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Brexit discussion thread XII (Please read OP before posting)

ancapailldorcha

This is the twelfth incarnation of our Brexit discussion thread.

I appreciate that the end of Brexit is or may be in sight (insofar as one can be certain) but please bear the following in mind before posting:

Insults directed at popular figures are not acceptable in this forum
Please do not post memes, videos or comedy links here
Please do not be uncivil to other posters
Please use the report function to alert the mods when necessary
Discussion of Sinn Féin's longstanding policy of abstention from Westminster is not suitable for this thread. Posts on this subject may be deleted

Previous thread is here:

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2058016732

United Ireland thread:

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2058014553

Scottish Independence thread:

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2058023269

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Imreoir2

Deleted User wrote: »

Why do people trash Johnson for being a liar?

We know he's a liar, so are virtually all politicians - including all leaders of opposing political parties.

What I want is a leader, and if that means using constructive deception, then I'm all for it.

For the same reason that all religions are based on a fairytale, but even then they are not all the Church of Scientology or the Westborough Baptist Church.

Johnson is exceptional within his context.

If you are all for being lied to, then I have this bridge I would like to sell you...

prawnsambo

Deleted User wrote: »

I would rather have a morally imperfect leader, than a morally perfect politician who lacks leadership qualities and potential.

Whilst I acknowledge Johnson's personal flaws, I think his capacity to be a quality, long-term leader in the interests of the UK, are exceptional.

To quote Daniel Hannan in his recent Telegraph article, we "know Boris to be brilliant".

I might be inclined to agree with you, but so far Johnson has made a complete mess of things. His double prorogation cost him time in the HoC that lost him the chance to get his deal passed. Now he's in an extension that he didn't want but must have in order to fight an election and get his deal through. And that could backfire on him too.

But Daniel Hannan calling him brilliant is a very low bar. Everybody is brilliant when measured against Hannan.

Christy42

Deleted User wrote: »

I would rather have a morally imperfect leader, than a morally perfect politician who lacks leadership qualities and potential.

Whilst I acknowledge Johnson's personal flaws, I think his capacity to be a quality, long-term leader in the interests of the UK, are exceptional.

To quote Daniel Hannan in his recent Telegraph article, we "know Boris to be brilliant".

Boris is a morally a perfect politician who also lacks leadership and potential.

He had a qualified majority when he took over and people got so sick of him they left the party. Pretty rubbish leader if you ask me.

He is out for himself and no one else. In the end it is the poor of the UK who will suffer the most. His interested are not those of the UK. As has already been shown with the Brexit debacle.

Rjd2

https://twitter.com/RobDotHutton/status/1191361707047899136

JRM's name booed at an erm Brexit party event. Its going very well indeed.

Professor Moriarty

Deleted User wrote: »

I would rather have a morally imperfect leader, than a morally perfect politician who lacks leadership qualities and potential.

Whilst I acknowledge Johnson's personal flaws, I think his capacity to be a quality, long-term leader in the interests of the UK, are exceptional.

To quote Daniel Hannan in his recent Telegraph article, we "know Boris to be brilliant".

Ah Jaysus. Getting endorsed by Hannan is like getting a reference from Fred West.

Professor Moriarty

Rjd2 wrote: »

https://twitter.com/RobDotHutton/status/1191361707047899136

JRM's name booed at an erm Brexit party event. Its going very well indeed.

Divide and conquer.

[Deleted User]

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Ah Jaysus. Getting endorsed by Hannan is like getting a reference from Fred West.

Hannan is a very impressive intellectual. Why trash his reputation?

trellheim

Whilst I acknowledge Johnson's personal flaws, I think his capacity to be a quality, long-term leader in the interests of the UK, are exceptional.

What are those qualities ? In a crunch he runs away (see Heathrow's 3rd Runway, May's deal). He is on record for encouraging a journalist be beaten up and falsely said nazanin was training journalists while he was foreign secretary. You may not wish to bring private lives into this but he's even misled the queen.

He only has a deal because Leo gave him a deal

thats a 30second list of the top stuff ....

[Deleted User]

trellheim wrote: »

What are those qualities ? In a crunch he runs away (see Heathrow's 3rd Runway, May's deal). He is on record for encouraging a journalist be beaten up and falsely said nazanin was training journalists while he was foreign secretary. You may not wish to bring private lives into this but he's even misled the queen.

He only has a deal because Leo gave him a deal

thats a 30second list of the top stuff ....

I don't think anyone on boards.ie, including myself, or very, very few people throughout Europe, could possibly achieve anything close to what Mr Johnson has achieved in his life.

A thoroughly impressive resume, and very few could come close to it.

CelticRambler

Imreoir2 wrote: »

For the same reason that all religions are based on a fairytale ...

Not true. Most religions are based on principles of best practice for community living with the "fairytale" as you call it used as a way to explain what was, at the time, inexplicable. Additional practices and beliefs often came to be grafted on to the original tenets over time, often being the reason for a subsequent schism as people tried to "get back to basics".

I think what you mean to refer to are cults (like Scientology) established by Vested Interests with no clear raison d'être other than "trust me, it's for your own good". In that sense, Brexit is a perfect example of a modern-day cult: it is ill defined and has no logical basis for its existence, but it's believers, once indoctrinated, will reject every attempt to convince them otherwise.

Professor Moriarty

Deleted User wrote: »

Hannan is a very impressive intellectual. Why trash his reputation?

I don't have to trash his reputation, he's done that himself. You obviously know nothing about the man. Hint: He founded Vote Leave and the ERG.

[Deleted User]

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

I don't have to trash his reputation, he's done that himself. You obviously know nothing about the man. Hint: He founded Vote Leave and the ERG.

I've been following his career in detail over the past 5 years or so, and I have a good idea of what he has done/worked on; both politically and personally.

As for founding Vote Leave and the ERG, I don't consider that a bad thing. In fact, these are innovations that have sought to save a genuine form of Brexit.

Hannan backs the Boris deal, and so do I.

trellheim

A thoroughly impressive resume, and very few could come close to it.

Reported for trolling

Professor Moriarty

Deleted User wrote: »

I've been following his career in detail over the past 5 years or so, and I have a good idea of what he has done/worked on; both politically and personally.

As for founding Vote Leave and the ERG, I don't consider that a bad thing. In fact, these are innovations that have sought to save a genuine form of Brexit.

Hannan backs the Boris deal, and so do I.

Vote Leave was admirable? Grand.

LuckyLloyd

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I would rather have a morally imperfect leader, than a morally perfect politician who lacks leadership qualities and potential.

Whilst I acknowledge Johnson's personal flaws, I think his capacity to be a quality, long-term leader in the interests of the UK, are exceptional.

To quote Daniel Hannan in his recent Telegraph article, we "know Boris to be brilliant".

Do we? I must say I find the only thing “brilliant” about him is his shamelessness.

CelticRambler

Deleted User wrote: »

I don't think anyone on boards.ie, including myself, or very, very few people throughout Europe, could possibly achieve anything close to what Mr Johnson has achieved in his life.

A thoroughly impressive resume, and very few could come close to it.

What unmatched impressive things has Johnson achieved in his life? Is this going to be another one of your "say it and run away" statements? I'm still waiting for you to explain what you mean by the EU being "distant".

[Deleted User]

trellheim wrote: »

Reported for trolling

That's absurd.

I understand that this forum is replete with pro-EU forces, but you have to accept that there are different points of view out there, including respectable Conservative opinions, that one can hold.

I myself identify with that tradition, and I think Daniel Hannan is an exceptional exponent of the advantages of classical liberalism and, whether or not you approve of his Vote Leave/ERG association, you should at least judge his political views based on evidence and argument.

In terms of Boris, yes, he has demonstrated a sharp intellect throughout his career. That's indisputable. Again, he does not approximate to omnibenevolence, but he does have immense qualities and any objective assessment of his resume would acknowledge these qualities.

Tea Shock

Daniel Hannan - He who claimed Fianna Fail won every Irish election since independence until 2011 - and lost in 2011, not because of the banking collapse, but because of a pro-EU stance unpopular in Ireland

Impressive intellectual indeed!

prawnsambo

Deleted User wrote: »

Hannan is a very impressive intellectual. Why trash his reputation?

If Hannan is an intellectual, he must have been having an off day when he spouted the rubbish about Fianna Fail being in power for the entire duration of Irish Independence until Enda Kenny became Taoiseach. A wittering that earned him a moment on Twitter with the hashtag #HannanIrishHistory.

And who thought that an EFTA type agreement was possible after the brexit vote, forgetting (or not knowing) that A50 specifically leaves the future relationship until after the WA period has expired. And he's still under the impression that this was somehow possible.

There's lots more, but I think the case is made.

Edit: And this. Which is an outright lie or complete misunderstanding of UK law. You choose.

jm08

Deleted User wrote: »

Why do people trash Johnson for being a liar?

We know he's a liar, so are virtually all politicians - including all leaders of opposing political parties.

What I want is a leader, and if that means using constructive deception, then I'm all for it.

I don't think that all politicians are liars is actually true. Most are decent people who want to do the best they can for the people they represent. I might not always agree with what they say or what they want to do, but thats ok I think.

CelticRambler

Deleted User wrote: »

I understand that this forum is replete with pro-EU forces, but you have to accept that there are different points of view out there, including respectable Conservative opinions, that one can hold.

The only reason this forum is "replete with pro-EU forces" (forces?

) is because this forum requires that arguments are backed up with reliable evidence. The many pro-Brexit/anti-EU members who have joined in the discussion, like yourself, insist on making unsubstantiated, subjective statements, refuse to answer questions, refuse to clarify specific points, and eventually either get fed up and leave, or get thrown out for not abiding by the forum charter.

If you have a different point of view, state your case and provide proper examples that we can discuss instead of hiding behind "it's my opinion ..."

CelticRambler

Deleted User wrote: »

In terms of Boris, yes, he has demonstrated a sharp intellect throughout his career. That's indisputable.

It is disputable because you haven't identified one single example of this supposed sharp intellect.

Leroy42

Eskimohunt, I would e interested in what you think Johnson achievements are that you have placed him on such a pedestal?

[Deleted User]

CelticRambler wrote: »

The only reason this forum is "replete with pro-EU forces" (forces? ) is because this forum requires that arguments are backed up with reliable evidence. The many pro-Brexit/anti-EU members who have joined in the discussion, like yourself, insist on making unsubstantiated, subjective statements, refuse to answer questions, refuse to clarify specific points, and eventually either get fed up and leave, or get thrown out for not abiding by the forum charter.

If you have a different point of view, state your case and provide proper examples that we can discuss instead of hiding behind "it's my opinion ..."

At the end of the day, one person's intellectual is another person's fraud. No amount of evidence I adduce will be sufficient to persuade pro-EU forces.

In terms of answering questions, it's difficult to reply to every query. If you are one of the few pro-Brexit forces in this forum, it's expected that every action I take will be greeted by a very high reaction - and it's often not feasible to address every question with the time it would deserve.

trellheim

No amount of evidence I adduce will be sufficient to persuade pro-EU forces.

I disagreed with nearly everything Theresa May did; nevertheless I accepted she believed she was relatively honest and did her duty as she saw it.

prawnsambo

Deleted User wrote: »

At the end of the day, one person's intellectual is another person's fraud. No amount of evidence I adduce will be sufficient to persuade pro-EU forces.

In terms of answering questions, it's difficult to reply to every query. If you are one of the few pro-Brexit forces in this forum, it's expected that every action I take will be greeted by a very high reaction - and it's often not feasible to address every question with the time it would deserve.

It's kind of a requirement here that you don't just dump opinions without any factual basis for them.

On the subject of Boris Johnson, I could say he's been a failure at every political role he took apart from winning elections. I would back that up by saying his tenure as Mayor of London was a succession of failures, cut police numbers to the bone, firefighting servces ditto and blew hundreds of millions of taxpayer's money on vanity projects (Boris Bus, Garden Bridge, water cannon and funicular that's hardly used), most of which were failures or never got off the ground. His tenure as Foreign Secretary was marked by gaffes, mistakes and by all accounts, extreme laziness.

[Deleted User]

CelticRambler wrote: »

It is disputable because you haven't identified one single example of this supposed sharp intellect.

Leroy42 wrote: »

Eskimohunt, I would e interested in what you think Johnson achievements are that you have placed him on such a pedestal?

prawnsambo wrote: »

It's kind of a requirement here that you don't just dump opinions without any factual basis for them.

Basically, I believe that there are certain kinds of people that rise to the top in business or politics. Many would say that such persons have "psychopathic" tendencies, not a movie-style psychopathy, but the more clinical definition that you find from reputable psychologists and psychiatrists.

Boris Johnson demonstrates those skills. For instance, it's not coincidental that he excelled at Oxford, both academically and as leader of the Union; that he is gifted in the art of language, oratory, and the classics; that he understands and applies charisma; that he is a talented author; that he has applied himself in different roles and, whilst he may not have made the most optimum choices at all times, that is true of everyone; and that he became Prime Minister.

It takes a special kind of person to map out that career; with distinct and rare skill. It also takes a certain kind of intelligence to navigate a life in that upward direction. The vast majority of people just sit in the distance, pointing the finger of blame without achieving anything close. So for all his faults, and there are many, I think there is merit in the description I have given, and, through any objective assessment, you should find some common ground of agreement.

[Deleted User]

If you're in a position where your replies will arouse such interest that you don't have time to answer all queries, put more effort into those replies.

"Johnson has great qualities." or whatever you said didn't actually give us anything.

"The EU has great qualities." would be met with the exact same requests for backup on a pro-Brexit forum.

[Deleted User]

Deleted User wrote: »

If you're in a position where your replies will arouse such interest that you don't have time to answer all queries, put more effort into those replies.

"Johnson has great qualities." or whatever you said didn't actually give us anything.

"The EU has great qualities." would be met with the exact same requests for backup on a pro-Brexit forum.

And after much request, I've offered my grounds for that belief above.

hometruths

I don't particularly like Boris Johnson but the idea that he is thick is complete nonsense. The fact that he achieved academic scholarships to both Eton and Oxford is sufficient evidence for me to consider him of above average intelligence.

And whilst I understand the point of view that he was a poor Foreign Secretary in terms of results, in terms of political career advancement it is inarguable that his next role of Prime Minister was a promotion.

I think it is laughable to say that the current UK Prime Minister is a failed politician.