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Home heating automation

[Deleted User]

Just starting to look into this now though probably wont be purchasing for a while unless a bargain pops up.

I know there are a number of options out there for this but many like the Nest for example appear to be mostly based around running automatically depending on temp etc or learning your usage.

What I want to know is which one is best to use like a traditional timer? I'd want to set a schedule for heating and water to come on and off and also boost it if I felt like it. Learning my usage or using the thermostat to turn on/off the heating is not something I would really use.

I do want to be able to boost the heat and water remotely so the place is warm before arriving home and have a nice interface for setting timers using an app as we change around our water and heating timing quite often and its a pain having to do this using the poor user interfaces and controls on a traditional heating timer.

I'm assuming they can all be used in this way but I wonder if any device in particular is more geared towards this type of usage?

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punisher5112

The_Scary_Man wrote: »

Cheers Punisher, is adding the second Nest stat something I could do myself once the first one is installed?

Yes you could as this is allowed.

If you can wire a plug and understand to check each connection and it doesn't pull back out.

Just make sure everything is off.

deezell

mcquaim wrote: »

Hi folks,

I added this thread last week:
https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2058025647

After conversations with various Tado support staff they say they Tado simply isn't compatible with this setup and apart from hard wiring thermostats no other alterations can make it compatible.

I'm not overly confident this is fully correct but I just can't get any information so I will return all the Tado stuff to Amazon tomorrow.

I just thought on the off chance someone within this thread hadn't seen the one I created and perhaps had any input/thoughts they'd like to add.

Cheers,
Mac

It can only work if two of the stats are hard wired back to their respective zone valves. The extension kit can only accommodate one wireless stat and switching of the HW valve. There is an alternative method to control temperature in a zone using a Tado TRV in that zone. The TRV becomes the measuring device for the zone, and the stat becomes the relay for that zone, while it's own temperature measuring device is unused . This arrangement would allow the stat to be located as a receiver next to its zone valve, all other radiators in the zone are open, and are heated when the TRV equipped radiator in the zone calls for heat. You would require two Tado TRVs for this arrangement to work. Other Smart thermostat systems use thermostats which are fully wireless, such as the Drayton wiser system. You would require a Drayton 3 zone system kit 3 and a single zone system kit 1 to give you 3 CH and one HW control.

xl500

Honeywell Evohome will Easily do what you want and is a great system

john_doe.

Big deals on Drayton in Amazon for next 2 hours

£132 for 3 Zone system is prob good value..

Nokia08

deezell wrote: »

You'd need to look a bit closer at your system. Do you have thermostats? Do the two switches control valves or circulation pumps? Is there a thermostat on the HW cylinder? Does the timer have to be set on for all heating events? And finally, when only heating HW, is there a general pump comes on into the boiler, or is the cylinder heated by convection (gravity flow) from the boiler. Once the general flow diagram mechanics of the system is known, it will be easier to determine which system is nest suited to switch and control the different parts.

Hey Back again Answering the questions here:
Do you have thermostats? - I do not.
Do the two switches control valves or circulation pumps? - They control Control valves.
Does the timer have to be set on for all heating events? -There is a option to have it on or off. So does not have to be timer (in fact we've never used it, its too complicated)
Is there a thermostat on the HW cylinder? - No there isn't.
And finally, when only heating HW, is there a general pump comes on into the boiler, or is the cylinder heated by convection (gravity flow) from the boiler. - It uses the pump that the boiler works from.

Have a specialist coming to give me a overview of what is possible as some complicated wiring may be necessary. But if you have any suggestions always welcome! Thanks again.

flogen

Hi folks,

Does anyone have any experience with the Netatmo TRVs?

I’ve a Netatmo thermostat in the house but would love to add control to individual rooms... though kitting out the entire house with their TRVs will be a pricey undertaking.

If I did would I be right to assume that it would allow the heat to come on in one (colder) room, even if the rest of the house - including the one with the thermostat - was at the set temperature (effectively turning on the boiler but turning off the rads in the rooms that don’t need heat)?

Has anyone tried adding one or two initially or are the advantages lost when doing that?

GarIT

flogen wrote: »

Has anyone tried adding one or two initially or are the advantages lost when doing that?

I've done it and there are huge disadvantages to doing anything other than the whole house. I did it with Tado but it's the same principle. When you cold rooms turns the heat on it will turn the heating on in every room without a smart thermostat to turn it off. You'll find your heat mght be on twice as often as all of your measured rooms might not be cold at the same time causing some unmeasured rooms to overheat. We paid under €700 for the whole house and it's totally worh it.

lucast2007us

GarIT wrote:

I've done it and there are huge disadvantages to doing anything other than the whole house. I did it with Tado but it's the same principle. When you cold rooms turns the heat on it will turn the heating on in every room without a smart thermostat to turn it off. You'll find your heat mght be on twice as often as all of your measured rooms might not be cold at the same time causing some unmeasured rooms to overheat. We paid under â‚¬700 for the whole house and it's totally worh it.

We're all your radiators ok for the setup or did you need new ones and new pipe work??

flogen

GarIT wrote: »

I've done it and there are huge disadvantages to doing anything other than the whole house. I did it with Tado but it's the same principle. When you cold rooms turns the heat on it will turn the heating on in every room without a smart thermostat to turn it off. You'll find your heat mght be on twice as often as all of your measured rooms might not be cold at the same time causing some unmeasured rooms to overheat. We paid under €700 for the whole house and it's totally worh it.

Thanks, I had a feeling that would be the case.

It’s a fair outlay to set up every rad but hopefully there’s eventually a return. At this time of year we’re regularly putting the heat on just to warm the kids’ room, for example.

Probably a stupid question but did you need to put a TRV on the rad in the room that already has the main thermostat?

deezell

flogen wrote: »

........Probably a stupid question but did you need to put a TRV on the rad in the room that already has the main thermostat?

No, a Good question. If the main stat is located in a hall or landing, and you only have a few smart TRVs for specific room control, you can still 'balance' your system using the traditional method of adjusting the lockshield valve on each rad. Alternatively ordinary inexpensive mechanical TRVs on the radiators wIll cap their area temperature when these rads are heated as a consequence of a smart TRVs call for heat in another zone. If all zones are controlled by smart TRVs, then it would be in order to have a smart TRV on the radiator in the main stat area, with the main stat set as the measuring device for this TRV. In this arrangement, the main stat calls the boiler for all TRV triggers, while keeping it's own associated TRV closed if the zone is at target temperature.

GarIT

lucast2007us wrote: »

We're all your radiators ok for the setup or did you need new ones and new pipe work??

They need to have the valves that have a pin that is pushed downwards rather than the twisting pin valve. We were getting the radiators replaced anyway.

flogen wrote: »

Thanks, I had a feeling that would be the case.

It’s a fair outlay to set up every rad but hopefully there’s eventually a return. At this time of year we’re regularly putting the heat on just to warm the kids’ room, for example.

Probably a stupid question but did you need to put a TRV on the rad in the room that already has the main thermostat?

As another poster said you can sort of control them with the regular TRV.

We saved a bit by wiring the main stat to the boiler, rather than buying any controller unit (extension kit for Tado). That meant the main stat was in the kitchen. Rather than have the cold kitchen extension heated all day we wanted to turn the heat off in the kitchen at 7pm so added the smart thermostat there too.

I couldn't be happier with the usefulness and I assume savings (we got it before moving in so I cant be sure). Upstairs is kept above 14C all night, all downstairs is kept above 10C, I'm up at 6am so heat just my room and the bathroom to 16C by 6, heat just the kitchen to 16C a few mins later, then all off again until 8 am when I heat just the other bedrooms and the kitchen; living rooms and bathroom get heated to 18C from around 9 -10am if anyone is still in the house, bedrooms kept bareable from 12pm to 9pm but not hotter than they need to be, increasing after 9pm, usually the heat from downstairs keeps them warmer than their minimum anyway. I haven't done a full winter in it yet though so may adjust later.

I'm a numbers nerd so enjoyed setting a minute by minute schedule for each room individually and saving the maximum amount possible.

Getting a smart stat on every radiator was actually cheaper than upgrading to a multizoned system.

deezell

Nokia08 wrote: »

Hey Back again Answering the questions here:
Do you have thermostats? - I do not.
Do the two switches control valves or circulation pumps? - They control Control valves.
Does the timer have to be set on for all heating events? -There is a option to have it on or off. So does not have to be timer (in fact we've never used it, its too complicated)
Is there a thermostat on the HW cylinder? - No there isn't.
And finally, when only heating HW, is there a general pump comes on into the boiler, or is the cylinder heated by convection (gravity flow) from the boiler. - It uses the pump that the boiler works from.

Have a specialist coming to give me a overview of what is possible as some complicated wiring may be necessary. But if you have any suggestions always welcome! Thanks again.

Without knowing the extent of the timers function, it's hard to give a full description of your system, but you could get some smart stat zones up and running just by adding two wireless zone stats. These can be positioned anywhere in their respective zones. Their receivers can be connected into the two switches to immediately give smart thermostatic control of the two CH zones. No additional plumbing and mimimal wiring is required. The existing mechanical timer can be wired to provide boiler timing for HW only. Alternatively, the receivers can include a HW relay which can be wired back to the boiler to give smart remote control of HW only schedules. Suitable stats for this set up are hive, Drayton Wiser and Nest. Netatmo also if remote HW control is not required.

john_doe.

Just wondering do people fit smart TRVs to tower rails and how.

Bought some of Drayton kit to test.

dball

is there any disadvantage to using tado smart tvr's designed for vertical use as horizontal.
I would imaging the only difference would be the temperature sensor?

john_doe.

The other thing that stumps me on this:

The drayton( and maybe others) don't tell you the percentage the mechanical actuator on the TRV is open or allow control it manually independent of temperature. I.e set it manually to a percentage.

If there is a stove in the mix that is heating the rads, I don't see a way you can control the trvs separately.

I.E let's say it's a particularly cold day and have a roaring fire down , like today, the stove is heating the rads on its own with heating off. But if the heating is off via the drayton, the TRVs I would imagine remain in a shut state as they are being told to stay at low temperature,not allowing heat to dissipate to them.

deezell

dball wrote: »

is there any disadvantage to using tado smart tvr's designed for vertical use as horizontal.
I would imaging the only difference would be the temperature sensor?

I think the only difference is that the display on the horizontal one is at right angles to the vertical one, so you can read it without twisting your head sideways.

deezell

john_doe. wrote: »

The other thing that stumps me on this:

The drayton( and maybe others) don't tell you the percentage the mechanical actuator on the TRV is open or allow control it manually independent of temperature. I.e set it manually to a percentage.

If there is a stove in the mix that is heating the rads, I don't see a way you can control the trvs separately.

I.E let's say it's a particularly cold day and have a roaring fire down , like today, the stove is heating the rads on its own with heating off. But if the heating is off via the drayton, the TRVs I would imagine remain in a shut state as they are being told to stay at low temperature,not allowing heat to dissipate to them.

That's because it's a thermostic valve. The position of the actuator varies depending on the difference between set and actual room temperature. On a mechanical TRV this would largely be fully open if set is above, fully closes if below, with obviously a range of temperatures either side of set where the TRV is transitioning from open to closed.
Smart TRVs are, er, smarter than this, with features like modulation, second order control characteristics, (where the stat uses rate of change of temperature to adjust flow, and learns it's own response to incremental changes in the actuator position). Knowledge of the acuator position tells you nothing. A barely open valve will heat a room very quickly with a high pressure pump and high temperature flow. Reduce pump pressure and flow temperature and the valve will need to be well open to maintain sufficient heat transfer. The closed loop of a TRV will open and close according to needs.
As you mention the use of a stove, it's worth noting that you must have some path for heated water open at all times in the event that TRVs are closed due to being at target room temperature. At least one device should be on a gravity feed from the stove, such as a bathroom rad or the HW cylinder, and possibly another radiator with a thermal valve to open if flow temperature exceeds a set level. These will be independent of power failure.

flogen

deezell wrote: »

No, a Good question. If the main stat is located in a hall or landing, and you only have a few smart TRVs for specific room control, you can still 'balance' your system using the traditional method of adjusting the lockshield valve on each rad. Alternatively ordinary inexpensive mechanical TRVs on the radiators wIll cap their area temperature when these rads are heated as a consequence of a smart TRVs call for heat in another zone. If all zones are controlled by smart TRVs, then it would be in order to have a smart TRV on the radiator in the main stat area, with the main stat set as the measuring device for this TRV. In this arrangement, the main stat calls the boiler for all TRV triggers, while keeping it's own associated TRV closed if the zone is at target temperature.

Thanks.

The main thermostat is in the living room, which tends to be one of the warmer rooms in the house, so that causes issues when trying to balance things out.

We have regular TRVs on most of the rads too, might see if I can get away with leaving one in the living room and adding smart ones elsewhere.

flogen

GarIT wrote: »

They need to have the valves that have a pin that is pushed downwards rather than the twisting pin valve. We were getting the radiators replaced anyway.

As another poster said you can sort of control them with the regular TRV.

We saved a bit by wiring the main stat to the boiler, rather than buying any controller unit (extension kit for Tado). That meant the main stat was in the kitchen. Rather than have the cold kitchen extension heated all day we wanted to turn the heat off in the kitchen at 7pm so added the smart thermostat there too.

I couldn't be happier with the usefulness and I assume savings (we got it before moving in so I cant be sure). Upstairs is kept above 14C all night, all downstairs is kept above 10C, I'm up at 6am so heat just my room and the bathroom to 16C by 6, heat just the kitchen to 16C a few mins later, then all off again until 8 am when I heat just the other bedrooms and the kitchen; living rooms and bathroom get heated to 18C from around 9 -10am if anyone is still in the house, bedrooms kept bareable from 12pm to 9pm but not hotter than they need to be, increasing after 9pm, usually the heat from downstairs keeps them warmer than their minimum anyway. I haven't done a full winter in it yet though so may adjust later.

I'm a numbers nerd so enjoyed setting a minute by minute schedule for each room individually and saving the maximum amount possible.

Getting a smart stat on every radiator was actually cheaper than upgrading to a multizoned system.

Cheers.

Yeah as expensive as it is I think we’d spend less getting TRVs than upgrading to a multi zone, and would allow for more granular control too. Hopefully they’d last a good while too - the big fear with any of this smart home stuff is that Aine thing happens to the company and you’re left with expensive lumps of plastic & metal.

deezell

john_doe. wrote: »

The other thing that stumps me on this:

.....I.E let's say it's a particularly cold day and have a roaring fire down , like today, the stove is heating the rads on its own with heating off. But if the heating is off via the drayton, the TRVs I would imagine remain in a shut state as they are being told to stay at low temperature,not allowing heat to dissipate to them.

In relation to this last issue, your problem lies in assuming you turn off the heating when firing up the stove. This is the wrong approach. In a combined system of boiler and solid fuel, you leave your CH schedule as normal, so without the stove your system will call the oil/gas boiler. Should you light the stove, the first thing that needs to happen is that the heated stove water will blend with the heated source from the boiler. This is properly achieved using a manifold neutraliser.
The second thing that needs to happen is that the stove has a thermostat switch that closes when the stove water heats past a threshold. Prior to this the stove should be heating the HW cylinder or a rad by gravity.
When the water heats beyond the demand of either of these, the thermostat closes, the stove pump turns on to send heated water to the manifold/blender, and assuming your CH schedule is operating, the various pumps or valves will open to send this water to the zones. In addition to this, using a relay on the wiring centre/ lex box, the call for heat from the lex to the boiler is interrupted using the same live output from the stove thermostat to open the relay. This means that the various zone pumps and smart TRVs are on and open and calling for heat, but that call will not reach the boiler until the stove dies down and no longer heats the water past the stove thermostat threshold. When this happens, the stove pump turns off, the boiler interrupt relay closes and the call for heat from the various zone stats is reconnected to the boiler which 'takes over' from the stove, until you lash some more logs in.
Using this logical design ensures seamless transition from boiler to stove and back. The only additional constraint would be the requirement to have some radiators open in at least one of the pumped zones, and to have this zone pump also triggered directly by the stove stat via the lex box, so that there is always a pumped path for the stove.
If the house got so warm that all TRVs, smart or manual, were closed, the stove would only have its gravity feed to lose heat. There should be some spare relays in the lex wiring centre to allow one of the zone pumps to be called by the stove thermostats, regardless of the zone temperature and whither the zone is 'off', and this zone should have some always open rads.

john_doe.

deezell wrote: »

In relation to this last issue, your problem lies in assuming you turn off the heating when firing up the stove. This is the wrong approach. In a combined system of boiler and solid fuel, you leave your CH schedule as normal, so without the stove your system will call the oil/gas boiler. Should you light the stove, the first thing that needs to happen is that the heated stove water will blend with the heated source from the boiler. This is properly achieved using a manifold neutraliser.
The second thing that needs to happen is that the stove has a thermostat switch that closes when the stove water heats past a threshold. Prior to this the stove should be heating the HW cylinder or a rad by gravity.
When the water heats beyond the demand of either of these, the thermostat closes, the stove pump turns on to send heated water to the manifold/blender, and assuming your CH schedule is operating, the various pumps or valves will open to send this water to the zones. In addition to this, using a relay on the wiring centre/ lex box, the call for heat from the lex to the boiler is interrupted using the same live output from the stove thermostat to open the relay. This means that the various zone pumps and smart TRVs are on and open and calling for heat, but that call will not reach the boiler until the stove dies down and no longer heats the water past the stove thermostat threshold. When this happens, the stove pump turns off, the boiler interrupt relay closes and the call for heat from the various zone stats is reconnected to the boiler which 'takes over' from the stove, until you lash some more logs in.
Using this logical design ensures seamless transition from boiler to stove and back. The only additional constraint would be the requirement to have some radiators open in at least one of the pumped zones, and to have this zone pump also triggered directly by the stove stat via the lex box, so that there is always a pumped path for the stove.
If the house got so warm that all TRVs, smart or manual, were closed, the stove would only have its gravity feed to lose heat. There should be some spare relays in the lex wiring centre to allow one of the zone pumps to be called by the stove thermostats, regardless of the zone temperature and whither the zone is 'off', and this zone should have some always open rads.

Thanks , i was trying to figure out the attached "SystemLink" and in particular the AUX function(shown in screenshots) on the systemLex, looks like the AUX is to break the boiler contact when the stove is at temperature and to keep the zone pumps activated as you mentioned.

therecklessone

Sorry if this has been asked before and answered, but I'm boggled eyed trying to get my head around it.

We've a dual zone heating system with two Nest Thermostats (upstairs landing, and hallway), but we've a problem with attic insulation meaning a couple of bedrooms lose heat pretty rapidly at night. That should resolve itself in a week or so when we get new insulation fitted in the attic.

I'm also hunting draughts at the moment and am finding balancing the heat downstairs difficult.

I'd like to be able to shutoff rads based on room temps while still running the downstairs heating zone. Is it possible to use a smart TRV (say a Tado) to shutoff a radiator once the temp gets to a certain point while still using the Nest?

deezell

therecklessone wrote: »

Sorry if this has been asked before and answered, but I'm boggled eyed trying to get my head around it.

We've a dual zone heating system with two Nest Thermostats (upstairs landing, and hallway), but we've a problem with attic insulation meaning a couple of bedrooms lose heat pretty rapidly at night. That should resolve itself in a week or so when we get new insulation fitted in the attic.

I'm also hunting draughts at the moment and am finding balancing the heat downstairs difficult.

I'd like to be able to shutoff rads based on room temps while still running the downstairs heating zone. Is it possible to use a smart TRV (say a Tado) to shutoff a radiator once the temp gets to a certain point while still using the Nest?

You can just use mechanical TRVs, cheap to buy, but you might need TRV valve bodies on your rads if you currently only have screw turn valves. You will need these type of valve bodies for smart TRVs like tado also, the valves only cost euros, but replacing the screw down ones on the rads is a skilled diy or plumbers task.

deezell

Ordinary valve body with screw turn cap

rv15a-600x600%20copy-600x600.jpg

Push pin TRV valve body

deezell

Also, you can install Tado TRVs as standalone items. They will regulate the room temperature according to a smart schedule but can't call the boiler directly, they will depend on the Nests to be 'on' at the time. Having said that, you can create smart routines, possibly using alexa or IFTTT to respond to a TRV open event and instruct the Nest to fire for a period.

paulgrogan.eu

Hey everyone,

Wow there's so much info here which is great, but I'm not sure I've fully found the answers I'm looking for, as I think a lot of people are using Gas systems.

At the moment, my system is a Firebird Oil boiler, hotwater tank, and currently 2 zones (upstairs/downstairs) controlled by basic heat-merchants valve controllers (that are crap!). So essentially I've got very little control over my system as the zone controllers have to be manually turned on and off as the electronic motor keeps breaking on them. I've currently got no thermostats at all in the house, and rely on the TRV's for any level of control

I'm particularly interested in a Tado system, mainly because of the TRV control and the Apple Homekit compatibility as that's the route I'd like to go for my Smart home.

My questions are:

1. How does Tado control the hot water? I understand you need extension kit, but how does this control the hot water? Perhaps I need to install a valve on the pipe to the tank?

2. I've got 15 radiators, so a smart TRV for each is going to be expensive, but I think this is the best way to get the right temp in the most used rooms, rather than relying on a centrally located Thermostat to try and balance the heat. If I was to install Smart TRV's on half of my rads (the most used rooms) and then just go with the normal ones in the other rooms, how well would that work, and has anyone done this before?

I've spoken to Tado and understand that my boiler is compatible at least, but the above are the areas I'm struggling to get my head around.

Thanks so much to all in advance for your guidance.

P.

maxsmum

Anyone using Hive with Alexa? The best I can get to switch on a boost is 'Alexa set Heating to 21 degrees for one hour' (we named the thermostat Heating) which is a bit clunky to whisper at 3am...

deezell

paulgrogan.eu wrote: »

......

1. How does Tado control the hot water? I understand you need extension kit, but how does this control the hot water? Perhaps I need to install a valve on the pipe to the tank?

2. I've got 15 radiators, so a smart TRV for each is going to be expensive, but I think this is the best way to get the right temp in the most used rooms, rather than relying on a centrally located Thermostat to try and balance the heat. If I was to install Smart TRV's on half of my rads (the most used rooms) and then just go with the normal ones in the other rooms, how well would that work....

P.

First thing, if your motorised valves are burning out motors, perhaps the valve is sticking and straining the motors. Replace the entire valve. They're cheap enough.

The Tado ext. kit in two zone mode, HW and CH, sends a live for either event. As you have no HW motorised valve , I assume HW is gravity fed, or by the pump, and HW is always heated when the boiler is on, regardless of which zone valves are open. In this case it's simple. The HW switched live (SL) from the ext. kit is connected to the boiler, the CH SL is connected to its zone valve, whose built in relay sends SL to the boiler. You'll need a second tado stat for the upstairs zone. This will also need to control its zone valve, which in turn calls the boiler. All three SLs are combined, the SL for HW an the two SLs from the valves, but NOT the CH SLs from the stat or the ext kit, otherwise all valves would open for any event.

Smart TRVs on some rads can be effectively used to call a zone from a room that cools quicker than the usually centrally located main stat. Ordinary TRVs can be used to cap heat in other rooms in that zone. Smart TRVs can be used to take out rooms in the zone not needed when the main stat for that zone triggers. One or two smart stats is a 5-6 room zone ( upstairs 4 bed house say), can be used to great effect to heat certain rooms above main landing stat setting, or to take out a little used room during a heating time Interval. Ordinary TRVs on other rooms will cap them from overheating, but don't put an ordinary TRV in the area of the main stat unless it's set to above the stat set temperature, so the rad can heat to the temperature set on the stat and turn off the boiler. Be aware that smart TRV motor noise in bedrooms can be disturbing to light sleepers.

Final note. As you have no stats, the ext. kit will give you one wireless stat, but you will have to wire in the other back to its zone valve. If this is a pita, consider drayton wiser, or hive where all stats are wireless, you just locate the receivers next to the motorised valves. Both of these have TRVs in their portfolio, I'll leave it to you to check homekit compatibility.

therecklessone

deezell wrote: »

Also, you can install Tado TRVs as standalone items. They will regulate the room temperature according to a smart schedule but can't call the boiler directly, they will depend on the Nests to be 'on' at the time. Having said that, you can create smart routines, possibly using alexa or IFTTT to respond to a TRV open event and instruct the Nest to fire for a period.

Thanks for that. I’d though that’s about as good as I can hope for anyway with the Nest stats already in place, and it would suffice for us, but it’s good to hear.

The valve I have on the kitchen rad is attached, is that compatible?

deezell

therecklessone wrote: »

Thanks for that. I’d though that’s about as good as I can hope for anyway with the Nest stats already in place, and it would suffice for us, but it’s good to hear.

The valve I have on the kitchen rad is attached, is that compatible?

No, that's a standard screw valve, like an ordinary tap. TRV valve bodies have a little pin which presses down to close, spring loaded to open.