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Direct Debits from Non-Irish Accounts

Yggr of Asgard

Breaking this off the Number 26 tread because maybe it's time we list the known acceptance/non acceptance.

Refusing to accept non-irish accounts

Sky see http://www.boards.ie/ttfthread/2057539002
GloHealth
Greenstar
Magnet Broadband (thanks to ceroc81)

Accepting non-irish accounts online

UPC
IDMobile

Accepting non-irish accounts via paper mandate

Energia (new)
Three
Zurich Insurance
AIG Insurance
Avantcard
Irish water (required verbal confirmation, thanks to ceroc81)

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aindriu80

It Worked !

Having discussed this issue with a colleague of mine I can confirm that we can in fact take payments from non Irish banks once the bank accepts SEPA ( Single Euro Payments Area ) Payments.

I have attached a Mandate form for you to fill out ......

So I guess you can add Just Energy to the list, thanks for the help!

Rock Paper Scissors

Alright lads,

A few months ago I tried to switch my mortgage payments with Ulster Bank to N26.

Tried over the phone, online and via paper mandate.

They told me it could't be done because of a technial limitation and that they only accept Irish IBANS.

I filed a complaint with the complaints department which took 2 months to complete but today I received a letter in the post informing me that they can now accept my N26 IBAN and I also received a cheque for €50

During the 2 months that they took to complete their "investigation" I closed my Ulster Current account and switch to KBC.

Drinks are on ulster Bank tonight

Cheers lads

advertsfox

Slightly related but DPD / Parcel Wizard will not accept my N26 Mastercard account. They appear to use SagePay by the error code referenced.

aindriu80

GoMo the new Irish mobile phone company doesn't take direct debits from Mastercard of N26. 21st century? Complete joke. Fire off a complaint at complaints@gomo.ie

TheChizler

That's a declined card problem, not a direct debit problem though. Related I suppose. As an aside you can change your payment details to N26 after the registration payment is taken, no idea what'll happen when it goes to debit the card for the bill though.

aindriu80

It's still an IBAN problem, I don't have an irish bank account to switch from later. I contacted the Central Bank of Ireland, seen this:

https://www.centralbank.ie/financial-system/payments-and-securities-settlements/irish-retail-payments-forum/iban-discrimination

They told me the following and to contact Complaints@ccpc.ie

The Competition and Consumer Protection Commission (CCPC) has been appointed the competent authority to deal with non-compliance with SEPA regulations by parties other than financial services providers and employers. Further information on SEPA can be found on www.bpfi.ie or you can contact the CCPC at www.ccpc.ie

TheChizler

aindriu80 wrote: »

It's still an IBAN problem, I don't have an irish bank account to switch from later. I contacted the Central Bank of Ireland, seen this:

https://www.centralbank.ie/financial-system/payments-and-securities-settlements/irish-retail-payments-forum/iban-discrimination

They told me the following and to contact Complaints@ccpc.ie

Are you sure? I can't find any way to make credit transfers as payments to GoMo, just card.

Yggr of Asgard

aindriu80 wrote: »

It's still an IBAN problem, I don't have an irish bank account to switch from later. I contacted the Central Bank of Ireland, seen this: ....

You might want to open a separate thread about this because the rules for direct debits are very clear however for payment cards they are not.

Payment cards are actually excluded from the original scope of the regulation unless the card is only used to extract IBAN account numbers to convert the transactions into a Direct Debit.

This is a common method in Germany and regulations exist which must give the customer the choice when they present the card if they want to have this done as direct debit or card transaction.

Merchants can still limit the card types they want to use when accepting card payments (like only debit but not credit or only standard, not premium) and as part of that, they can also restrict it to cards that do AVS (Address verification) or Secure Authentications which your card might not do.

GoMo only accepts card transactions (not direct debit) so you are not in the right thread. GoMo also accepts the non-Irish card without AVS or Secure Authentications once you have signed up (you can change it online), it looks like they only need a card that has certain features during sign up to prevent fraud.

Good luck with the CCPC.

Yggr of Asgard

aindriu80 wrote: »

GoMo the new Irish mobile phone company doesn't take direct debits from Mastercard of N26. 21st century? Complete joke. Fire off a complaint at complaints@gomo.ie

GoMo does not take direct debits at all.

They only charge payment cards, and while you might perceive it as "direct debit" it is not. It's a reoccurring charge authorization to a payment card and processed via the card payment network, not the direct debit network.

And I appreciate that gomo claims that " direct debit " is what they are doing on their invoice but that is technically / legally not correct. They are not converting card details into a direct debit under the regulation. Sloppy use of terms there by them.

aindriu80

TheChizler wrote: »

Are you sure? I can't find any way to make credit transfers as payments to GoMo, just card.

I'm not 100% sure but I'm dragging this thread off topic.

GoMo Complaints replied back to me "I'm sorry this happened, I will pass your feedback on and hopefully this will be updated in future". I'm still waiting on CCPC.

I didn't know that cards were excluded from the regulation, it makes little sense to me why payments have to be verified like this, they could require a months payment in advance or something.

cefh17

aindriu80 wrote: »

I'm not 100% sure but I'm dragging this thread off topic.

GoMo Complaints replied back to me "I'm sorry this happened, I will pass your feedback on and hopefully this will be updated in future". I'm still waiting on CCPC.

I didn't know that cards were excluded from the regulation, it makes little sense to me why payments have to be verified like this, they could require a months payment in advance or something.

That's weird because I used my N26 to sign up to them, first "DD" bill will be tomorrow so we'll see

cefh17

cefh17 wrote: »

That's weird because I used my N26 to sign up to them, first "DD" bill will be tomorrow so we'll see

Payment processed

aindriu80

cefh17 wrote: »

Payment processed

just tried it there and it went through, must have fixed it.

Yggr of Asgard

The Central Bank has published consumer advice

https://centralbank.ie/consumer-hub/explainers/what-is-iban-discrimination-and-what-can-i-do-about-it

Nice summary but the usual contact the CCPC for issues

[Deleted User]

Yggr of Asgard wrote: »

The Central Bank has published consumer advice...

The Central Bank have failed to enforce their own 'IBAN discrimination' rules with BOI. Who still have not updated their Standing Order system and are still accepting Standard 18 EFT files, which is a breach of an EU directive.

Elysium1

Thanks OP for setting up this thread.

I've recently been testing Revolut, and after many problems I've switched to N26.

A few companies I've tested who accept by N26 (both rejected Revolut):
Netflix
PlayStation Network

One company who won't accept N26 IBAN online (Revolut did):
Three

I've used a few times since getting my card a few days ago and so far so good. I'll know in a month or so.

I'm amazed at how many others were triggered by Ulster Bank, like me. I can't imagine how many customers they lost.

Question:

How do people get around the 'no account number, the IBAN won't break up into one' issue? I've one service who insist on using an account number and BIC and don't accept other methods of payment (*eye roll*). N26's IBANS don't break up either I see?

Yggr of Asgard

Three will accept a paper based mandate once you signed up or you can go instore where they will help you if you want to sign up.

As to your question about breakup into account/sort code, that is not a practice that should happen (and only was applicable for Irish accounts), but sometimes still does. They are required to accept any SEPA compliant IBAN account, so it's their problem not yours that they years after the deadline they still have not updated their systems. Name and Shame!

Elysium1

Roger that!

Energie Fitness (gym, UK company) won't accept anything other than account number and BIC. I'm battling this by 'informative, friendly, but cop-the-f-on emails).

I've also jumped on the 'IBAN discrinination' train. When the number of companies rejecting Revolut added up, some of them quoting the country as the problem (Netflix, Littlewoods Ireland), I contacted the European Consumer Centre and they emailed a lovely, full reply, not a shi**y 'we can't be ar*sed reply' and said it's IBAN discrimination and went into detail. For Irish-based companies, lodge a complaint with the CCPC.

But there are some days when I wonder do I take things too far...if a friend or family member had big issues with a company, by the time they've finished their tea explaining it, I've already drafted the complaint email! Netflix took N26 no problem so I'll cancel the attack!

With Revolut, half of the problem may have been that they're not a full bank, and the cards are prepay. The other half is indeed IBAN discrimination. Where the lines blur. Anyway N26 is good so far.

Jim2007

QUOTE=Tow;111755855]The Central Bank have failed to enforce their own 'IBAN discrimination' rules with BOI. Who still have not updated their Standing Order system and are still accepting Standard 18 EFT files, which is a breach of an EU directive.[/QUOTE]

Yggr of Asgard wrote: »

They are required to accept any SEPA compliant IBAN account, so it's their problem not yours that they years after the deadline they still have not updated their systems. Name and Shame!

Don't confuse Standing Orders and Direct Debits. Standing Orders are offered only in Germany, The Netherlands, Spain, UK & Ireland and are outside the SEPA requirements.

Bob24

Jim2007 wrote: »

Don't confuse Standing Orders and Direct Debits. Standing Orders are offered only in Germany, The Netherlands, Spain, UK & Ireland and are outside the SEPA requirements.

I haven’t banked in every single EZ country, but I can quote at least another country where standing orders are available (France). I would be surprised if it is not also offered in other countries as it seems like a pretty basic/essential payment instrument (for exemple for someone to pay their rent every month to their landlord).

Having said that, yes you are perfectly right standing orders are not considered a regulated payment instrument under SEPA regulations, so banks are under no obligation to offer standing orders to foreign IBANs even if they offer them for national IBANs. What is regulated is SCTs (SEPA credit transfers - i.e. once off payments as opposed to recurring payments).

Yggr of Asgard

Jim2007 wrote:

Don't confuse Standing Orders and Direct Debits. Standing Orders are offered only in Germany, The Netherlands, Spain, UK & Ireland and are outside the SEPA requirements.

I don’t think I confused anything there as my reply was to Elysium1 about his specific problem about breaking up an IBAN into sort code and account number.

[Deleted User]

Elysium1 wrote: »

Roger that!

Energie Fitness (gym, UK company) won't accept anything other than account number and BIC. I'm battling this by 'informative, friendly, but cop-the-f-on emails).

I've also jumped on the 'IBAN discrinination' train. When the number of companies rejecting Revolut added up, some of them quoting the country as the problem (Netflix, Littlewoods Ireland), I contacted the European Consumer Centre and they emailed a lovely, full reply, not a shi**y 'we can't be ar*sed reply' and said it's IBAN discrimination and went into detail. For Irish-based companies, lodge a complaint with the CCPC.

But there are some days when I wonder do I take things too far...if a friend or family member had big issues with a company, by the time they've finished their tea explaining it, I've already drafted the complaint email! Netflix took N26 no problem so I'll cancel the attack!

With Revolut, half of the problem may have been that they're not a full bank, and the cards are prepay. The other half is indeed IBAN discrimination. Where the lines blur. Anyway N26 is good so far.

You sure Netflix won’t accept your Revolut. Half of boards are paying for Netflix from various different reasons using Revolut (check bathing alerts thread).

Edit: Why are you setting it up as a direct debit rather than just a card payment? Probably why it works for most but not you.

Bob24

Jesse Grumpy Remote wrote: »

Edit: Why are you setting it up as a direct debit rather than just a card payment? Probably why it works for most but not you.

I am assuming to OP is talking about card payments here (do Netflix even offer DD payements?), and when they say IBAN discrimination they probably rather mean blocking payment cards based on the country of the issuing bank or the billing country for the card holder.

[Deleted User]

Bob24 wrote: »

I am assuming to OP is talking about card payments here (do Netflix even offer DD payements?), and when they say IBAN discrimination they probably rather mean blocking payment cards based on the country of the issuing bank or the billing country for the card holder.

Exactly that’s why I’m confused as using Revolut to pay for Netflix is common.

[Deleted User]

Jim2007 wrote: »

Don't confuse Standing Orders and Direct Debits. Standing Orders are offered only in Germany, The Netherlands, Spain, UK & Ireland and are outside the SEPA requirements.

Standing orders are automated credit transfers, managed by your bank. All credit transfers are supposed to be SEPA Credit Transfers (SCT) using PAIN.001. BOI have not bothered to update their backend systemsto accept IBANs.
In simple terms they just convert back and forwards between IBANs and account numbers etc. You are right, Standing Orders are not covered by the directive, I complained several years ago to the EPC and they said they could do nothing about it.

The solution is to use an other bank.

Bob24

Tow wrote: »

The solution is to use an other bank.

And not AIB either as they also don’t support standing orders to non-Irish IBAN. Even worse: they only let you save beneficiary IBANs for Irish accounts (not for other SEPA accounts), and SCTs to non-Irish IBANs are not supported in the mobile App (only on the desktop website, and it requires the use of a proprietary AIB authentication device). I don’t think they are in breach of the regulation doing that, but they are clearly making it much harder to issue SCTs to non-Irish accounts and are probably walking on the very edge of the regulation in terms of what is legally allowed.

user1842

Bob24 wrote: »

and SCTs to non-Irish IBANs are not supported in the mobile App (only on the desktop website, and it requires the use of a proprietary AIB authentication device).

If true this looks like a breach of the regulation to me. It is like making a person go into a branch to make a payment to an non-Irish EU IBAN.

I would suggest for you to complain to the Central Bank, not the CCPC (the CCPC only deals with companies for IBAN discrimination cases. The Central Bank deals with the PSPs)

Bob24

user1842 wrote: »

If true this looks like a breach of the regulation to me. It is like making a person go into a branch to make a payment to an non-Irish EU IBAN.

I would suggest for you to complain to the Central Bank, not the CCPC (the CCPC only deals with companies for IBAN discrimination cases. The Central Bank deals with the PSPs)

It is definitely true - First hand experience here and others have complained about the same thing on the forum.

But I won’t bother with the CBI; no chance they’ll do something about it IMO. I agree what AIB is doing definitely is against the spirit of SEPA, but as long as they are offering electronic SCTs and not charging for them I don’t think they are in breach of the regulation, even though accessibility to the service isn’t as as easy as for transfers Irish accounts.

user1842

Bob24 wrote: »

It is definitely true - First hand experience here and others have complained about the same thing on the forum.

But I won’t bother with the CBI; no chance they’ll do something about it IMO. I agree what AIB is doing definitely is against the spirit of SEPA, but as long as they are offering electronic SCTs and not charging for them I don’t think they are in breach of the regulation, even though accessibility to the service isn’t as as easy as for transfers Irish accounts.

Please do complain to the CBI, it is their job to enforce the regulation. I would drop an email to enquiries@centralbank.ie

Or if you want to go directly to the European Commission:

https://ec.europa.eu/assets/sg/report-a-breach/complaints_en/

Let either body decide if it is a breach of REG 260/2012

The only way things change is if people complain to the correct bodies (you may not think it but i believe they do listen)

Elysium1

Jesse Grumpy Remote wrote: »

You sure Netflix won’t accept your Revolut. Half of boards are paying for Netflix from various different reasons using Revolut (check bathing alerts thread).

Edit: Why are you setting it up as a direct debit rather than just a card payment? Probably why it works for most but not you.

As it happens, I asked Netflix about this, I said, can I ask are other people paying Netflix OK - they said yes. I don't know what the heck that's about! All I know is, I've had 6-7 bank accounts in various countries, the only one that ever gave me hassle was Revolut. At least 8+ companies online including bills and also shops didn't accept it, some (Littlewoods Ireland and another I can't remember) said they refused to accept Revolut as payment full stop. The reactions I got to Revolut over the phone told me a lot. The fact that I had to problem-solve my f*cking bank account from Day 1 was a great reason to leave it behind. Who needs that sh*t.

*apologies for the rant, Revolut makes me mad*

I wanted to ask an N26 question but I see there's another thread. This one looks more for DDs.