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Ireland Team Talk XI: Team of nervoUS MOD warning Post 1

[Deleted User]

Continued from here
https://touch.boards.ie/thread/2057953711/251
All Ireland Senior XV related talk here.

MOD: Bear in mind this thread is starting during the World Cup window and the zero tolerance policy is in force. Trolling will be rewarded with an instant ban. For the duration of the tournament any mention of Zebo in this thread will not be permitted, it is just dragging current Ireland squad talk off topic.

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Shefwedfan

Donnielighto wrote: »

Left out the word team, took me a sec to figure that one out looking at it. Corrected now.

I thought Cooney and blade were on better form than Murray and McGrath from Christmas onwards, would have liked to have seen one of those getting tried out. Not to say they should have started but we had more than 3 sh available.

It kind of going in circles now

So Marmion was the one everyone wanted but now he wasn't the form 9 in Ireland so we are talking about Cooney and Blade?

aloooof

Yeah_Right wrote: »

A lot of people are calling for Ireland to play a more expansive game moving the ball at pace. I don't think that the current Irish players have the skills to do this. Look at the handling in the last game and the whole RWC. Simple passes were being dropped or poorly thrown. Ball security was poor. Its something that needs to be taught and worked on earlier. International level is too late. It needs to be drilled into players at a much younger age and then worked on and improved at every level through out there career. Same with off-loading. It needs to be instinctive and not a thought process.

I have never been involved with rugby at any level in Ireland so I am speculating that skills training doesn't get a lot of focus. Maybe it does and the players are just really crap at it. I remember doing skills games and drills as part of our warm up for every training and a lot of times doing a handling drill at the end of training when we were knackered to make sure that our standards stayed high even when exhausted.

It took Pat Lam 3 years (I think) to get the Connacht players skills to the level that they could execute his game plan and he was working with them every day. There's no way an international coach can do that.

Completely agree with this.

I remember seeing an interview with Schmidt in the early days of his Irish tenure, where he was at a schools underage training session, and he was challenging the players to take it as flat and as late to the line as possible during a drill. I'm hopeful we'll continue to see the influence Schmidt has had on Irish rugby long after his departure.

Donnielighto

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Marmion???

You do realize he never played after the NZ win due to injury and he was only available for the Wales game and came on in that.....

Also not sure what you mean about "9 on the form doesn't always mean the form 9", as I asked when was Marmion playing to show he was the form 9 in Ireland?

Left out the word team, took me a sec to figure that one out looking at it. Corrected now.

I thought Cooney and blade were on better form than Murray and McGrath from Christmas onwards, would have liked to have seen one of those getting tried out. Not to say they should have started but we had more than 3 sh available.

Shefwedfan

Donnielighto wrote: »

9 on the form doesn't always mean the form 9. He should have got starts in decent games in the 6n

Marmion???

You do realize he never played after the NZ win due to injury and he was only available for the Wales game and came on in that.....

Also not sure what you mean about "9 on the form doesn't always mean the form 9", as I asked when was Marmion playing to show he was the form 9 in Ireland?

Yeah_Right

A lot of people are calling for Ireland to play a more expansive game moving the ball at pace. I don't think that the current Irish players have the skills to do this. Look at the handling in the last game and the whole RWC. Simple passes were being dropped or poorly thrown. Ball security was poor. Its something that needs to be taught and worked on earlier. International level is too late. It needs to be drilled into players at a much younger age and then worked on and improved at every level through out there career. Same with off-loading. It needs to be instinctive and not a thought process.

I have never been involved with rugby at any level in Ireland so I am speculating that skills training doesn't get a lot of focus. Maybe it does and the players are just really crap at it. I remember doing skills games and drills as part of our warm up for every training and a lot of times doing a handling drill at the end of training when we were knackered to make sure that our standards stayed high even when exhausted.

It took Pat Lam 3 years (I think) to get the Connacht players skills to the level that they could execute his game plan and he was working with them every day. There's no way an international coach can do that.

Donnielighto

Shefwedfan wrote: »

And he has played what since?

People complain about not picking players in form....then Joe drops a player and people complain.

Since the NZ match Marmion spent a huge portion of it on injury list, when he returned he even struggled to get into the Connacht team.

McGrath was playing regular with Lesinter and got to 2 finals. Playing in both and winning the pro 14. Would he not be the form 9 apart from Murray?

9 on the form team doesn't always mean the form 9. He should have got starts in decent games in the 6n

odyboody

IRFU need to look at what they are looking for. Do they stick with the current win the 6 nations / Grand slam at all costs, or should they take the longer view of getting a team prepared for the next world cup. There were too many picked on past glories, be that they were suffering lack of form or returning from injury they shouldn't have gone in the hope they would come right. Henshaw for example is a fantastic player, he had no form going into the world cup because of injury and it showed.

blinding

Luke McGrath certainly was not good enough to challenge Murray or even come on for Murray .

Shefwedfan

blinding wrote: »

Leaving him at home was a mistake .

Why? he was never going to take the number 9 jersey off Murray.....if he hadn't done it for the last 4 years he certainly wasn't going to do it in Japan

whatawaster

blinding wrote: »

Leaving him at home was a mistake .

I don't think it made the slightest difference

Shefwedfan

Interested Observer wrote: »

Marmion started the game in Nov where we beat NZ and he was left at home.

And he has played what since?

People complain about not picking players in form....then Joe drops a player and people complain.

Since the NZ match Marmion spent a huge portion of it on injury list, when he returned he even struggled to get into the Connacht team.

McGrath was playing regular with Lesinter and got to 2 finals. Playing in both and winning the pro 14. Would he not be the form 9 apart from Murray?

blinding

Interested Observer wrote: »

Marmion started the game in Nov where we beat NZ and he was left at home.

Leaving him at home was a mistake .

[Deleted User]

blinding wrote: »

Murray did not come good and there was no viable alternative .

Marmion started the game in Nov where we beat NZ and he was left at home.

blinding

Murray did not come good and there was no viable alternative .

The Iron Giant

Jamison Gibson Park could start figuring into Farrell's plans now that he is eligible. He had a rocky patch a few years ago but his form over the last two years has been excellent. I'd really like to see him given a chance.

He's only 27 as well so he's the right age to look at and invest time into if Murray can't recapture form (which is looking somewhat possible) or if Farrell wants to change it up.

is_that_so

Just did some age checking. Healy, Earls, POM, Stander, Murray and Aki will be well into their thirties by the next RWC. Half of them are over 30 already. We do need to drill down into the provinces and clubs for talent and use them for a transition to much younger options.

Shefwedfan

blinding wrote: »

Well , I think so . He should have been given his chance with Leinster .

Leinster though it was better to invest in JGP, also in McGrath. Even in the knowledge that JGP wouldnt be able to play in Europe....

Marmion has been around the Ireland team for years now and never really pushed Murray at any stage to be the starting 9. Yes he played the odd game when Murray was not available but he was never good enough for people to call him to start. People asked him to start to get experience but not because he was good enough....

The future is not McGrath or Marmion. We need a young player to come up. SImple as that.

ClanofLams

Shefwedfan wrote: »

This is your post

best you can come up with then is 3 players and two of those where in the match day squad????

Three players is a considerable part of a team. But it’s more important than that, it’s showing that form matters and that the team isn’t pre determined. It’s obviously terrible for everyone if s team is locked in. Genuine competition will usually cause players to play better.

Would Murray have lifted his game if he had been dropped in the six nations? Maybe not but it was certainly worth trying.

is_that_so

So what's below the very obvious need to look at replacing some players, by this I mean very young talent who might be on the radar in a couple of years time?

Shefwedfan

ClanofLams wrote: »

Had O’Mahony and Stockdale/Earls done enough to justify selection on form over the last four months?

Was Larmour playing better than Kearney?

Schmidt is the best coach Ireland have ever had. But it seems like on this board only two extremes are allowed, he was a total failure or an infallible genius. The truth usually lies between extremes.

Not really.....I would say Joe made mistakes. He admitted it himself.....I would question the 31 he brought with him and some of the picks in the squad and in the match day.....

But I don't see this total failure stuff...

Niallof9

Professor Genius wrote: »

I knew there was something wrong with their psyche when Stander was bawling like a giant baba after getting MOTM for the Scotland game. It a pool win against a poor team. Reminded me of Madigan being an emotional mess after French game in 2015. It’s not normal.

Yeah the body language and talk was all over the shop.

Best said "there has to be something to lead" in relation to where the group is.

Henderson said "we weren't expecting Japan to play that quick"

crying Stander

Jonny talking of where the negative vibes are coming from

Best looked nervous as hell and a quivering wreck before Saturdays games.

Small tells that gave the game away.

Look i'm starting to come round to the idea that Farrell might just be the man to get these guys to stand the fup up for the jersey. Joe just became too process orientated maybe the passion was gone from the players at times, too nervous to take risks and try stuff.

some interesting stuff in this article:
https://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/international-rugby/brendan-fanning-a-wretched-way-to-finish-a-journey-that-had-started-so-well-38612223.html

"Behind closed doors he was less concerned with image. Rather he was obsessed with detail. Players were given the info and expected to learn it, then the info was taken away. If they didn't remember it on the training field they could expect to be filleted and eaten raw. Lots of them were devoured. Before the Italy game in the last World Cup Ireland had a training run with Harlequins at the Stoop. A knowledgeable man who watched it said at the time: "I've never seen so many senior players so **** scared in all my life."

blinding

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Is Marmion any better to McGrath? that is bigger question....

Well , I think so . He should have been given his chance with Leinster .

Shefwedfan

blinding wrote: »

Marmion should have been moved to Leinster to get higher level playing time . McGrath was not good enough to put pressure on Murray .

Is Marmion any better to McGrath? that is bigger question....

Professor Genius

Burkie1203 wrote: »

Standers wife whinging about the media criticism of how crap the team performed.

I knew there was something wrong with their psyche when Stander was bawling like a giant baba after getting MOTM for the Scotland game. It a pool win against a poor team. Reminded me of Madigan being an emotional mess after French game in 2015. It’s not normal.

ClanofLams

Former Former wrote: »

Fringe players thinking they should be in the team is hardly a shocking revelation or a damning indictment of Schmidt.

Ask Jack McGrath or Devin Toner how being an absolute stalwart of Joe's teams for five and a half years worked out for them. Ask James Ryan or Andrew Porter if Joe is afraid to give young guys a shot.

The players who deserved to be picked got picked. Those who didn't, not so much. A bad player does not become a good player just because the other guys aren't performing.

Whatever happened in Japan, it wasn't a selection issue.

Had O’Mahony and Stockdale/Earls done enough to justify selection on form over the last four months?

Was Larmour playing better than Kearney?

Schmidt is the best coach Ireland have ever had. But it seems like on this board only two extremes are allowed, he was a total failure or an infallible genius. The truth usually lies between extremes.

Shefwedfan

ClanofLams wrote: »

Larmour, Conway, Ruddock.

Kearney wasn’t playing bad but Larmour looked much better.

This is your post

ClanofLams wrote: »

What Ireland needs most is a coach picking on form. Schmidt done an excellent job overall but he fell into that terrible habit of certain players becoming undroppable, Murray should have been dropped for at least one game this year. Sexton on the pitch for 72 mins in Cardiff playing like an absolute drain, etc

Murray Kinsella writes today that the feeling among fringe players in the squad was they would never get past those established no matter what they did, terrible place for a squad to be in.

best you can come up with then is 3 players and two of those where in the match day squad????

Niallof9

Former Former wrote: »

Fringe players thinking they should be in the team is hardly a shocking revelation or a damning indictment of Schmidt.

Ask Jack McGrath or Devin Toner how being an absolute stalwart of Joe's teams for five and a half years worked out for them. Ask James Ryan or Andrew Porter if Joe is afraid to give young guys a shot. Ask Kieran Marmion if a pecking order is set in stone. Ask... well, you see where I'm going with this.

The players who deserved to be picked got picked. Those who didn't, not so much. A bad player does not become a good player just because the other guys aren't performing.

Whatever happened in Japan, it wasn't a selection issue.

It ultimately was though.

the shot of Conway sitting in the stands summed up the selection farce.

blinding

JJJackal wrote: »

Marmion is a connacht player
Cooney wasnt starting for connacht enough and moved to ulster

Leinster have McGrath, JGP

Marmion should have been moved to Leinster to get higher level playing time . McGrath was not good enough to put pressure on Murray .

Niallof9

“I think we’d be kidding ourselves if we thought that anything worse than a semi-final is going to be good for us,” said IRFU performance director David Nucifora in May.

lord quackinton

is_that_so wrote: »

Ryan is probably too young for that just yet but apart from Murray or maybe Stander can't think of another option at present. As for the others I'd agree on Henderson and Stockdale. Henshaw is injury prone and I'm not sure what skills you imagine Healy needs to develop.

I honestly think Ireland needs to pick players who can pass
Everything else is secondary now
We are too small to play physical rugby
We need to worry less about set piece and more about moving the ball fast