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Brexit discussion thread XII (Please read OP before posting)

ancapailldorcha

This is the twelfth incarnation of our Brexit discussion thread.

I appreciate that the end of Brexit is or may be in sight (insofar as one can be certain) but please bear the following in mind before posting:

Insults directed at popular figures are not acceptable in this forum
Please do not post memes, videos or comedy links here
Please do not be uncivil to other posters
Please use the report function to alert the mods when necessary
Discussion of Sinn Féin's longstanding policy of abstention from Westminster is not suitable for this thread. Posts on this subject may be deleted

Previous thread is here:

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2058016732

United Ireland thread:

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2058014553

Scottish Independence thread:

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2058023269

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CelticRambler

volchitsa wrote: »

Macron and other European leaders will surely want this sorted before their own elections start looming. I think time is going to start running out for the British because the other EU leaders won't want to have Brexit as a running sore in their own political battles.

Nah. Most EU electorates don't really care what's happening in the UK, and from this side of the Channel, it's dead easy for any politician to deflect the situation as "the Brits at it again" on their own island. Here in France, there's nothing about Brexit that comes close to the many domestic issues about which Macron will have to defend his action or inaction come the next election.

Mr.Wemmick

Deleted User wrote: »

You're wrong.

It's almost as if you want the story to be true.

The idea that the NHS will slowly crumble, disappear and become the PHS, Privatised Health Service, is for the birds.

The general public, through the ballot box, would put an end to it.

True, there may well be sneaky attempts, here and there, for some degree of privatisation. I just don't believe, for the reasons hitherto made, that it will go any further than that.

You're saying they would be stopped by the ballot box? Lol.

A country/people who voted for brexit against their better judgment and put themselves and their economy in harm's way.. led by far-right, government influenced media that tell the public what to do and how to vote.

I can see the head lines now: Save our precious NHS by allowing us to sell it.

Right you are. :rolleyes:

[Deleted User]

Mr.Wemmick wrote: »

You're saying they would be stopped by the ballot box? Lol.

A country who voted for brexit against their better judgment and put themselves and their economy in harm's way.. led by far-right, government influenced media that tell them what to do and how to vote.

The BBC is far-right?

That's a first.

That type of comment demonstrates the complete lack of proportion of many Remainers, who refuse to accept the result of the British people.

Furthermore, Euroscepticism has a leg in both Left and Right; it's not owned by the "far-right", and Euroscepticism does not make one a fascist overnight.

CelticRambler

Deleted User wrote: »

The idea that the NHS will slowly crumble, disappear and become the PHS, Privatised Health Service, is for the birds.

The general public, through the ballot box, would put an end to it.

True, there may well be sneaky attempts, here and there, for some degree of privatisation. I just don't believe, for the reasons hitherto made, that it will go any further than that.

Oh dear ... :rolleyes:

Sorry eskimo, but you're the one who's wrong. Do you have any direct contacts in the NHS? Because I do, and they all report what Mr.Wemmick says. Funnily enough, you'll even find tacit acknowledgement of this from some surprising quarters, e.g.:

Deleted User wrote: »

I didn't state that privatisation hasn't happened to date, because it has.

My position is that no government would privatise the NHS en masse, to then reap the dire political consequences that would inevitably ensue.

The stark reality is that the NHS is being slowly privatised bit by bit, and the reason the public aren't rising up in fierce indignation is because it is being done sneakily, and (believe it or not) many people in the private sector are making money out of it.

For additional reading, go looking for reliable articles on why so-called superbug infections are rising in UK hospitals and see if you can see the (glaringly obvious) link between that and privatised hospital construction and management, outsourced cleaning services, agency nurses and perpetual buck-passing.

Now add in to the mix a sudden, dramatic shortage of EU migrant workers due to Brexit. What do you think the government is going to do? Pledge a massive amount of money to train unmotivated young Brits to do work they've conciously avoided up to now, or offer a fistful of contracts as part of the next "easiest trade deal in history" ?

Hint: they've got away with it several times already with no voter backlash.

[Deleted User]

CelticRambler wrote: »

The stark reality is that the NHS is being slowly privatised bit by bit, and the reason the public aren't rising up in fierce indignation is because it is being done sneakily, and (believe it or not) many people in the private sector are making money out of it.

Are you suggesting that, perhaps in 10-20 years, the NHS will be almost entirely privatised?

Dyr

CelticRambler wrote: »

For additional reading, go looking for reliable articles on why so-called superbug infections are rising in UK hospitals and see if you can see the (glaringly obvious) link between that and privatised hospital construction and management, outsourced cleaning services, agency nurses and perpetual buck-passing.

I assume that these superbugs are not also rising in our wonderful publically funded hospitals?

[Deleted User]

VinLieger wrote: »

In your opinion.

Any examples where the EU has impinged on you in a substantive way to explain this position?

Why?

So a cooperating union of european nations....

Yes, my opinion. I tend not to ventriloquise other people.

Even if the EU passed legislation that made my life 10x easier, I would still disapprove of the institutions. It's the principle that matters, not how it would personally benefit me. It would be the height of solipsism to formulate my political views based on personal advantage.

Yes, a cooperating union of European nations, not a centralised system of power that craves yet more power.

It's really not that difficult to understand.

Mr.Wemmick

Deleted User wrote: »

The BBC is far-right?

That's a first.

That type of comment demonstrates the complete lack of proportion of many Remainers, who refuse to accept the result of the British people.

Furthermore, Euroscepticism has a leg in both Left and Right; it's not owned by the "far-right", and Euroscepticism does not make one a fascist overnight.

Let's ignore the daily heil, and the extreme torygraph journos and find the softer Beeb and run with a wee-bit of whataboutery, shall we? We have all had enough of the right media with their anti irish xenophobic hatred in recent months.. but no, let's ignore that and centre it all and normalise the hatred that belongs to brexiteer propaganda.

Brexit has very little to do with the EU and everything to do with the tory sh!t show and their power to control.

bazermc

Farage and his Union Jack socks on the Andrew Marr show. Hilarious

[Deleted User]

Mr.Wemmick wrote: »

Brexit has very little to do with the EU and everything to do with the tory sh!t show and their power to control.

Brexit signals the return of the nation-state.

It's back, and people may as well get used to it.

Mr.Wemmick

Deleted User wrote: »

Brexit signals the return of the nation-state.

It's back, and people may as well get used to it.

No it's not.

Brexit would be turned on its head if voted on again.

Strazdas

Deleted User wrote: »

Brexit signals the return of the nation-state.

It's back, and people may as well get used to it.

The UK trying to become the North Korea of Europe does not signal the return of the nation state. It already looks like a disastrous failed experiment.

prawnsambo

Deleted User wrote: »

Brexit signals the return of the nation-state.

It's back, and people may as well get used to it.

Nope. It's a purely English thing. Rooted in the loss of empire and the rejection of the new paradigm that doesn't have them ruling the waves. Everyone else has moved on. They'll get over it eventually.

volchitsa

Deleted User wrote: »

Are you suggesting that, perhaps in 10-20 years, the NHS will be almost entirely privatised?

Only the profitable parts. Minor surgery, births for wealthy families, fertility treatment, and of course drug procurement. People won't see that because they don't see the bills for the drugs they get.

If NICE can no longer negotiate costs actively and has to accept the price the drugs companies set (which is currently the case in the US and explains a large part of their massive healthcare bill) individual patients won't know that ten years ago the drugs they need would have been made available to the NHS for a fraction of the price. How could they know that - they don't know the costs today.

Dyr

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Very little choice in most cases.

And yes - the scourge of nationalism has caused untold misery across Europe but the fact remains that post Fall of Rome the overall trend has been towards consolidation.

I do enjoy when people swap Nationalism out for Imperialism and hope that no one notices

prawnsambo

volchitsa wrote: »

Only the profitable parts. Minor surgery, births for wealthy families, fertility treatment, and of course drug procurement. People won't see that because they don't see the bills for the drugs they get.

If NICE can no longer negotiate costs actively and has to accept the price the drugs companies set (which is currently the case in the US and explains a large part of their massive healthcare bill) individual patients won't know that ten years ago the drugs they need would have been made available to the NHS for a fraction of the price. How could they know that - they don't know the costs today.

And here's an example of the current differences.

Capt'n Midnight

Deleted User wrote: »

The BBC is far-right?

That's a first.

So by your own admission most of the rest of the UK media apart from the BBC is right wing.

Thanks for clarifying that.

[Deleted User]

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

So by your own admission most of the rest of the UK media apart from the BBC is right wing.

Thanks for clarifying that.

What!?

Please explain how you can possibly derive that conclusion from my statement?

I doubt you will be able to do it.

[Deleted User]

prawnsambo wrote: »

And here's an example of the current differences.

https://twitter.com/JohnFielder1/status/1190899489831297024?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1190899489831297024&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.boards.ie%2Fvbulletin%2Fshowthread.php%3Fp%3D111675762

It would be hard to deny that the NHS is not going to suffer higher costs, but it will be combined with an explosion of private health insurance to finance these higher drug costs.

US corporates are going to have a field day.

looksee

I think you will find Daraprim is $750 not $7,500 per tablet. Still a silly amount of money reflecting immoral levels of greed.

fash

Deleted User wrote: »

Brexit signals the return of the nation-state.

It's back, and people may as well get used to it.

In the sense that brexit will end the United Kingdom of 4 separate nations and result in an independent Scotland and a United Ireland, I agree.

Kermit.de.frog

Strazdas wrote: »

The UK trying to become the North Korea of Europe does not signal the return of the nation state. It already looks like a disastrous failed experiment.

What a load of absolute rubbish.

Countries can be fully politically independent and do perfectly well with the capitalist system. They co-operate with their trading partners. They can also make themselves competitive.

You need to take a step back from EU propaganda.

prawnsambo

looksee wrote: »

I think you will find Daraprim is $750 not $7,500 per tablet. Still a silly amount of money reflecting immoral levels of greed.

And that's before you get into the horror story of medical devices that John Oliver revealed a few months ago.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-tIdzNlExrw

Joe_ Public

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

What a load of absolute rubbish.

Countries can be fully politically independent and do perfectly well with the capitalist system. They co-operate with their trading partners. They can also make themselves competitive.

You need to take a step back from EU propaganda.

Well pointed out. You are correct as North Korea has, far as i know, nothing to do with wto rules. As Mauritania is the only country that does trade solely on wto terms what the post should have said was uk is trying to become the Mauritania of Europe.

Professor Moriarty

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

What a load of absolute rubbish.

Countries can be fully politically independent and do perfectly well with the capitalist system. They co-operate with their trading partners. They can also make themselves competitive.

You need to take a step back from EU propaganda.

What a load of absolute rubbish.

Countries can be fully politically independent and do perfectly well within the EU. They co-operate with their trading partners. They can also make themselves competitive.

You need to take a step back from Trumpian capitalist propaganda.

[Deleted User]

Mr.Wemmick wrote: »

No it's not.

Brexit would be turned on its head if voted on again.

I disagree.

Evidence suggests that Leave would win by a bigger margin, and I would suspect many Remainers would opt to Leave simply to respect the result of the original referendum.

Strazdas wrote: »

The UK trying to become the North Korea of Europe does not signal the return of the nation state. It already looks like a disastrous failed experiment.

Can we have a sense of perspective here, please?

Sweden. United States of America. Iceland. South Africa. Australia. New Zealand. Singapore. Japan. South Korea.

All successful nation-states.

But when it comes to the UK, just uttering the words "nation-state" brings forth the vilest type of snobbery and, with it, the suggestion that it's all about Empire, fascism, and racism.

This is absurd thinking, and a clear double-standard.

prawnsambo wrote: »

Nope. It's a purely English thing. Rooted in the loss of empire and the rejection of the new paradigm that doesn't have them ruling the waves. Everyone else has moved on. They'll get over it eventually.

No, it's not.

See above. There is no shame in arguing for the nation-state and it doesn't carry with it the obscene implications carried by your post.

ancapailldorcha

Deleted User wrote: »

I disagree.

Evidence suggests that Leave would win by a bigger margin, and I would suspect many Remainers would opt to Leave simply to respect the result of the original referendum.

Can you link to this evidence, please?

Akrasia

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Let's take Donald Trump's words instead, who stated just 3 days ago in an interview with Mr Farage, that the NHS isn't up for discussion in any way, shape or form.

The reality is, even if figures in Washington are mooting the idea, it doesn't mean it will happen.

It won't.

It's a total red herring; the largest such herring produced by Remainers.

Why would you take the word of a pathological liar (Donald Trump)

[Deleted User]

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Can you link to this evidence, please?

Yes, here is the evidence that shows what I suggested - that a vote would be very close but, with enough scrutiny and debate over several months, I am confident that Johnson's deal would win and that this serves to Leave in some compromised capacity, whilst also respecting the result of the referendum.

If it was as clear to Remain as some have suggested, it would not be a tie.

Voters have also been asked what they would do if a referendum offered a choice between leaving the EU on the terms proposed by Mr Johnson or remaining in the EU.

Their responses reinforce the impression Mr Johnson's deal has divided the country.

Both Opinium and Survation have suggested the outcome of such a ballot would be a tie.

Joe_ Public

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I disagree.

Evidence suggests that Leave would win by a bigger margin, and I would suspect many Remainers would opt to Leave simply to respect the result of the original referendum.

Not to mention leavers voting to remain because they feel angry about being duped and lied to first time around.