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Abortion Discussion, Part the Fourth

robindch

...continuing on from previous threads on abortion (abortion part 1, part 2 and part 3).

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smacl

lazygal wrote: »

Shocking findings that contraceptive provision reduces abortion rates. Bit shook tbh.
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/17/opinion/abortion-iud-contraception.html#click=https://t.co/55Wv7so2mB

Very good article. I thought the point about reducing risk of contraceptive failure by using longer term methods such as implants was well made. Great idea for the medics frame this by by asking "are you planning on having a baby in the next year?"

Igotadose

smacl wrote: »

Very good article. I thought the point about reducing risk of contraceptive failure by using longer term methods such as implants was well made. Great idea for the medics frame this by by asking "are you planning on having a baby in the next year?"

Paywalled. Anyone with a summary? Thanks.

aloyisious

Listening to coverage of the Westminster Brexit deal vote on RTE, interviewer on RTE asking Michelle O'Neill S/F if she had heard anything about DUP calling a sitting of the assembly for Monday next to put a motion to the floor about abortion, Michelle said she heard of the move but thinks that it is a DUP manoeuvre. I gather that she sees it as a DUP stunt. From what I know of the chances that the egg will hatch, I concur.

Actually it's day old news: Arlene Foster is backing the idea of Baroness O'Loan https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/stormont-assembly-to-sit-on-monday-to-discuss-abortion-reform-after-mlas-sign-recall-petition-38605559.html

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-50094689

From BBC article: Laws on abortion and same-sex marriage in Northern Ireland will change unless devolved Govt is restored by Monday. The recall will not affect the impending law changes as it would need a Northern Executive to be appointed too.

volchitsa

Igotadose wrote: »

Paywalled. Anyone with a summary? Thanks.

Not a summary but an extract:

The recent decline in Delaware’s abortion rate is pretty stunning. ... the biggest of any state in the country. It was also in keeping with a larger trend: The abortion rate has fallen to its lowest level since the Supreme Court legalized abortion nationwide, according to the Guttmacher Institute.

... Abortions don’t appear to be decreasing because of reduced access (although that is a problem in some places). The rate seems to be falling because of increased use of effective birth control.

That’s why I want to highlight Delaware. It has been arguably the most aggressive state in expanding access to long-acting forms of birth control, like IUDs and other implants. Less than a decade ago, Delaware had the nation’s highest rate of unplanned pregnancies, and its governor at the time — Jack Markell, a Democrat — came to believe it was a major cause of economic hardship for mothers and their families.

“We launched this effort several years ago because we feel so strongly about the link between unintended pregnancies and reduced economic opportunities,” Markell told me yesterday....

(Currently) When a woman of childbearing age goes to the doctor in most places, she gets standard queries about her smoking, drinking, seatbelt use and allergies. In Delaware, she is now also asked: ‘Do you want to get pregnant in the next year?’

If her answer is no, clinics are being trained to ensure she gets whatever form of birth control she wants that very day, whether a prescription or an implant in her arm. … Working with an organization called Upstream, Delaware has rolled out the program to nearly every medical provider in the state over the past three years. It’s having big effects on the number of women requesting and receiving contraception.

(...)
“Birth control pills are currently the most popular contraceptive among American women, followed by condoms. These methods are especially susceptible to human error and have high failure rates. Of 100 women who rely on birth control pills, about six get pregnant every year,” Sarah Kliff, then of Vox, wrote in 2016. “By contrast, long-acting reversible contraceptives (LARCs) like IUDs and implants … are 20 times more effective at preventing pregnancy than the pill.”

(...)

Igotadose

So, by midnight today Abortion is Legal in NI.

What I'm finding amusing is that if NI aligns with UK in its abortion regulations (and there's no reason I can see that it wouldn't,) NI will have a far more liberal abortion regime than here in Ireland. Women might eventually travel north for their terminations. UK doesn't have the 3 day nonsense cooling off privilege, none of this 12 weeks or you need consultants, nada. Hopefully once NI is sorted ROI can progress its legislation.

per this article: https://www.rte.ie/news/2019/1021/1084614-stormont-assembly-abortion/

the anti-choice side in NI is going to do some grandstanding in Stormont, but the assembly won't be restored so the legislation goes into effect. And, most importantly: "If the Stormont Executive is restored at some point after tomorrow, MLAs will not be able to take retrospective action to block the Westminster legislation."

Of course, politicians can always make mischief. I expect a raft of litigation once women start asserting their rights in NI. Further, I don't know if the NHS in NI is equipped yet to provide termination services, and I expect the entrenched god-botherers in NI will do their nefarious best to delay, obstruct, ...

aloyisious

Sitting listening to RTE news. It seems the NI AG, John F Larkin, QC, is involved in the discussion in the assembly, hopefully he will advise those present that dissemblers there cannot overturn the legal effect of the incoming Westminster legislation which does away with the N/I law on abortion and gives same-sex marriage equality with straight marriage in civil law.

volchitsa

aloyisious wrote: »

Sitting listening to RTE news. It seems the NI AG, John F Larkin, QC, is involved in the discussion in the assembly, hopefully he will advise those present that dissemblers there cannot overturn the legal effect of the incoming Westminster legislation which does away with the N/I law on abortion and gives same-sex marriage equality with straight marriage in civil law.

You think Larkin is going to do anything other than take the prolife side? Why?

Igotadose

volchitsa wrote: »

You think Larkin is going to do anything other than take the prolife side? Why?

The pantomime assembly has apparently fallen apart. The SDLP showed up, sprayed, and left. So, onward to women's rights being supported in NI. Abortion services to be available in NI starting in April. As of tonight,
all the prosecutions under the barbaric abortion laws are abandoned, medical professionals can provide information to women, travel and accommodation costs covered regardless of income. FFA abortions can be performed in NI.

Oh, and same-sex marriage and opposite sex civil partnerships are legal now, too.

Great day for human rights in NI. Kind of hard to believe.

https://www.rte.ie/news/2019/1021/1084614-stormont-assembly-abortion/

volchitsa

DUP you mean, I think? The SDLP's official stance, as per Colm Eastwood, was that this was a stunt by the DUP. I know Daniel McCrossan said he was going but I think he's in a minority in that.

And yes, a great day for human rights and normal progressive attitudes in NI. And I'm still pinching myself too.

aloyisious

volchitsa wrote: »

You think Larkin is going to do anything other than take the prolife side? Why?

No, not Pro-life, just I think it would have been directly related to his job: The Attorney General for Northern Ireland is the chief legal adviser to the Northern Ireland Executive for both civil and criminal matters that fall within the devolved powers of the Northern Ireland Assembly.... That quote on AG's job is from Wiki.

I think his advice would have been along the lines of: there is no assembly, there is no devolved Govt, there can therefor be no legal devolved Govt or Assembly moves by people in Stormont against the legislation. It seems the SDLP walkout meant that there could be no way a vote could be taken on the appointment of a new speaker. No speaker = no assembly = no devolved Govt = DUP stalemated. Game time runs out at midnight. It Seems SF did not attend, though I'm not sure as I haven't heard anyone say yea or nay. SF stated the recall was a DUP stunt.

Funny thing is that the AG's job must also be part of the NI civil service to guarantee he still has a job when there is NO sitting Assembly or existing Devolved Govt.

Question: Does anyone have any info on Dawn McAvoy and Both Lives Matter: like how opposed they are to abortion? Her name popped up on a reply I got to a question I put to the net re the sitting.

Loafing Oaf

just some info on the 'interim' abortion regime in NI (according to the Irish News) that comes into effect at midnight

Legal abortions for those women who have received a diagnosis of a fatal or serious foetal abnormality
Women from the north will be able to travel for abortions to England and have their medical, travel and accommodation needs met
Doctors can inform or signpost women to services by supplying them with a phone number for a "central booking service" in England
Any previous cases brought in the north under the 1861 abortion act, including that of a mother who bought abortion pills online for her then 15-year-old daughter, will be dropped

Igotadose

aloyisious wrote: »

Question: Does anyone have any info on Dawn McAvoy and Both Lives Matter: like how opposed they are to abortion? Her name popped up on a reply I got to a question I put to the net re the sitting.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Both_Lives_Matter

Pro-lifers, nothing particularly interesting about them, just one of many feeders at the pro-life trough.

aloyisious

Loafing Oaf wrote: »

just some info on the 'interim' abortion regime in NI (according to the Irish News) that comes into effect at midnight

Legal abortions for those women who have received a diagnosis of a fatal or serious foetal abnormality
Women from the north will be able to travel for abortions to England and have their medical, travel and accommodation needs met
Doctors can inform or signpost women to services by supplying them with a phone number for a "central booking service" in England
Any previous cases brought in the north under the 1861 abortion act, including that of a mother who bought abortion pills online for her then 15-year-old daughter, will be dropped

Re the doctors, I never put thought into how the medical professions were prevented by the law there from any sort of prescribing treatment for women seeking help on abortions. Its good to read about the cancellation of prosecutions. I think the woman who was the 15 year old girl had a case in the courts recently on the ban.

robindch

Ding!

"Abortion: NI politicians' bid to halt law changes fails"

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-50115449

aloyisious

Just for historical research on the closure of the NI assembly [collapse of devolved govt] in 17 Jan 2017 and sittings from the election on 02 March 2017, I looked for sittings of it and found none despite talks between the parties over the two disputed points [language and fuel]. I noted that the number of MLA's was reduced by 18 [108 to 90] and that the Unionist majority was cut to 01.

It seems to me that despite the urgency of the abortion issue according to the DUP and others in the assembly, they were clearly unable to bring it to the floor in Stormont. They knew from July 17 this year the change was coming. Pressure on the UK Govt was there from July 2018 due to a UK Supreme Court decision on the matter and I think two votes were held [Nov 2017 & July 2018] on the issue of making changes to the law in N/I as the MLA was not doing so.

I listened to Baroness O'Loan today explaining how things had happened yesterday and I thought "what a load of unreality".

@volchitsa: Re the NI AG, my understanding of what he intended to do was wrong. He went to the assembly to tell those there that they could make changes in the chamber rules on sitting number and powers allotted them to affect the incoming Westminster legislation but the idea was blocked by the sitting speaker who informed those there that, due to house rules, he could not allow them to do anything. The speaker is Robin Newton, a DUP party member so I'd say he won't be popular in the Foster household or party HQ.

Odhinn

THE HOTTEST ticket on the island of Ireland in the wake of the legalisation of same-sex marriage and abortion in Northern Ireland is for a place in the queue to see the look on Arlene Foster’s face, WWN can reveal. With packed queues tailing back for 10 miles, Foster’s mug along with those of her DUP colleagues are for once in their political careers in high demand and a welcome sight, however, such is the demand that tickets are now rumoured to be selling for 5-figure sums.

http://waterfordwhispersnews.com/2019/10/22/ireland-queuing-to-see-the-look-on-arlene-fosters-face/?fbclid=IwAR2w0kIL7CZBOn6jCxGuhfKGmANKzPm0B87Qu22bbOAaeWDTZNotIbtktJo

Loafing Oaf

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/northern-irish-gps-face-legal-uncertainty-as-abortion-decriminalised-1.4059576

“It is the duty of citizens to hold their elected representatives accountable for the decisions they have made,” said the bishops, who particularly criticised Sinn Féin, Alliance, the SDLP and the Greens.

Kind of closing off voting options for your flock in NI there:p

Cabaal

Loafing Oaf wrote: »

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/northern-irish-gps-face-legal-uncertainty-as-abortion-decriminalised-1.4059576

Kind of closing off voting options for your flock in NI there:p

and this,...

“The unavoidable truth is that our locally elected representatives had the time and the power to prevent this draconian Westminster abortion legislation being introduced over the heads of local citizens but chose not to do so.

and if the DUP would accept the Irish Language Act I'm sure they could have a government......so we're back to blaming the DUP

aloyisious

The new non-prosecution outlook in N/I: https://www.thejournal.ie/northern-ireland-abortion-3-4863800-Oct2019/

Plus former PSNI Ombudsperson apologises for AND withdraws a claim she made a day earlier on Morning Ireland show that 90% of abortions in N/I were caused by use of the morninp-after pill following on from a fact-check of her statement: https://www.thejournal.ie/abortion/news/

Bredabe

aloyisious wrote: »

The new non-prosecution outlook in N/I: https://www.thejournal.ie/northern-ireland-abortion-3-4863800-Oct2019/

Plus former PSNI Ombudsperson apologises for AND withdraws a claim she made a day earlier on Morning Ireland show that 90% of abortions in N/I were caused by use of the morninp-after pill following on from a fact-check of her statement: https://www.thejournal.ie/abortion/news/

90% of abortions caused by MAP! sooooooooooo much I could say about this but I'll stick with :eek::eek::eek::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:.
I assume(hope) she was paid to say things like that and those aren't her working beliefs.

robindch

Some news in from Andorra which reads like Ireland in 2017:

https://www.politico.eu/article/andorras-abortion-rights-revolution/

Cabaal

robindch wrote: »

Some news in from Andorra which reads like Ireland in 2017:

https://www.politico.eu/article/andorras-abortion-rights-revolution/

It really, really does.....sort of scary

In Andorra, which is not a member of the European Union, the “right to life” is enshrined in the constitution. Abortions are illegal in all circumstances, even when the woman’s life is at risk.

volchitsa

robindch wrote: »

Some news in from Andorra which reads like Ireland in 2017:

https://www.politico.eu/article/andorras-abortion-rights-revolution/

Gosh I didn't know that. Presumably the reason nobody has died is because when the woman's health is at risk she is transferred to the next hospital along, in France or Spain.

Not that this is a good enough reason not to change the law, obviously. One day even that small delay could kill or seriously injure a woman.

robindch

And in Italy, a police investigation started in 2016 into the death of Valentina Milluzzo:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/oct/22/italy-death-miscarriage-abortion-doctors-refuse-procedure

...has ended up with the doctors concerned in court facing charges of manslaughter. The case itself seems eerily reminiscent of Savita Halappanavar's deth in 2013:

https://www.ft.com/content/5bd5e150-f994-11e9-a354-36acbbb0d9b6

Financial Times wrote:

Seven Italian doctors who refused to perform a potentially life-saving abortion are fighting accusations of manslaughter in a trial that is expected to set a precedent for Italy’s medical attitude towards the procedure.

The trial held in Catania, Sicily, focuses on the circumstances of the death, in 2016, of five-months-pregnant Valentina Milluzzo. Members of Milluzzo’s family, who gave evidence on Tuesday, said that when the 32-year-old was admitted to hospital with complications, doctors said her unborn twins would not survive but refused to terminate the pregnancies on moral grounds, which ultimately led to fatal sepsis. [...]

Igotadose

Somewhat tangential to this thread - an 'origins of the religious right in the USA' article from Politico. It wasn't abortion - it was segregation.
The quotes from the various evangelical leaders in the 60's and 70's supporting Abortion might be handy.

https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2014/05/religious-right-real-origins-107133

Loafing Oaf

Igotadose wrote: »

Somewhat tangential to this thread - an 'origins of the religious right in the USA' article from Politico. It wasn't abortion - it was segregation.
The quotes from the various evangelical leaders in the 60's and 70's supporting Abortion might be handy.

https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2014/05/religious-right-real-origins-107133

I once read that the driving force behind America's pro-life movement has always been the Catholic Church, even though the more 'colourful' activists tended to come from the more extreme Protestant sects. That article highlights the ambivalent and moderate position even fairly conservative Protestant denominations historically took on the issue.

Also, raised my eyebrows at this line

Weyrich, Falwell and leaders of the emerging religious right enlisted an unlikely ally in their quest to advance abortion as a political issue: Francis A. Schaeffer—a goateed, knickers-wearing theologian

:eek:

Certainly sounds an unlikely ally for Jerry Falwell

aloyisious

The F/T article in robidch post above was firewalled, Reading the F/T article online from another source has me stunned. The piece seems to sum up the attitude of Italian politicians overall where it come to laws they want to bring in and the fate of those the laws actually affect. The F/T stricture below stopped me from copying and pasting the article contents so I'll just say the Far Right League and the town authorities of Verona have a lot to hang their heads in shame about.

Please use the sharing tools found via the share button at the top or side of articles. Copying articles to share with others is a breach of FT.com T&Cs and Copyright Policy. Email licensing@ft.com to buy additional rights. Subscribers may share up to 10 or 20 articles per month using the gift article service. More information can be found at https://www.ft.com/tour.
https://www.ft.com/content/5bd5e150-f994-11e9-a354-36acbbb0d9b6

robindch

The New Yorker - free on the web - took a longread look at the activities of the anti-abortion movement. It does not paint a pretty picture of the activities of God's chosen people.

The article comes with <Click here to Listen> goodness.

https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2019/11/18/the-new-front-line-of-the-anti-abortion-movement

robindch

Paywalled - according to the Times of London, the Vatican press office has referred, via surface mail, questions regarding the church’s ownership of the new maternity hospital site directly to Pope Francis.

I'm sure this will go down well with everybody.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/pope-francis-to-oversee-ruling-on-nuns-transferral-of-national-maternity-hospital-lzssxjnq0

antiskeptic

robindch wrote: »

The New Yorker - free on the web - took a longread look at the activities of the anti-abortion movement. It does not paint a pretty picture of the activities of God's chosen people.

The article comes with <Click here to Listen> goodness.

https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2019/11/18/the-new-front-line-of-the-anti-abortion-movement

Assuming, for a moment, that abortion is considered murder by the protagonists which particular activity would you describe as not pretty?

Like, given a snipers rifle and a clear view of Hitler, would you?