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Western Rail Corridor / Rail Trail Discussion

[Deleted User]

Carrying on with the discussion as the other thread is full

https://touch.boards.ie/thread/2055766866/1

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L1011

Lord Glentoran wrote: »

Your emotive language says a lot about how brittle the anti rail position is. For everyone else, Google shadow tolls on the M3.

You are still banging a conspiracy drum that does not exist. Also, what emotive language? What is anti-rail in that post? You are imagining things

The M3 doesn't receive any subventions anymore. The last amounts were so small as to be irrelevant.

The state has put huge volumes of subsidised buses to Navan on that would have undermined any conspiracy anyway

Find a better argument - one based on facts not delusions

Isambard

Greaney wrote: »

Just because you say it, doesn't make it true!!

https://connachttribune.ie/western-rail-corridor-user-numbers-exceed-expectations/

as well you know, i was referring to the original projections used to justify the rebuilding . You can talk about year on year growth if you like, and I agree traffic is growing, but it hasn't lived up to the projections even with the fare slashed

Hotblack Desiato

donvito99 wrote: »

So less than a full complement of coach passengers, on average

It's a joke.
Not only would a coach service be far cheaper to run, the environmental impact would be less.

end of the road

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

It's a joke.
Not only would a coach service be far cheaper to run, the environmental impact would be less.

and would attract none of the passengers using the rail services, or who would use the rail services in the future, for which rail is the only option for them on that corridor. a corridor which is growing, along with the rail services.

those who do wish to use bus services already have them, a plenty.
bus's environmental impact would actually be worse as it would be adding to pollution, compared to rail which ultimately takes away from it by being on it's own and being able to carry a hell of a lot more.

Hotblack Desiato

There's no planet where it makes environmental sense to run a diesel train for an average of 39 passengers.

end of the road

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

There's no planet where it makes environmental sense to run a diesel train for an average of 39 passengers.

it does make sense when
1. 39 is only the average and is not the exact. there are plenty of full trains on the wrc.
2. the train keeps people from going back to their cars and has potential to have it's numbers grown.

westtip

end of the road wrote: »

it does make sense when
1. 39 is only the average and is not the exact. there are plenty of full trains on the wrc.
2. the train keeps people from going back to their cars and has potential to have it's numbers grown.

Of those 39 how many are fare paying passengers?
How many are using the travel pass?
If the line between the two largest urban areas in the West/midwest can only muster up 39 passengers per train what are the expected numbers of a train passing through a few small towns?
Oh my head is getting tired.

Grandeeod

westtip wrote: »

Of those 39 how many are fare paying passengers?
How many are using the travel pass?
If the line between the two largest urban areas in the West/midwest can only muster up 39 passengers per train what are the expected numbers of a train passing through a few small towns?
Oh my head is getting tired.

You are replying to a person that accepts 39 passengers are an average, while claiming that the WRC is a mass transit system or could be. At least your head is only tired.:D

L1011

Lord Glentoran wrote: »

Google shadow tolls on the M3.

I actually tried this.

One five year out of date result comes up, along with 9 completely unconnected articles.

You are so badly informed about what you have latched on to as a conspiracy you don't even know how to direct people to the info on it. They're called "capacity payments", if that helps you find stuff.

Muckyboots

Del.Monte wrote: »

It's a potentially useful link line that was run into the ground by CIE and should have never closed in the first place. I have no vested interest in seeing it reopened as I have it ticked off - in both directions - many times but believe that it should be reopened and properly operated. CIE don't feature in any real future for the line in my opinion.

Are you proposing a fully privatised WRC? Asking for a shinner friend.

ohographite

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

There's no planet where it makes environmental sense to run a diesel train for an average of 39 passengers.

I'll admit you have a point here.
Even though the train would be running anyway from Limerick to Ennis and from Athenry to Galway,(which lowers the environmental impact of journeys made from either of these sections to the new section and beyond) I would say the Ennis-Athenry section just about fails to lower greenhouse gas emissions.
However, I am in support of electrifying this railway, which, while expensive, would make environmental sense as an alternative to keeping diesel trains running on it.

tom1ie

ohographite wrote: »

I'll admit you have a point here.
Even though the train would be running anyway from Limerick to Ennis and from Athenry to Galway,(which lowers the environmental impact of journeys made from either of these sections to the new section and beyond) I would say the Ennis-Athenry section just about fails to lower greenhouse gas emissions.
However, I am in support of electrifying this railway, which, while expensive, would make environmental sense as an alternative to keeping diesel trains running on it.

Close it and replace it with an efficient frequent bus service.
The population density's are not there to support it.
As for electrifying it, save the money and divert the money to a metro system in Dublin.

donvito99

Wouldn't a Galway commuter service using the stock presently wasted running North of Ennis have a far greater environmental impact?

end of the road

tom1ie wrote: »

Close it and replace it with an efficient frequent bus service.

no point as the only thing it would achieve is increase car traffic.
a frequent not so efficient service in replacement won't attract the patronage as there is already an existing bus service which meets the needs of those who actually do want and use buses. however it would not meet the needs of those using the rail service, no matter how frequent or efficient.

[/QUOTE]The population density's are not there to support it.

funnily enough the population dencities are there to support the galway to limerick service, which is now well used. there are certainly a couple of questions about the couple of small stations but they are built now so it's time to move on.

[/QUOTE]As for electrifying it, save the money and divert the money to a metro system in Dublin.[/QUOTE]

apparently not possible as the money if put up for electrification would have to either go to electrification or go back into the general pot.
apparently it's not as simple as diverting money from one project to another due to the workings of government budgeting.
there is already money available for, and plans to build the metrolink in dublin, but whether it will actually get done, only time will tell.

ohographite

tom1ie wrote: »

Close it and replace it with an efficient frequent bus service.
The population density's are not there to support it.
As for electrifying it, save the money and divert the money to a metro system in Dublin.

Both electrifying it and giving Dublin a Metro System can be done, and I'm certain that it makes sense to do both.

ohographite

donvito99 wrote: »

Wouldn't a Galway commuter service using the stock presently wasted running North of Ennis have a far greater environmental impact?

I am unclear with what this means. The train is busier between Athenry and Galway than it is between Athenry and Ennis.
Oranmore station has a decent amount of journeys made from it to Galway. So does Athenry, so I'd say the train would be running from Galway to Athenry regardless of whether it continued to Limerick or not.

Ubbquittious

This thread still filled with people hatin' the WRC? just like 10 years ago.

Last Stop

Ubbquittious wrote: »

This thread still filled with people hatin' the WRC? just like 10 years ago.

You could hardly class it as a roaring success in those 10 years could you?

ohographite

Last Stop wrote: »

You could hardly class it as a roaring success in those 10 years could you?

I'm not denying it was off to a bad start, but it's been doing better in more recent years.
Currently it is doing all right patronage-wise compared to Ennis-Limerick, or Manulla-Ballina, neither of which have really been threatened with closure.

Last Stop

ohographite wrote: »

I'm not denying it was off to a bad start, but it's been doing better in more recent years.
Currently it is doing all right patronage-wise compared to Ennis-Limerick, or Manulla-Ballina, neither of which have really been threatened with closure.

Where has the WRC been threatened with closure? If people are giving out its because of the massive capital cost of reopening the line which has extremely low passenger numbers. When you consider the passengers numbers that the reopening of the Navan line for example would have achieved, people are right to be complaining

Hotblack Desiato

ohographite wrote: »

However, I am in support of electrifying this railway, which, while expensive, would make environmental sense as an alternative to keeping diesel trains running on it.

Ah here.
Electrification costs a fortune, it's very much worth it on busy lines, but crazy on ones which are barely used.

Ubbquittious wrote: »

This thread still filled with people hatin' the WRC? just like 10 years ago.

Nope just hate wasting taxpayers' money on vanity projects while much greater areas of need go neglected.

JCX BXC

Last Stop wrote: »

When you consider the passengers numbers that the reopening of the Navan line for example would have achieved, people are right to be complaining

Underinvestment in another line does not equal criticism of another line, it equals criticism of the transport policy.

ohographite

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Ah here.
Electrification costs a fortune, it's very much worth it on busy lines, but crazy on ones which are barely used.
.

What exactly makes it crazy?
I am aware electrification costs a fortune, but I still think it's worth it for all of Ireland's rail network, because it would reduce greenhouse gas emissions.

ohographite

Last Stop wrote: »

Where has the WRC been threatened with closure? If people are giving out its because of the massive capital cost of reopening the line which has extremely low passenger numbers. When you consider the passengers numbers that the reopening of the Navan line for example would have achieved, people are right to be complaining

It was threatened with closure back in 2017.
This article mentioned the possibility of its closure:

https://www.thejournal.ie/irish-rail-routes-3570004-Aug2017/

I'd definitely say reopening the railway from Dublin to Navan makes sense too.

Last Stop

ohographite wrote: »

What exactly makes it crazy?
I am aware electrification costs a fortune, but I still think it's worth it for all of Ireland's rail network, because it would reduce greenhouse gas emissions.

The biggest cost is not the actual electrification but the rolling stock. How could you justify buying a fleet of brand new rolling stock for a single track railway for 39 people? You’d be better off buying them a Tesla each if you want to reduce greenhouse gases

ohographite

Last Stop wrote: »

The biggest cost is not the actual electrification but the rolling stock. How could you justify buying a fleet of brand new rolling stock for a single track railway for 39 people? You’d be better off buying them a Tesla each if you want to reduce greenhouse gases

Eventually the rolling stock will have to be replaced anyway, whether it's with electric trains or not.
What I am suggesting is buying a large fleet of electric trains for the entire rail network of Ireland, not just the reopened Ennis-Athenry section.
The batteries of electric cars have a negative environmental impact because of the mining of toxic materials necessary to make them, and that's why public transport is still necessary to make our travelling habits more sustainable, even when all private cars are electric.

cdaly_

Last Stop wrote: »

You’d be better off buying them a Tesla each if you want to reduce greenhouse gases

ohographite wrote: »

The batteries of electric cars have a negative environmental impact because of the mining of toxic materials necessary to make them, and that's why public transport is still necessary to make our travelling habits more sustainable, even when all private cars are electric.

Don't forget also that electric private cars are still emitting greenhouse gases, just not on the roadside. Instead the emissions are back at the generating station.

Lord Glentoran

L1011 wrote: »

I actually tried this.

One five year out of date result comes up, along with 9 completely unconnected articles.

You are so badly informed about what you have latched on to as a conspiracy you don't even know how to direct people to the info on it. They're called "capacity payments", if that helps you find stuff.

Playing the man is par for the course.

Lord Glentoran

cdaly_ wrote: »

Don't forget also that electric private cars are still emitting greenhouse gases, just not on the roadside. Instead the emissions are back at the generating station.

There was a thread some years back where those who had the temerity to suggest that extending the railway from Derry to Letterkenny was a Good Thing, were lectured that we would all be whizzing around in driverless electric cars soon and rail expansion was consequently dead.

eastwest

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Ah here.
Electrification costs a fortune, it's very much worth it on busy lines, but crazy on ones which are barely used.

You touch on an issue here that is important.
The WRC extension can effectively only be built if it attracts European funding, and this albeit unlikely scenario can only come to pass if the project is electrified.
However the only way that a political decision to open a line north of Athenry can ever be made is if it can use some old rolling stock from replacements on busier lines, so in effect it can only happen in the context of full electrification nationally.
So the railway campaigners seeking to have trains on this closed line should really start with a campaign to electrify the entire network.