Ireland Team Talk XI: Team of nervoUS MOD warning Post 1

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I literally said this and went through it in my post.
It's not a mental block when it comes to world cups. It's a lack of mental strength and an inability to deal with pressure and adversity on a wider level.

You did, my apologies. It certainly might be a factor but I find it difficult to attribute Ireland’s terribles performances this year down to that. In 2017 we rebounded to beat England and have a good November series. There has been almost no positive performances this year, bar France and Scotland, both teams were a shambles.

ClanofLams wrote: »

You did, my apologies. It certainly might be a factor but I find it difficult to attribute Ireland’s terribles performances this year down to that. In 2017 we rebounded to beat England and have a good November series. There has been almost no positive performances this year, bar France and Scotland, both teams were a shambles.

We just about salvaged that 6 Nations with a home win against an England team who aren't close to where they are today. And then our "good" November series was beating probably the worst South Africa side in modern history and then games against weak Fiji and Argentina sides. Hardly something to remember.

We were well beaten by Scotland and Wales that year. We were particularly bad against Wales, barely fired a shot. And that was a year where teams weren't gearing up for a world cup.

And 2017 wasn't the only year we had multiple poor performances and let that creep into our general play. In fact if anything, 2018 stands alone. In general once that team under Schmidt started to struggle, whether in the context of a wider game or within the course of a single game, they often found it very difficult to rise above that and turn things around. I think that malaise set in early this year and was never really dispelled. And we were never going to be a good enough team to overcome that as a problem for long.

I think there's a strong chance that if Sexton doesn't nail that drop goal in 2018 that we could well have seem the same malaise set in, gone on to lose another game, failed to win our series in Oz and not been in the same place by the time New Zealand arrived in Dublin. I can't overstate how similar that performance against France was to some of our performances this year.

Thats the thing did the drop goal not paper over serious cracks?

I said it at the time. We were terrible most of the game. Obviously comes across as laughable considering the outcome

But the last sequence, magnificent in terms of work rate, discipline, cohesion, teamwork and execution was the sort of rugby Joe loved and things like that set him on the path of not wanting to change it. I mean it was a green machine purring at that time. But the amount of effort needed to get those 3 points was also a snapshot that it was never viable in a World Cup knock out stage.

Niallof9 wrote: »

I said it at the time.

You didn't make a single post in the rugby forum in 2018

irishbucsfan wrote: »

We just about salvaged that 6 Nations with a home win against an England team who aren't close to where they are today. And then our "good" November series was beating probably the worst South Africa side in modern history and then games against weak Fiji and Argentina sides. Hardly something to remember.

We were well beaten by Scotland and Wales that year. We were particularly bad against Wales, barely fired a shot. And that was a year where teams weren't gearing up for a world cup.

And 2017 wasn't the only year we had multiple poor performances and let that creep into our general play. In fact if anything, 2018 stands alone. In general once that team under Schmidt started to struggle, whether in the context of a wider game or within the course of a single game, they often found it very difficult to rise above that and turn things around. I think that malaise set in early this year and was never really dispelled. And we were never going to be a good enough team to overcome that as a problem for long.

I think there's a strong chance that if Sexton doesn't nail that drop goal in 2018 that we could well have seem the same malaise set in, gone on to lose another game, failed to win our series in Oz and not been in the same place by the time New Zealand arrived in Dublin. I can't overstate how similar that performance against France was to some of our performances this year.

I think you’re extrapolating an awful lot based on not a whole pile. The 2018 team was fairly significantly different to the ‘17 team. It was the first six nations for James Ryan, Jacob Stockdale, Bundee Aki, Dan Leavy (aside from one appearance off the bench when Heaslio pulled out). Ryan and Leavy are arguably world class or at least close to it at their best, two players of that standard makes a big difference.

There have been times when Ireland have played poorly yes. I think it’s more probable Irish supporters tend to over-rate the team than a long term mental fragility has affected them, particularly when many of the same players display no such fragility in their provincial colours. I suppose you could raise Munsters track record in semi finals but again I think that’s about the standard Munster have been, good enough to be contenders but not quite good enough to win.

irishbucsfan wrote: »

You didn't make a single post in the rugby forum in 2018

I didn't say it on here. does it really matter

actually sorry it must have been said on an alter ego. there was a good bit of back and forth regarding this stuff back in the day. I've never been a massive fan of Schmidt's way of playing ever since he became coach. He seemed to have switched when he left Leinster

ClanofLams wrote: »

I think you’re extrapolating an awful lot based on not a whole pile. The 2018 team was fairly significantly different to the ‘17 team. It was the first six nations for James Ryan, Jacob Stockdale, Bundee Aki, Dan Leavy (aside from one appearance off the bench when Heaslio pulled out). Ryan and Leavy are arguably world class or at least close to it at their best, two players of that standard makes a big difference.

All world class players, doesn't explain that France performance. Those players are still world class today. Doesn't explain why they failed to perform since last November (bar Leavy of course).

Yes I'm extrapolating. Because I'm a fan with no access to the squad whatsoever and who doesn't see 99% of what goes on. And I think there's far more evidence that there's been an intermittent performance problem with Ireland throughout the duration of Schmidt's tenure than there is that players were unmotivated in various ways due to selection policies.

ClanofLams wrote: »

You talked about a teams winning percentage when Carty was picked last year, you went on and on about in fact as it should be a massive factor in judging a player, check your post history. You also admitted to only having seen him play two times but fet entitled to question his place in the squad on that thorough basis - one of those game last he got man of the match in and the other one he played well but you insisted he had been ‘terrible’, then a few posters pointed out he had done well, reports were linked where he was referenced as having played well and you said something along the lines of ‘well he couldn’t have played that well, they lost 20-3’.

You have repeatedly said he ‘done nothing’ in the six nations. Here’s a report from Murray Kinsella saying he impressed off the bench against Fance and had some nice touches in the limited time he got against Wales. https://www.the42.ie/ireland-schmidt-sexton-murray-wales-4546764-Mar2019/

I think you have massively overstated Carty negative performances in comparison to other on the teams such as Murray and the pack.

‘The problem position in the Japan game was not 9, it was 10’. That’s nonsense. Murray was appalling as was the entire pack. Seriously trying to place the majority of the blame that sh*t show on Carty is ridiculous. Murray is the guy with seventy caps or whatever, Lions, arguably the best nine i the world on form. If they are both terrible (I would argue Carty was slightly better given he at least had a good twenty minutes and created two tries but whatever) Murray should obviously get more blame than the guy getting his second start for Ireland.

I said he struggled at times and looked good at times but this is irrelevant to the larger point of guaranteed positions for certain players:

I have said the issue here isn’t around Marmion or Carty or whoever. It’s about having undroppable people in the team, it was often Leinster players I was suggesting. There’s no provincial bias in me stating O’Mahony should have been dropped, I really like the guy but his form didn’t warrant a spot.

You accuse me of provincial bias but in reality you just can’t handle any criticism of Schmidt or Leinster players. I mean at some point after the Japan you tried to deny Ireland were in a poor run of form by just writing out a list of LWWWL etc etc for 2019 as if that was a reasonable point. Ireland had been smashed by the only two top tier teams in the six nations and lost to Japan. Seriously trying to claim that somehow wasn’t a poor run of form was Comical Ali stuff.

As I posted at the time I was going to be positive about Ireland during the WC, people seem to have an issue with this and start calling names etc which you seem to persist with.....

You do understand what provincial bias is? how is calling for POM to be dropped not showing provincial bias? has he moved to Connacht

Carty has been given plenty of chances and has shown zero to nothing. ROG, Sexton, Carbery etc all got limited time at the start of their Ireland career and shown what they could do. Carty has not.

If we are doing an overhaul of the squad then we need players who are going to push the players in front of them, Carty is 27 and will be 31 in next WC.....Ireland would better picking a young 10 now and putting time into them. Carty will never push either an aging Sexton or Carbery to start in front of them so really it is a waste of time.

On that list I would include Toner, Cronin, POM, Sexton, Kearney, etc etc even if you like Ross Byrne as he would be an excellent squad player but never really going to push to be the starting 10

irishbucsfan wrote: »

All world class players, doesn't explain that France performance. Those players are still world class today. Doesn't explain why they failed to perform since last November (bar Leavy of course).

Yes I'm extrapolating. Because I'm a fan with no access to the squad whatsoever and who doesn't see 99% of what goes on. And I think there's far more evidence that there's been an intermittent performance problem with Ireland throughout the duration of Schmidt's tenure than there is that players were unmotivated in various ways due to selection policies.

You have also mentioned Kidneys era. That team got about what they deserved, a grand slam in 09. Wales were just a superior side in 2011. That would be an example, in my view, of a side being over rated.

One of the most common adjectives associated with elite coaches is ruthlessness. Across sports Hansen, Cody, Gavin, Ferguson, etc As I mentioned last night look at any consistently successful team and you won’t have to examine them too long before you see established players being dropped in short order when performances dip.

It’s an adjective that has been associated with Schmidt too and I suppose he showed it dropping Toner. But it hasn’t been displayed enough in 2019 and a culture of certain players being undroppable, played regardless of form has affected the performances of the team. I think that’s likely to be a much more significant factor that mental fragility when talking about a successful group of players, many of whom have won every medal in the game bar the World Cup.

Eoin Reddan, who obviously knows him well, seems to have enormous respect for him and has a far better idea of what goes in Ireland camp, how Schmidt operates, etc has a similar view.

Just to repeat, I don’t mean to downplay Schmidts achievements. He has been the greatest coach Ireland ever had and he leaves Irish rugby transformed in large part by his presence over the last decade.

Shefwedfan wrote: »

As I posted at the time I was going to be positive about Ireland during the WC, people seem to have an issue with this and start calling names etc which you seem to persist with.....

You do understand what provincial bias is? how is calling for POM to be dropped not showing provincial bias? has he moved to Connacht

Carty has been given plenty of chances and has shown zero to nothing. ROG, Sexton, Carbery etc all got limited time at the start of their Ireland career and shown what they could do. Carty has not.

If we are doing an overhaul of the squad then we need players who are going to push the players in front of them, Carty is 27 and will be 31 in next WC.....Ireland would better picking a young 10 now and putting time into them. Carty will never push either an aging Sexton or Carbery to start in front of them so really it is a waste of time.

On that list I would include Toner, Cronin, POM, Sexton, Kearney, etc etc even if you like Ross Byrne as he would be an excellent squad player but never really going to push to be the starting 10

FFS where to start with this? Provincial bias would be wanting POM replaced with someone from Connacht not Ruddock or Conan, I can assure you I certainly don’t have any bias towards Leinster players.

Whatever way you’re spinning it, arguing Ireland weren’t in poor run of form after the Japan game was absolutely ludicrous.

I am not saying Carty should be included in future squads at the moment. I think both he and Byrne are contenders. Byrne was awful against England but I wouldn’t rule him out on that because it’s insufficient time and far more experienced guys were awful around him. Carty got about forty minutes off the bench in the six nations which he did well for as noted by Murray Kinsella. You just kept banging on him about how he ‘done nothing’.

He done fairy well in the warm ups, good against Italy, very good first half against Wales, definitely faded out of it in the second. He had some good moments in the World Cup and struggled when everyone around him also struggled. Saying he has showed nothing is simply untrue, he has displayed some excellent creativity and really varied attack, something Ireland have been lacking most of the year. You could definitely say he hasn’t controlled games in the fashion you would want but that may be something he can get better at with experience and playing alongside guys in some sort of form would also assist.

He has had two starts for Ireland and his game time has almost entirely been in a team playing awful stuff. I think it’s ridiculous to rule a guy in those circumstances but look think whatever you want.

Eoin Reddan recently, on the idea about how Irish teams play referencing Connacht :

‘People were laughing at them in the depths of winter for trying to play it, in December they were getting absolutely ridiculed and they showed up in may twenty five degrees in Edinburgh and ran us off the park. It was like a different type of game than I had played against’

blinding

If Farrell gets slaughtered bring in Pat Lam .

ah no i'm not advocating that just saying it in regards to the refrains we sometimes hear about weather, time, whatever. Lam is as dogmatic to his style as Joe is to his.

Its all about balance

Who knows maybe Andy loves offloading and skills. He's a league background, far more skillful players at least back in the day or in Australia.

He just cannot come in and not change. The players are listening to nearly the same voices, which isn't ideal, and im sure certain players are pissed off at not being selected.

I have a weird feeling we will see the same ****ing 15 apart from Best in 14 weeks time. Like we saw in 07 and 2011 the dismal World cup wasn't enough to enforce change, it took a ****e six nations on top till it finally dawned. If Farrell has a **** six nations picking the same lads, Australia tour will be his last go of it imo.

ClanofLams wrote: »

FFS where to start with this? Provincial bias would be wanting POM replaced with someone from Connacht not Ruddock or Conan, I can assure you I certainly don’t have any bias towards Leinster players.

Whatever way you’re spinning it, arguing Ireland weren’t in poor run of form after the Japan game was absolutely ludicrous.

I am not saying Carty should be included in future squads at the moment. I think both he and Byrne are contenders. Byrne was awful against England but I wouldn’t rule him out on that because it’s insufficient time and far more experienced guys were awful around him. Carty got about forty minutes off the bench in the six nations which he did well for as noted by Murray Kinsella. You just kept banging on him about how he ‘done nothing’.

He done fairy well in the warm ups, good against Italy, very good first half against Wales, definitely faded out of it in the second. He had some good moments in the World Cup and struggled when everyone around him also struggled. Saying he has showed nothing is simply untrue, he has displayed some excellent creativity and really varied attack, something Ireland have been lacking most of the year. You could definitely say he hasn’t controlled games in the fashion you would want but that may be something he can get better at with experience and playing alongside guys in some sort of form would also assist.

He has had two starts for Ireland and his game time has almost entirely been in a team playing awful stuff. I think it’s ridiculous to rule a guy in those circumstances but look think whatever you want.

Carbery has played less minutes for Ireland this year compared to Carty. So he has had more than plenty of chances.

Are we expected to keep banging on this drum in the hope at some stage he might be able to pull out a 40 minute or even an 80 minute performance? something he has failed to do so far.

How many caps do you want him to have before we move to the next player?

You seem to have one rule for players and then another rule for Connnacht players. You slate other players and asked for them to be dropped but when a Connacht players is clearly not performing then they require more time.

blinding

Was bringing Carberry when he was not fit enough for the early games a big mistake ? Its not as if he was a sure thing even when fit !

irishbucsfan wrote: »

We just about salvaged that 6 Nations with a home win against an England team who aren't close to where they are today. And then our "good" November series was beating probably the worst South Africa side in modern history and then games against weak Fiji and Argentina sides. Hardly something to remember.

We were well beaten by Scotland and Wales that year. We were particularly bad against Wales, barely fired a shot. And that was a year where teams weren't gearing up for a world cup.

And 2017 wasn't the only year we had multiple poor performances and let that creep into our general play. In fact if anything, 2018 stands alone. In general once that team under Schmidt started to struggle, whether in the context of a wider game or within the course of a single game, they often found it very difficult to rise above that and turn things around. I think that malaise set in early this year and was never really dispelled. And we were never going to be a good enough team to overcome that as a problem for long.

I think there's a strong chance that if Sexton doesn't nail that drop goal in 2018 that we could well have seem the same malaise set in, gone on to lose another game, failed to win our series in Oz and not been in the same place by the time New Zealand arrived in Dublin. I can't overstate how similar that performance against France was to some of our performances this year.

This post is probably a good view of the supporters. 2017 would be a transition year between the WC's I think it might be good to say. We moved players on and brought in new players. But now it is remembered as Ireland been ****e.

So loads of posts on here about throwing a 6 nations but when Ireland lose 2 games in a 6 nations it is used as a reference.

We are also complaining about the grand Slam, did you watch the Welsh Grand Slam this year which everyone is raving about and how great Gatland was? France absolutely hammered them for 40 minutes and then decided they wanted Wales to win.....England shot themselves in the foot. Scotland should of beat them. Even Italy could have beaten them if they didn't make stupid mistakes.

We had one moment in France of exceptional quality from the team to get the drop goal. Then scored a massive amount of tries in all the other games, including hammering England in Twickers.

Wales scored the least tries ever in a Grand Slam and had a number of dodgy games but they are seen as great.

blinding wrote: »

Was bringing Carberry when he was not fit enough for the early games a big mistake ? Its not as if he was a sure thing even when fit !

Well his back up was Carty, I think we know my feeling on him.

Carbery was supposed to be back for the Japan game....he had a set back and at that stage we had to hold onto him as we had no alternative.

This is another case of people suggesting to drop XYZ but who exactly was the back up who could step in?

Shefwedfan wrote: »

This post is probably a good view of the supporters. 2017 would be a transition year between the WC's I think it might be good to say. We moved players on and brought in new players. But now it is remembered as Ireland been ****e.

So loads of posts on here about throwing a 6 nations but when Ireland lose 2 games in a 6 nations it is used as a reference.

We are also complaining about the grand Slam, did you watch the Welsh Grand Slam this year which everyone is raving about and how great Gatland was? France absolutely hammered them for 40 minutes and then decided they wanted Wales to win.....England shot themselves in the foot. Scotland should of beat them. Even Italy could have beaten them if they didn't make stupid mistakes.

We had one moment in France of exceptional quality from the team to get the drop goal. Then scored a massive amount of tries in all the other games, including hammering England in Twickers.

Wales scored the least tries ever in a Grand Slam and had a number of dodgy games but they are seen as great.

Irish buccs is one of the most knowledgeable and even handed posters on here in fairness.

I don't think thats what he's saying

I would say it though. The rugby was ****e. We kicked our way to two championships, and the Grand Slam was great irs hard to argue with it. But if the kick doesn't go over then imo the world cup we just had doesn't happen, Joe would have rebuilt.

Niallof9 wrote: »

Irish buccs is one of the most knowledgeable and even handed posters on here in fairness.

I don't think thats what he's saying

I would say it though. The rugby was ****e. We kicked our way to two championships, and the Grand Slam was great irs hard to argue with it. But if the kick doesn't go over then imo the world cup we just had doesn't happen, Joe would have rebuilt.

What would you describe the rugby Wales played to win the Grand Slam and the current style in the WC?

ClanofLams wrote: »

You have also mentioned Kidneys era. That team got about what they deserved, a grand slam in 09. Wales were just a superior side in 2011. That would be an example, in my view, of a side being over rated.

Really? They were just over rated? I'd say in almost every position on that day we had one of the top couple players we've ever had in the professional era. And yet they barely took a shot at Wales, caught completely cold. On the biggest day of their careers.

Now obviously there were other problems, the decision to pick ROG and general gameplan failures, but we also greatly underperformed on the day. A common problem.

ClanofLams wrote: »

One of the most common adjectives associated with elite coaches is ruthlessness. Across sports Hansen, Cody, Gavin, Ferguson, etc As I mentioned last night look at any consistently successful team and you won’t have to examine them too long before you see established players being dropped in short order when performances dip.

Just like Schmidt dropping Toner. As you said, he has also been called ruthless. It's almost like even a pragmatic experienced coach can't just fix his problems with an entire team underperforming by dropping the entire team... Almost like a coach is responsible for more than just picking a team. It's not championship manager 2001.

It's interesting that this has been identified by people with huge experience of success in the game as a problem. Its been identified by people present as a problem. There's a clear example of a focus on this side of the game greatly improving a team's ability to deliver on their percieved potential with more consistency. There's a lot of symptoms across Irish rugby that match up to similar problems. And yet you're dismissing it out of hand.

Wegians89

blinding wrote: »

If Farrell gets slaughtered bring in Pat Lam .

Don’t think Lam would work well with such limited time on the pitch that you get at international level. I’d love to see what he could do In like a director of rugby sort role where he’d be in charge of up skulking all four provincial sides.

Shefwedfan wrote: »

What would you describe the rugby Wales played to win the Grand Slam and the current style in the WC?

Better than Irelands. More adaptable and pragmatic than ours. Andy Farrell has extensive links so maybe he'll follow suit.

Niallof9 wrote: »

Better than Irelands. More adaptable and pragmatic than ours. Andy Farrell has extensive links so maybe he'll follow suit.

How is it adaptable?

They can't score tries and the whole game plan is based on defend defend defend defend and then hope the team make a mistake

Sorry I forgot, kick kick kick kick......

Wegians89 wrote: »

Don’t think Lam would work well with such limited time on the pitch that you get at international level. I’d love to see what he could do In like a director of rugby sort role where he’d be in charge of up skulking all four provincial sides.

No Ireland head coach is going to change the skill set of players with the limited time they have the players, plus once they teach them anything they head back to province and told to forget it all

It needs to be implemented at a lower level, invest in training underage coach's so the players are learning skills when young. This is what Joe and Nucifora where doing, hopefully Nucifora and Farrell will continue.....

Shefwedfan wrote: »

How is it adaptable?

They can't score tries and the whole game plan is based on defend defend defend defend and then hope the team make a mistake

Sorry I forgot, kick kick kick kick......

More adaptable over multiple seasons. Look they don't play brilliant stuff but they, definitely have a better running game and like to keep the ball more alive than we do, they keep at it and have made three semi finals. We can't take any pops at Wales. Ireland play a pretty similar game at times like you say.

The Lost Sheep

Shefwedfan wrote: »

No Ireland head coach is going to change the skill set of players with the limited time they have the players, plus once they teach them anything they head back to province and told to forget it all

It needs to be implemented at a lower level, invest in training underage coach's so the players are learning skills when young. This is what Joe and Nucifora where doing, hopefully Nucifora and Farrell will continue.....

but Joe schmidt was not involved in that work at lower levels. Nucifora it's his job. If you want to improve skills you need to start with changes for coaching and coaches and how rugby is played from age of 13 and on I'd not beforehand. But not sure what we do in terms of coaching coaches. Do we get development officers from the 4 provinces to do more with schools and help improve what coaches do

aloooof

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

but Joe schmidt was not involved in that work at lower levels. Nucifora it's his job. If you want to improve skills you need to start with changes for coaching and coaches and how rugby is played from age of 13 and on I'd not beforehand. But not sure what we do in terms of coaching coaches. Do we get development officers from the 4 provinces to do more with schools and help improve what coaches do

One of NZ's KPI's in their annual reports which I thought interesting is to increase the numbers of underage coaches so that there are max 12 players per coach. I can't say I know what the number in Ireland is, but that level of time with a coach is only going to help skills from an early age.