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Brexit discussion thread XII (Please read OP before posting)

ancapailldorcha

This is the twelfth incarnation of our Brexit discussion thread.

I appreciate that the end of Brexit is or may be in sight (insofar as one can be certain) but please bear the following in mind before posting:

Insults directed at popular figures are not acceptable in this forum
Please do not post memes, videos or comedy links here
Please do not be uncivil to other posters
Please use the report function to alert the mods when necessary
Discussion of Sinn Féin's longstanding policy of abstention from Westminster is not suitable for this thread. Posts on this subject may be deleted

Previous thread is here:

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2058016732

United Ireland thread:

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2058014553

Scottish Independence thread:

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2058023269

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hotmail.com

Something creepy about Boris constantly photographed in schools.

quokula

VinLieger wrote: »

LOL she would stab him in the back or front politically, its a very common turn of phrase, seriously people taking things needlessly out of context is ridiculous.

Also complaining of her using the words "bantz" or "lads" as lowering the tone is just quite pathetic and this whole post reeks of looking to find problems with her in my opinion due to her simply being a woman with strong views.

Yes it's a metaphor that she would stab him. That doesn't mean it's not aggressive language and doesn't mean it's acceptable. You may think it's a common turn of phrase, but can you find another example, ever, in any country, of a politician publicly stating that they would stab their leader in the back or front, albeit metaphorically? Because I don't recall one. And if you do find one I'd be critical of them too, regardless of if they're male or female, because that has absolutely nothing to do with anything that was said.

briany

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Not so. Plenty of hardliners said May's deal was treachery, and they will feel the same way about Johnson's.

Then during 2020, we will have fun and games as the UK are bullied at trade talks - even talking to the EU will be viewed as treachery.

Then we'll have another No Deal cliff at the end of 2020, and the UK will have to extend for 2 years - the dogs in the street know they'd lose their shirts in any deal agreed in a year flat.

Then 2 more years of trade talks with the UK caving in to the EU.

Plenty of material for Farage to milk for the next 3+ years.

Yeah, May's deal got criticised primarily because it proposed an all-UK customs union for the transition period, and that's something Brexiteers could not abide by. The main thing you could criticise about Johnson's deal about (from the perspective of the general public) is that it 'weakens the union', but Brexit supporters on the UK mainland ultimately do not care about Northern Ireland or mind if there is a sea border. What matters to them is that *they* are out. And it appears that as of late, UK tabloids have shifted to calling NI and the DUP the main stumbling blocks to getting out.

If the BXP stay around after Brexit, they can of course continue to run on an anti-EU platform, but there comes a problem that if and when the UK faces an economic downturn, that the penny could drop and the public turns on Farage in a rather swift and nasty way. Farage would have to decide whether it's worth it to remain in the political round or retire to Hawaii.

quokula

Joe_ Public wrote: »

Just doesnt look as if there's going to be labour-lib dem cooperation so they just have to get on with their campaigns. The lib dem supporting website Best for Britain is advocating voters choose the LD candidate in marginal constituencies where they had as low as 4% in 2017 so thats an indication of how theyre proceeding. Lab needs to fight its own corner.

It's one thing confusing to cooperate, but this is blatantly dishonest.

They can say "vote for us because these are our policies and we believe they're better than Labour / Green / Whoever" and that would be fine, even if it proved counter productive for their Brexit policy. Labour and LD are equally guilty of this.

They can also say "vote for us because this is a Lib Dem / Tory marginal and even if you're a natural Labour voter it is the smart tactical choice", and that's legitimate in an actual marginal seat.

But to create a misleading poll and make that claim in a seat where they were a distant third behind Torys and Labour? That's just an out and out lie as bad as any you'd expect from the likes of Dominic Cummings.

VinLieger

quokula wrote: »

There are plenty of women in politics who are worthy of admiration and respect, she isn't above criticism just for being female.

My main observation of her narcissism came from an Andrew Neil politics show called This Week that I used to watch every Thursday night for years up until it was cancelled earlier this year.

They had politicians / ex-politicians on every week, Michael Portillo was the Conservative nearly 100% of the time, while Labour tended to rotate between 4 or 5 regulars and she was one of them. One of the segments was "what was your moment of the week" where each politician would name some event in global or national politics that they considered significant. Without fail, Jess Phillips would name something she personally did or was involved in, while nobody else was ever so self centred.

Was the thing she highlighted related to her specifically being great or an rather achievement on behalf of her constituents as one imo is narcissistic the other is not.

Also shock/horror if a politician turned out to be a narcissist.......

quokula wrote: »

In general though she would constantly insult other politicians and make inappropriate comments. As has been discussed on the previous pages, she was happy to go along with the metaphor of stabbing her own party leader, and even the less aggressive tweet posted on the previous page used terms like "Bantz" and "Lads" to describe other MPs which I find pretty disrespectful and definitely lowering of the tone.

LOL she would stab him in the back or front politically, its a very common turn of phrase, seriously people taking things needlessly out of context is ridiculous.

Also complaining of her using the words "bantz" or "lads" as lowering the tone is just quite pathetic and this whole post reeks of looking to find problems with her in my opinion due to her simply being a woman with strong views.

Fogmatic

Twister2 wrote: »

Boris "standing up for the police"

Will anyone fall for that bs

I suppose some do unfortunately, as it was ever thus. Every politician seems to call for an end to crime, poverty and unemployment, and for universal free medical care, free travel, world peace and probably better weather.

Shelga

VinLieger wrote: »

Any examples of this? ive only ever seen her get emotional when it comes to representing her constituents interests or use aggressive language again when representing her constituents interests or in response to someone doing so towards her, ive also never seen her ever lower the tone of a debate.

No offense but all of the above arguments against her smack of a similarity when someone is annoyed at a woman for being shrill.....

I like her a lot but she can be tiresome. Her passive aggressive comments the other day in the HoC, implying Boris Johnson is a bad father, were completely unnecessary, not appropriate, and totally irrelevant to the business of the house. She’d also completely flip out if a Tory made those comments about a Labour MP, whether they were true or not.

Joe_ Public

Just doesnt look as if there's going to be labour-lib dem cooperation so they just have to get on with their campaigns. The lib dem supporting website Best for Britain is advocating voters choose the LD candidate in marginal constituencies where they had as low as 4% in 2017 so thats an indication of how theyre proceeding. Lab needs to fight its own corner.

Edit: link to story here:
Tactical voting website criticised for 'bogus' advice

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/oct/30/tactical-voting-could-deliver-remain-victory-in-election-study?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard

ancapailldorcha

quokula wrote: »

https://twitter.com/bathnesld/status/1189648562080112640

Is that a new low for the Lib Dems? They commissioned a poll in what is actually a Labour / Tory marginal seat, asking "If this was a Tory / Lib Dem marginal, who would you vote for" and are now using that as evidence that people should vote Lib Dem if they want to unseat the Tories.

It's like they're just trying to hand the election to the Conservatives.

I don't know. I quite like Jo Swinson but I've not paid a great deal of attention to her. My housemate's hackles have risen due to her incessant criticism of Jeremy Corbyn while largely sparing Johnson from any similar censure. I don't know why this is. Maybe she's trying to court liberal and moderate Tories but failing to condemn the man who is trying to wreak havoc on this country in such a brazenly authoritarian manner is certainly grounds for concern.

This poll and the similar hypocrisy over Scottish independence are not good looks for a liberal party.

quokula

https://twitter.com/bathnesld/status/1189648562080112640

Is that a new low for the Lib Dems? They commissioned a poll in what is actually a Labour / Tory marginal seat, asking "If this was a Tory / Lib Dem marginal, who would you vote for" and are now using that as evidence that people should vote Lib Dem if they want to unseat the Tories.

It's like they're just trying to hand the election to the Conservatives.

Edit: In fairness, it's not really a Tory / Labour marginal as the Tories have a fairly comfortable lead. But Labour were still by far and away the only party close to them in that seat, and the poll is blatantly dishonest.

Joe_ Public

If they pass the WAB the next deadline will be 30 June, the date they have to decide whether to extend transition period to 2022, which they will have no choice but to do. As there is currently no provision to extend TP after 2022, failing they negotiate a remarkably quick fta, the uk will then be working on wto terms. Just 3 years to get what many of them want.

Zubeneschamali

briany wrote: »

If you take Johnson's deal on the table, Brexit voters would mainly support it, as things stand, so if it were to be delivered upon, Farage would find it hard to rally much support against it.

Not so. Plenty of hardliners said May's deal was treachery, and they will feel the same way about Johnson's.

Then during 2020, we will have fun and games as the UK are bullied at trade talks - even talking to the EU will be viewed as treachery.

Then we'll have another No Deal cliff at the end of 2020, and the UK will have to extend for 2 years - the dogs in the street know they'd lose their shirts in any deal agreed in a year flat.

Then 2 more years of trade talks with the UK caving in to the EU.

Plenty of material for Farage to milk for the next 3+ years.

quokula

VinLieger wrote: »

Any examples of this? ive only ever seen her get emotional when it comes to representing her constituents interests or use aggressive language again when representing her constituents interests or in response to someone doing so towards her, ive also never seen her ever lower the tone of a debate.

No offense but all of the above arguments against her smack of someone being annoyed at a woman for being shrill.....

There are plenty of women in politics who are worthy of admiration and respect, she isn't above criticism just for being female.

My main observation of her narcissism came from an Andrew Neil politics show called This Week that I used to watch every Thursday night for years up until it was cancelled earlier this year.

They had politicians / ex-politicians on every week, Michael Portillo was the Conservative nearly 100% of the time, while Labour tended to rotate between 4 or 5 regulars and she was one of them. One of the segments was "what was your moment of the week" where each politician would name some event in global or national politics that they considered significant. Without fail, Jess Phillips would name something she personally did or was involved in, while nobody else was ever so self centred.

In general though she would constantly insult other politicians and make inappropriate comments. As has been discussed on the previous pages, she was happy to go along with the metaphor of stabbing her own party leader, and even the less aggressive tweet posted on the previous page used terms like "Bantz" and "Lads" to describe other MPs which I find pretty disrespectful and definitely lowering of the tone.

Zubeneschamali

CelticRambler wrote: »

My feeling (and 'tis only that) is that calling for a GE is another Cummings-Johnson strategic error

I don't think it is an error. Proroguing Parliament was an error - a silly stunt which backfired spectacularly. But Johnson can do nothing with the current Parliament, partly because of errors like that one - no-one can trust him, so there can be no deals done.

The only way out of the ditch he has dug for himself is to win an election.

[Edit] and he needs a majority. After antagonizing One Nation Tories, the DUP, and the No Deal contingent, he has no credible allies after the election. He could well be leader of the largest party after the election and still end up in opposition.

VinLieger

quokula wrote: »

She certainly knows how to publicise herself and get money. I tend to agree with her on policy substance most of the time, but her love of aggressive language, lowering the tone of debates and her attempts to always make everything about her are pretty tiresome.

Any examples of this? ive only ever seen her get emotional when it comes to representing her constituents interests or use aggressive language again when representing her constituents interests or in response to someone doing so towards her, ive also never seen her ever lower the tone of a debate.

No offense but all of the above arguments against her smack of a similarity when someone is annoyed at a woman for being shrill.....

ancapailldorcha

quokula wrote: »

Not insurmountable, but seriously, how is it not 0% to 100%? It's hard to fathom.

We've yet to see a campaign. I've no idea what Johnson will run on now that he can't credibly use either the union or the economy. He's just going to have to play to the far right and nationalists and those are people who will vote for him anyway. Moderate Tories might be tempted by the Lib Dems while the Labour vote will likely hold or suffer very slight losses to the Brexit Party, the Lib Dems and the Greens.

Dyr

quokula wrote: »

She certainly knows how to publicise herself and get money. I tend to agree with her on policy substance most of the time, but her love of aggressive language, lowering the tone of debates and her attempts to always make everything about her are pretty tiresome.

Narcissism appeals to a certain demograph

Quin_Dub

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

If Brexit doesn't happen, Farage gets to lead a Brexit Party forever. If Brexit does happen, it won't be the "clean break" utter disaster that he advocates, so he gets to lead a Clean Break Brexit party forever.

Even if a No Deal Brexit happens, the UK will begin talks with the EU and he'll lead a "No Surrender to the EU" party.

All while never actually managing to get elected to Parliament.

I'm fairly confident in saying that the Farage will once again , not get elected.

quokula

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

It's 36% to 34% according to the article so it's hardly an insurmountable chasm.

Not insurmountable, but seriously, how is it not 0% to 100%? It's hard to fathom.

volchitsa

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

It's 36% to 34% according to the article so it's hardly an insurmountable chasm.

Sure but why is it not 3.6% trust in Johnson? It's clear the Americans want to cherrypick the profitable parts of the NHS, they've made no secret of that. And it's not clear that BJ cares about anything as a matter of principle, and is never across his briefs even if he did care. Nor do promises he makes turn out to be reliable - and again I think people know that. Or they should.

briany

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

If Brexit doesn't happen, Farage gets to lead a Brexit Party forever. If Brexit does happen, it won't be the "clean break" utter disaster that he advocates, so he gets to lead a Clean Break Brexit party forever.

Even if a No Deal Brexit happens, the UK will begin talks with the EU and he'll lead a "No Surrender to the EU" party.

If you take Johnson's deal on the table, Brexit voters would mainly support it, as things stand, so if it were to be delivered upon, Farage would find it hard to rally much support against it. He'd have to stand side-by-side with the DUP, and the British public is largely turning against that crowd.

In the event of a no-deal Brexit and antagonistic trade negotiations, the Conservatives might as well position themselves as the No Surrender party, which again would mean little real political ground for the BXP.

quokula

prawnsambo wrote: »

Jess Phillips started a GoFundMe to raise £15k for her election campaign yesterday. It's hit the target already. That's one very popular MP. Getting donations from all over the country.

She certainly knows how to publicise herself and get money. I tend to agree with her on policy substance most of the time, but her love of aggressive language, lowering the tone of debates and her attempts to always make everything about her are pretty tiresome.

ancapailldorcha

volchitsa wrote: »

Incredible as it is to me, at least one UK paper is headlining a claim today that voters trust Johnson more over the NHS than they trust Corbyn.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7632443/Boris-Johnson-trusted-Jeremy-Corbyn-new-poll-voters-reveals.html

It's 36% to 34% according to the article so it's hardly an insurmountable chasm.

volchitsa

briany wrote: »

If the Brexit-voting public bought into 'project fear', then maybe they've been fully indoctrinated. Telling them that the Conservatives have dastardly plans for the NHS might be wasted breath.

Incredible as it is to me, at least one UK paper is headlining a claim today that voters trust Johnson more over the NHS than they trust Corbyn.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7632443/Boris-Johnson-trusted-Jeremy-Corbyn-new-poll-voters-reveals.html

Meanwhile the Mirror headlines almost the opposite - that Trump and Jphnson are already planning to sell off the NHS.

I think the UK is so divided at all levels that they have nothing left in common.

RobMc59

Christy42 wrote: »

I mean people were saying he would get Brexit done today. No matter what. He would prefer to be dead in a ditch. Did he lie to the people? Is he an incompetent failure? I mean this is his own measuring stick and basically his entire campaign was based around leaving today. Are they leaving today? I mean he knew he would have to face those who opposed him. Did he think they would roll over for him?

He has failed this time. Why would anyone believe he will get Brexit done this time around?

Johnson can't understand it,when he stamps his feet with mater and pater it works but it seems the peasants are revolting and not towing the line !...

Christy42

Twister2 wrote: »

He's fronting the party ,but he's the new face that has a deal ready to be delivered if he gets the mandate

He's now going to get brexit done

Corbyn can be shot down as indecisive, not expressing a preference on the referendum

DUP who gives a fukk

I mean people were saying he would get Brexit done today. No matter what. He would prefer to be dead in a ditch. Did he lie to the people? Is he an incompetent failure? I mean this is his own measuring stick and basically his entire campaign was based around leaving today. Are they leaving today? I mean he knew he would have to face those who opposed him. Did he think they would roll over for him?

He has failed this time. Why would anyone believe he will get Brexit done this time around?

briany

Strazdas wrote: »

I think the other stuff could trip him up, especially if the opposition start highlighting his plans for the NHS and workers rights etc.

'Get Brexit Done' as a slogan can only take him so far.

If the Brexit-voting public bought into 'project fear', then maybe they've been fully indoctrinated. Telling them that the Conservatives have dastardly plans for the NHS might be wasted breath.

Zubeneschamali

Twister2 wrote: »

If BJ gets his majority and can drive his deal through

What's his plan in relation to the predicted downturn this will cause

Blame the EU and Remoaning traitors.

Zubeneschamali

briany wrote: »

Nigel Farage is probably a worried man at the moment.

If Brexit doesn't happen, Farage gets to lead a Brexit Party forever. If Brexit does happen, it won't be the "clean break" utter disaster that he advocates, so he gets to lead a Clean Break Brexit party forever.

Even if a No Deal Brexit happens, the UK will begin talks with the EU and he'll lead a "No Surrender to the EU" party.

Joe_ Public

Twister2 wrote: »

What happened with the investigation into alleged favours to Ladyfriend

That had the potential to be serious

Gov department that awarded her the 100k releasing report today, not much talk around it as of yet. And seems the bold Jennifer is keen to exploit every opportunity for publicity she can get which will not be sweet music to the pm's ears.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/boris-johnsons-friend-jennifer-arcuri-flags-up-her-plans-for-a-general-election-2019-tour-jz066nmf0