Silent Running wrote: » Now all they have to do is get them out to vote. That's the hard bit.
Professor Moriarty wrote: » A major factor in the 2017 election was that May literally did not turn up for debates and for campaigning. This left Corbyn with the field to himself. Johnson is a deeply flawed person and politician but he has charisma. He will turn up everywhere. If I were the Tories, I would make this a presidential style dogfight between Johnson and Corbyn. The possible Achilles heel in that strategy is that, without doubt, there is plenty of muck yet to be made public about Johnson. If Labour can find it and make it stick then it could be a game changer.
quokula wrote: » Oh I totally understand that. But most of the criticism seems to be coming from remainers, even though Labour's policy is their absolute best case possible.
ancapailldorcha wrote: » Well... On one hand, the winter might hinder the older folk who are more reliable in terms of both voting and voting Conservative. The Conservatives also get most of their support from more rural constituencies. Then again, students and such might just stay in. I don't think that the European elections are a suitable barometer for predicting turnout but at the same time it will be critical that Corbyn actually rides the Remain wave instead of having it crush him. Nobody who wouldn't normally vote will break that habit for a Labour renegotiation. Charisma will only get you so far. Johnson might have charisma but he has a lot of skeletons which are now very visible. He wanted to have his deal done so he could be the man who delivered Brexit. As with everything else in his tenure, he failed and he knows that this will weaken him. Remember that clip from Morley where he was told to go to Brussels and do his job? I think this attitude will reflect those of large swathes of this country. Scotland will rinse itself of Ruth Davidson's hard won 2017 gains, Wales might return a few Conservatives, the DUP will vote against the deal if they retain all of their seats and the Liberal Democrats might nibble away at a few of their southern seats as they don't have to endure the Corbyn stigma. Then again, they might eat a few of Labour's leads such that the Tory candidate wins there. Hard to say. He needs to tap into new votes and it's impossible to see how. Davidson was able to ruthlessly portray herself as a staunch Unionist but Johnson will not have that luxury.
Professor Moriarty wrote: » Look at it this way. Here are some slogans: Tories: Back Boris' Deal and Get Brexit Done! Lib Dems: Revoke! The Brexit Party: A Clean Break! Labour: Well, some of us want to have a second referendum but some more want a soft brexit negotiated. Some more want to Remain. But we're very clear, that we will renegotiate the deal and then maybe put it to a second referendum. But we could have a referendum first. Something, something, renegotiate, something referendum.
Professor Moriarty wrote: » I really do think it comes down to the Brexit Party. If they agree to give the Tories an easy route and they focus on Labour Leave seats then it's a Tory majority for sure. Of course, if the Lib Dems and Labour made a similar pact then that would turn things around. However, I suspect that Farage will pretend not to support the Tories but will do it anyway and will focus on Lab leave seats while Labour and the Lib Dems will split the Remain vote in every English constituency
quokula wrote: » Result: Basically the same situation as currently, Tories continue to pursue a hard brexit while the opposition majority fail to work together as the Lib Dems have repeatedly ruled out doing so, instead voting on endless delays until the EU stops granting them.
quokula wrote: » Anyone can make up inaccurate summaries like that. Tories: Get Brexit Done, just like we've failed to for the last 3 years Lib Dems: We'll do anything to stop Brexit, apart from working with other parties Brexit Party: Vote for us if you hate foreigners Labour: Let the people decide
Joe_ Public wrote: » Lot of truth in that. Hardly says a lot for electorate that a few trite slogans are all it can digest but that seems to be how it is. I interpreted the ld move to revoke as a tactic to avoid difficult questions about holding a second vote and it works. That revoke position looks a bit off to me, in that it has little basis in reality,but it resonates with many voters so that's what counts.
ancapailldorcha wrote: » They won't, though. Farage asked for the Moon when this was tried before. Johnson has leave credentials that May didn't. He was the most prominent Conservative Brexiter and can position himself as the only man who can deliver Brexit. Most of the rightwing press, if not all will swing in behind him.
Professor Moriarty wrote: » Get Brexit Done is an actual recent Tory Slogan. Revoke is an actual recent Lib Dem slogan. A Clean Break is an actual recent Brexit Party slogan. Can't remember any actual recent Labour slogan.
schmittel wrote: » I suppose the point of my original post on the subject was that I think Lib Dems message should be "forget tactical voting, if all Remainers get behind us we will stop Brexit"
quokula wrote: » Let the People Decide is an actual Labour slogan. For the Many not the Few is their main one though, as it covers more than Brexit.
quokula wrote: » The revoke position is utterly dishonest because there is no chance in hell that it would ever happen without raising massive questions about democracy that would have a lot of validity. It would be like mana from heaven for the far right at the next election and article 50 could be immediately invoked again by the next Tory government on the basis that the referendum mandate hasn't been fulfilled, nor has it been overturned by a people's vote. Of course it allows them to attack Labour's more credible position and win votes from people who don't engage their brains or look beyond simple slogans.
Professor Moriarty wrote: » Hopefully. The Brexit Party taking a few percent off the Tories in every constituency is the best hope for preventing a Tory majority.
Professor Moriarty wrote: » Let the People Decide....how? An immediate second referendum? What will be on that referendum? Will Labour renegotiate Johnson's deal? If so, under what criteria? If not, why not?
quokula wrote: » The revoke position is utterly dishonest because there is no chance in hell that it would ever happen without raising massive questions about democracy that would have a lot of validity.
Enzokk wrote: » Johnson was said to be a great orator who would run rings around Corbyn at PMQs and would easily be able to bat back criticisms against him, and yet he has been shown to sometimes be worse than May and his ramblings are just that, ramblings. Look at the way people aren't afraid to stand up to him in the street and confront him, this doesn't happen to other leaders (other than the facist Farage) but Johnson seems to attract it. Also, Corbyn also avoided the debates and if I remember correctly it was only once Rudd was confirmed to stand in for May that they took the opportunity to embarrass her further.
Professor Moriarty wrote: » Labour: Well, some of us want to have a second referendum but some more want a soft brexit negotiated. Some more want to Remain. But we're very clear, that we will renegotiate the deal and then maybe put it to a second referendum. But we could have a referendum first. Something, something, renegotiate, something referendum.
Professor Moriarty wrote: » Indeed, any person with half a brain would see beyond Johnson's facade but, sadly, there seems to be many people with only half a brain who vote.
Zubeneschamali wrote: » I don't think Labour will talk much about Brexit at all, they will talk about the NHS, jobs, education, fair taxes, the railways and so on, and compare it to Tory policies of austerity, defending the rich, attacking Parliament, lying to the Queen etc.
ancapailldorcha wrote: » But they can also see that we are now on extension number three after we were told only weeks ago that we were leaving "do or die". Johnson has a reputation for many things but competence is not one of them.
Enzokk wrote: » The deal vs Remain. Their policy is very simple, but you can make it complicated. Labour believes there is a better deal for the UK out there and would like to try and find out if there is. If they find one and it is beneficial they will back that new deal vs Remain. If however the best deal is the Johnson deal then it will go against Remain. Either way the people will decide and have a choice between what has been negotiated and Remain. This is not complicated to understand, unless you are trying not to understand it.
Professor Moriarty wrote: » Other parties have definitive slogans and positions. Labour don't.
