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Ireland Team Talk XI: Team of nervoUS MOD warning Post 1

[Deleted User]

Continued from here
https://touch.boards.ie/thread/2057953711/251
All Ireland Senior XV related talk here.

MOD: Bear in mind this thread is starting during the World Cup window and the zero tolerance policy is in force. Trolling will be rewarded with an instant ban. For the duration of the tournament any mention of Zebo in this thread will not be permitted, it is just dragging current Ireland squad talk off topic.

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sydthebeat

shootermacg wrote: »

Sorry Syd, quoted the wrong post

No problem shooter.... I was blaming the beer fear for not getting it

Dubinusa

I am just adding some size. A little more power with ball in hand. Worth a look, imo hence the inclusion of Nordi.

Neil3030

Schmidt had 42 wins from 59 (74.5%) matches as Irish HC at the end of the autumnal tests in 2018.

Since announcing his departure he then went 9 wins from 14, down to 64.2%.

Not exact falling off a cliff, but I do recall a gut feeling at the time of his announcement that the mentality in the team may shift, knowing the coach would soon be gone.

P.Walnuts

Faugheen wrote: »

Jack O’Donoghue ahead of VDF?

What have people got against VDF on this forum?

Also, Ruddock is 28. Hardly past it.

Squidgy Black wrote: »

People keep making up a narrative about him being light and not powerful despite the many examples of him absolutely drilling people in the tackle and driving players back quite often.

If you think VDF is light, you certainly can't be calling for Penny to be in the team considering he's shorter and lighter again.

I don't think anyone has an agenda against VDF, personally I think he's a good player and brings a lot to the table but at international player he's a little limited.

If we aspire to be a top international team we need more than tackling from a 7, just look at England's two flankers and what they bring. I think the only player we have that comes close to them is a fit Leavy. Trying not to be knee jerk in my reactions but Underhill and Curry have been just phenomenal in the past 12 months.

FWIW I think the bigger problem in the back row is POM, going forward i think some combination of Conan,Stander (at 6) Leavy an VDF should be our best combination.

Shefwedfan

P.Walnuts wrote: »

I don't think anyone has an agenda against VDF, personally I think he's a good player and brings a lot to the table but at international player he's a little limited.

If we aspire to be a top international team we need more than tackling from a 7, just look at England's two flankers and what they bring. I think the only player we have that comes close to them is a fit Leavy. Trying not to be knee jerk in my reactions but Underhill and Curry have been just phenomenal in the past 12 months.

FWIW I think the bigger problem in the back row is POM, going forward i think some combination of Conan,Stander (at 6) Leavy an VDF should be our best combination.

We can’t base our whole game on what XYZ are doing....we need to play to our strengths

I don’t see Aus etc trying to copy what England etc are doing, just play the best team they have and see how it goes

As fans we spend too much time looking at this player and that player. We have some exceptional players in Ireland....we just need to freshen up the game plan and get them rocking again

P.Walnuts

Shefwedfan wrote: »

We can’t base our whole game on what XYZ are doing....we need to play to our strengths

I don’t see Aus etc trying to copy what England etc are doing, just play the best team they have and see how it goes

As fans we spend too much time looking at this player and that player. We have some exceptional players in Ireland....we just need to freshen up the game plan and get them rocking again

And how did that go for them?

There's nothing wrong with looking at what other countries do well and trying to duplicate it. Doesn't mean we can't add our own variations

Shefwedfan

P.Walnuts wrote: »

And how did that go for them?

There's nothing wrong with looking at what other countries do well and trying to duplicate it. Doesn't mean we can't add our own variations

It’s sad if all we are hoping to be is a poor mans England

Joe did create a specific style twice which we played to. People might not have liked it but it worked with the personnel we had....we just didn’t move on from it after 2018

So hopefully the new team have their own style they would like the team to play and it will be successful

P.Walnuts

Shefwedfan wrote: »

It’s sad if all we are hoping to be is a poor mans England

I'd be of the opinion it's sadder to get embarrassed on a global stage every four years

Shefwedfan

P.Walnuts wrote: »

I'd be of the opinion it's sadder to get embarrassed on a global stage every four years

We have 4 6 nations to worry about before we need to think about that

Tea Shock

Neil3030 wrote: »

Schmidt had 42 wins from 59 (74.5%) matches as Irish HC at the end of the autumnal tests in 2018.

Since announcing his departure he then went 9 wins from 14, down to 64.2%.

Not exact falling off a cliff, but I do recall a gut feeling at the time of his announcement that the mentality in the team may shift, knowing the coach would soon be gone.

I just remember thinking, while I was delighted to beat the all-blacks 11 months ago. it was a terrible time to do so given what they have a habit of doing to teams the next time they play them after being beaten by them!

Also, Steven Hansen and Warren Gatland announced they were stepping away from NZ and Wales at around the same time as Schmidt's announcement. Wales then went and won the grand slam and reached a 3rd RWC semi final. New Zealand, while they had a disappointing year with 2 terrible performances against Australia and England, didn't fall anywhere near as far as Ireland and were already showing signs of slipping in last November's series, before Hansen's announcement.

It shouldn't have had an effect - especially with Schmidt's successor already in the Ireland camp!

Neil3030

Tea Shock wrote: »

I just remember thinking, while I was delighted to beat the all-blacks 11 months ago. it was a terrible time to do so given what they have a habit of doing to teams the next time they play them after being beaten by them!

Also, Steven Hansen and Warren Gatland announced they were stepping away from NZ and Wales at around the same time as Schmidt's announcement. Wales then went and won the grand slam and reached a 3rd RWC semi final. New Zealand, while they had a disappointing year with 2 terrible performances against Australia and England, didn't fall anywhere near as far as Ireland and were already showing signs of slipping in last November's series, before Hansen's announcement.

It shouldn't have had an effect - especially with Schmidt's successor already in the Ireland camp!

I'll defer to any Kiwis on this, but I suspect one win in the Rugby Championship and departing the RWC at the semi-final stage is a fairly disastrous year for them.

Can't disagree with you on Gatland though, Wales have been superb this year.

Shefwedfan

Neil3030 wrote: »

I'll defer to any Kiwis on this, but I suspect one win in the Rugby Championship and departing the RWC at the semi-final stage is a fairly disastrous year for them.

Can't disagree with you on Gatland though, Wales have been superb this year.

Wales have been superb? are we saying the result are superb? or are you saying the rugby is?

Gatland has walked off and left Wales a number of times. Didn't seem to knock them back. It was mentioned on a podcast with Matt Williams because Joe was such an influence on the team his announcement might have had a bigger knock on......

NZ see the result against England as a bigger upset than I think we do about losing in Qtr's.....it is a disaster. Some "fans" also saying that if Hansen wasn't leaving he would be fired.....similar to some of the stuff on here

Shefwedfan

Talking to Saracens fan and he said Marmion will be with them next year, word on street over their it will happen....

blinding

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Talking to Saracens fan and he said Marmion will be with them next year, word on street over their it will happen....

Good Player , never given a fair crack of the whip by Ireland especially as Murray had gone down hill at an alarming rate . I wonder did Joe and the IRFU know this was a possibility / probability before the world cup = could explain his omission .

aloooof

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Talking to Saracens fan and he said Marmion will be with them next year, word on street over their it will happen....

It's just speculation, I wouldn't read too much into it until anything is officially announced (much like the Aussie fans who told you that Larkham definitely wouldn't sign for Munster).

blinding wrote: »

Good Player , never given a fair crack of the whip by Ireland especially as Murray had gone down hill at an alarming rate . I wonder did Joe and the IRFU know this was a possibility / probability before the world cup = could explain his omission .

Highly doubtful it explains his omission. SOB was moving to London Irish after the WC, and he would've been available but for injury. There's no reason to think a player leaving next year would have been excluded.

Vinnie222

aloooof wrote: »

It's just speculation, I wouldn't read too much into it until anything is officially announced (much like the Aussie fans who told you that Larkham definitely wouldn't sign for Munster).

Highly doubtful it explains his omission. SOB was moving to London Irish after the WC, and he would've been available but for injury. There's no reason to think a player leaving next year would have been excluded.

That rumour was in the indo the other day, nice move for him if its true

Henry Ford III

Marmion's late father Mick (R.I.P.) had connections with Sarries through Campion Old Boys.

Zzippy

Henry Ford III wrote: »

Marmion's late father Mick (R.I.P.) had connections with Sarries through Campion Old Boys.

I think he actually played for them when they were a junior side.

Shefwedfan

aloooof wrote: »

It's just speculation, I wouldn't read too much into it until anything is officially announced (much like the Aussie fans who told you that Larkham definitely wouldn't sign for Munster).

Hence why I said I talked to a fan, if I talked to Marmion or Larkham direct I would have mentioned it :P

aloooof wrote: »

Highly doubtful it explains his omission. SOB was moving to London Irish after the WC, and he would've been available but for injury. There's no reason to think a player leaving next year would have been excluded.

He wasn't kicked out of WC squad because of it.....

He might move because he wasn't in the WC squad....looking at it from his point of view, if he isn't going to get a chance with Ireland it is hardly worth slogging away with Connacht for another 4 years. Head off to Sarries and you are now in one of the strongest squads in Europe.

ClanofLams

Marmion extremely likely to get another chance with Ireland, given he is one of only two scrum halves who have started any game of consequence against a top tier side with Ireland over the last six years and the other one has been out of form for the last twelve months.

But even aside from Ireland, rugby isn’t the sole thing in lives of players. Marmion has family in Galway and Ireland, has been here almost a decade and is obviously well settled, etc

There’s reasons to go too of course including a nice salary bump presumably and moving to the top side in Europe.

blinding

It could get very embarrassing for the IRFU if Marmion plays very well / astoundingly well for Saracens !

[Deleted User]

aloooof wrote: »

Highly doubtful it explains his omission. SOB was moving to London Irish after the WC, and he would've been available but for injury. There's no reason to think a player leaving next year would have been excluded.

SOB is a once in a generation player. There is no point comparing any bar a tiny handful against him.

blinding wrote: »

It could get very embarrassing for the IRFU if Marmion plays very well / astoundingly well for Saracens !

It wouldn't. He's a talented player, I was surprised he didn't make the World Cup squad and he's beaten the All Blacks.

But if he went to probably the best team in Europe it would be fully understandable and the IRFU wouldn't really come into it. He can chase the starting jersey and be paid well whether he gets it or not.

ClanofLams wrote: »

Marmion extremely likely to get another chance with Ireland

Yeah I think so too. He'll be in the shake up anyway.

Jameson Gibson Park imo is going to be up there also. He has a different style of play to our other 9s and I'd be interested to see if his ability to find time on the ball translates to international level.

Shefwedfan

blinding wrote: »

It could get very embarrassing for the IRFU if Marmion plays very well / astoundingly well for Saracens !

Not really, players form go up and down all the time....if he goes I think everyone will wish him well and hope it goes well for him....I can’t see anyone hoping he doesn’t play well because it might embarrass the irfu

He will be standing behind one of the best packs in Europe, armchair ride

ClanofLams

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Yeah I think so too. He'll be in the shake up anyway.

Jameson Gibson Park imo is going to be up there also. He has a different style of play to our other 9s and I'd be interested to see if his ability to find time on the ball translates to international level.

Maybe. I find it hard to see any no.2 provincial 9 being included. Blade is playing well at Connacht but he faces a similar challenge, needs to be first choice to be in contention for Ireland.

Murray, McGrath, Marmion (I think but he’s under pressure from Blade) and Cooney are all likely to be playing champions cup in the coming months. Very difficult for a guy getting 10-20 mins off the bench to leapfrog those.

blinding

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Not really, players form go up and down all the time....if he goes I think everyone will wish him well and hope it goes well for him....I can’t see anyone hoping he doesn’t play well because it might embarrass the irfu

He will be standing behind one of the best packs in Europe, armchair ride

They want him to drive the armchair . They must think he is a good Driver .

shootermacg

Marmion is one of thew top scrum halves around. Absolute travesty that they left him behind for Luke McGrath who isn't anywhere near his level. You can't really blame him for deciding to take care of himself.

salmocab

blinding wrote: »

They want him to drive the armchair . They must think he is a good Driver .

Don’t think anyone is arguing otherwise

[Deleted User]

ClanofLams wrote: »

Maybe. I find it hard to see any no.2 provincial 9 being included. Blade is playing well at Connacht but he faces a similar challenge, needs to be first choice to be in contention for Ireland.

Murray, McGrath, Marmion (I think but he’s under pressure from Blade) and Cooney are all likely to be playing champions cup in the coming months. Very difficult for a guy getting 10-20 mins off the bench to leapfrog those.

There have been a couple of examples over the years of provincial 1 & 2's being picked. This world cup alone we had Furlong / Porter as 1 and 2 for Ireland.

It's unusual mostly because if a no.2 is good enough they'll move for the top spot. This may happen with JGP but he's unlikely to usurp Murray or Cooney and only if Marmion leaves would an option materialise. I don't see JGP going abroad at this stage having just come into contention.

I can see JGP / McGrath being the new Reddan / Boss.

Shefwedfan

shootermacg wrote: »

Marmion is one of thew top scrum halves around. Absolute travesty that they left him behind for Luke McGrath who isn't anywhere near his level. You can't really blame him for deciding to take care of himself.

I don’t think that much between them. People on here seem to have some issue with McGrath and not sure why. If he was as terrible as people make out I don’t see why leinster would hold onto him for so long....

I don’t think anyone is saying he shouldn’t look after himself. In reality he has hung around for 4 years and never really threatened taking the starting 9 jersey from Murray. This is potentially his last big contract and he will not be on a central contract with Ireland.

Will he get the 9 jersey in the next 2-3 years? Hard to see it happening. Blade is on his ass in Connacht, Murray could still make another WC, the young9 at Munster looks a prospect, McGrath and JGP at Leinster.

Unless Farrell goes down and says “your my starting 9 this 6 nations” I would expect him to leave and take a big pay day

Bridge93

I don’t want this to sound like an attack on marmion as it’s not, I think he’s a very good player and I’d have brought him to Japan. The Connacht fans may be able to shed light on if there are other reasons behind it but why is he second choice at Connacht? Has Caolan Blade not overtaken him so far this year? Talk that he’s miles ahead of McGrath and one of the top scrum halves around really doesn’t tally with what’s going on. He’s been dropped by Ireland by people who see far more of them than we do, and appears to have been dropped by Connacht. I’d fully understand if he looked to take the money. And it’d be a shame but Ireland and Connacht move on.

Blade incidentally must be working is way into contention for at worst extended squads. He’s getting better and better