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Brexit discussion thread XI (Please read OP before posting)

Quin_Dub

This is the eleventh incarnation of our Brexit discussion thread,

Same warnings etc still apply:

As we are approaching the critical end of March October 2019 period, please bear the following in mind before posting:
Insults directed at popular figures are not acceptable in this forum
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Strazdas

Letwin_Larry wrote: »

i lived with them in the 80s. Essex. got to know him quite well. nice guy, but loves to hate outsiders, blacks, Irish, Muslims. West Ham supporter. like i said he ended up marrying an irishgirl from co. Mayo.
been rattling on about leaving the EU for ages now. reckons they are subsidising the rest of us.
both his kids have very good City jobs in finance, and see this as a real threat to their careers.
i'm due to go over there for Halloween, but am having 2nd thoughts, as i usually speak my mind after a few scoops.

This is a recurring theme with Leave voters : convinced the UK is pumping in billions and billions and getting virtually nothing in return (probably comes from all the nonsense they read in the tabloids).

Letwin_Larry

Strazdas wrote: »

This is a recurring theme with Leave voters : convinced the UK is pumping in billions and billions and getting virtually nothing in return (probably comes from all the nonsense they read in the tabloids).

he is vehemently opposed to the eastern european states, reckons they are just spongers and the EU will collapse once the UK leaves.

of course he is blind or chooses to be, to the positive part immigrants play in British life/economy.

Padre_Pio

Letwin_Larry wrote: »

he is vehemently opposed to the eastern european states, reckons they are just spongers and the EU will collapse once the UK leaves.

of course he is blind or chooses to be, to the positive part immigrants play in British life/economy.

There's no better benefit to an economy than to have someone fully educated land on your shores and look for a job.

Think of the cash the govt spends on every child from 0 - end of university, through subsidised creche, free education, childrens allowance, medical card, GP care, free university fees, grants etc. Tens of thousands, easily.

tuxy

Letwin_Larry wrote: »

he is vehemently opposed to the eastern european states, reckons they are just spongers and the EU will collapse once the UK leaves.

of course he is blind or chooses to be, to the positive part immigrants play in British life/economy.

So short sighted, if you looked at it a few years ago it would look like Ireland was sponging off the EU but thanks to past financial help we are now a net contributor. Also these contributions are tiny compared to gains made from trading in the single market.
The problems is these areas have been abandoned by the UK not the EU, they are angry and need something to vent at.

Navanboyo

Joe_ Public wrote: »

I'm no legal eagle but fwiw, i think you're spot on. There is a clause warning him against trying to frustrate the bill so at a minimum he is guilty of breaching the spirit of the law. Very likely this will go to court. Now maybe that is what he actually wants to happen but they need to pursue it i think otherwise you are simply permitting people in power to misbehave without consequence.

Thank You

Shelga

liamtech wrote: »

Is there not a real clear and present danger of Loyalist violence in the north because of this deal? Assuming it gets through which - i wont even call

Who are the loyalists going to direct their anger at? Most of the ones who caused this are sitting pretty on the mainland, apart from their beloved DUP who have just landed back in Belfast tonight. Anyway, most of the leave vote in NI was from unionists, so they only have themselves to blame.

Letwin_Larry wrote: »

i just got off the phone with my sis who has been in London since the 1970s. her husband is a cockney (Essex really) LEAVER. dislikes us Paddies (even though he's married to one???!!)
her kids work in the City and are REMAINERS.
she was close to tears. said the family is torn apart. arguments every night.
not a pretty picture.

I was really good friends with a guy in his 50s who acted like a mentor to me in my first job when I moved over to England. I have lost so much respect for him. Not because he voted leave, but because of his ugly and arrogant attitude to it all. "**** Northern Ireland" etc.

I don't think he fully gets how far he has fallen in my estimation. I try to not talk about it too much with him, the conversation always just turns ugly and I don't need that energy in my life anymore. Part of it is him trying to wind me up, but life is too short to listen to that crap, and I have moved on with my life. It is sad though, considering what a friend he used to be to me.

Another friend in his early 30s also voted leave but regrets it now. The two of them are like chalk and cheese.

Also listening to late night LBC for the first time. Man, the real crazies come out after dark. I thought James O'Brien had it bad with the rubbish he has to listen to. At least this presenter is being even more blunt than JOB in his responses to them!

Letwin_Larry

can i just say this though in relation to a 2nd ref.

can you imagine yourself having just voted for/against a certain referendum, election whatever, then to have some well intention-ed person tap you on the shoulder and tell you that you were misled, misinformed or just ignorant, and to try again.

in fairness how would you feel?

personally i think i would explode. all logic would be lost. emotion would take over.

Shelga

Letwin_Larry wrote: »

can i just say this though in relation to a 2nd ref.

can you imagine yourself having just voted for/against a certain referendum, election whatever, then to have some well intention-ed person tap you on the shoulder and tell you that you were misled, misinformed or just ignorant, and to try again.

in fairness how would you feel?

personally i think i would explode. all logic would be lost. emotion would take over.

I like to think that I would direct my anger at how colossally stupid and vague the question on the original ballot paper was, and not at the people who are daring to question the soundness of allowing the Tory party to treat it as a blank cheque.

I’m genuinely surprised that there aren’t more Leavers who recognise and acknowledge how incredibly complicated and difficult the whole thing is, and that there was no clear destination.

[Deleted User]

Letwin_Larry wrote: »

can i just say this though in relation to a 2nd ref.

can you imagine yourself having just voted for/against a certain referendum, election whatever, then to have some well intention-ed person tap you on the shoulder and tell you that you were misled, misinformed or just ignorant, and to try again.

in fairness how would you feel?

personally i think i would explode. all logic would be lost. emotion would take over.

Yeah, unless the plan has changed or circumstances are now different, I would be very annoyed about having to re-vote for something I had already voted for and the result was not the "desired" one.
OTOH, if the result was against what I wanted, then I would welcome a second chance and hope enough will change to get the preferred result.
After all, it has happened here twice!

[Deleted User]

Shelga wrote: »

I like to think that I would direct my anger at how colossally stupid and vague the question on the original ballot paper was, and not at the people who are daring to question the soundness of allowing the Tory party to treat it as a blank cheque.

I’m genuinely surprised that there aren’t more Leavers who recognise and acknowledge how incredibly complicated and difficult the whole thing is, and that there was no clear destination.

UK voters were asked a simple question, leave or remain (we'll sort out the details later) they voted to leave, details are now being thrashed around.
Those in either camp really didn't care about the technicalities, NI etc, they just wanted to choose either to remain or leave.

In most referendums & elections, people generally go with their gut feelings, or more often than not they choose the same party they (and their parents) have always voted for.

Tea Shock

The old chestnut about us voting on Lisbon twice.
It wasn’t the same treaty the second time.
They gave concessions to make it pass the second time
Farage et al always forget to mention that though

[Deleted User]

Tea Shock wrote: »

The old chestnut about us voting on Lisbon twice.
It wasn’t the same treaty the second time.
They gave concessions to make it pass the second time
Farage et al always forget to mention that though

I assume that you did not read the whole of my post.

briany

A second referendum need not be framed as voting the 'right' way. It should say that the British political class has failed to deliver Brexit, so it is up to the British people to break the deadlock. Power to the people, in other words. And so long as there is at least one Leave option on the ballot, then it doesn't contravene the 2016 referendum. If the people voted for Remain then they couldn't really blame anyone but themselves.

MPFGLB

On that topic Stephanie Bolzen who is a german reporter based in London, who i find very good, was on sky yesterday saying she didnt think it would be plain sailing for the scots to get eu membership in the event of independence. Not sure of why, but was intetested to hear her opinion all the same.

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

I just cant see the EU ignoring its former family members on a life raft that has escaped the sinking HMS Brittannia.

The EU will not welcome Scotland with open arms because of separatist movements in Europe most notably the Catalans and the Basque (France/Spain)
Also Croatia

These countries do not want to support any separatism and will mostly likely veto Scotland of independently joining the EU

liamtech

Shelga wrote: »

Who are the loyalists going to direct their anger at? Most of the ones who caused this are sitting pretty on the mainland, apart from their beloved DUP who have just landed back in Belfast tonight. Anyway, most of the leave vote in NI was from unionists, so they only have themselves to blame.

I was really good friends with a guy in his 50s who acted like a mentor to me in my first job when I moved over to England. I have lost so much respect for him. Not because he voted leave, but because of his ugly and arrogant attitude to it all. "**** Northern Ireland" etc.

I don't think he fully gets how far he has fallen in my estimation. I try to not talk about it too much with him, the conversation always just turns ugly and I don't need that energy in my life anymore. Part of it is him trying to wind me up, but life is too short to listen to that crap, and I have moved on with my life. It is sad though, considering what a friend he used to be to me.

Another friend in his early 30s also voted leave but regrets it now. The two of them are like chalk and cheese.

Also listening to late night LBC for the first time. Man, the real crazies come out after dark. I thought James O'Brien had it bad with the rubbish he has to listen to. At least this presenter is being even more blunt than JOB in his responses to them!

They will vent on the nearest and most obvious adversary that exists in Northern ireland - Nationalists/remainers - as they always have done

the problem, is that said group will respond

My point is that just as a hard border is unacceptable to Ireland and the nationalists - what is being proposed is equally unacceptable to the Unionists - and i cant see a way to square that circle - well, tell a lie.. i can - cancel the whole damn thing and forget brexit

It is not my intent to cause an argument - im a lefty and a remainer although as an irish citizen i wouldnt have a vote - a remainer at heart as Tusk said

But i think this thread sometimes glosses over the real fact that loyalism/militant-unionism has not gone away, and could very well attack nationalism/remain communities, which will be responded too

this is all very unnerving

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sK5S3GQ5MXA

MPFGLB

Well I am hopimg as I write BoJo is heading to a ditch somewhere

There is no point in any extension unless something changes

An election or a referendum...the impasse is too great otherwise

To get a GE Labour has to be assured that the Brexit no deal doesn't happen before the GE is sorted. So need the extension to be at least 4 months imo

However there is a distinct possibility the a GE could give much the same HoE divide

A Peoples Referendum is the only way forward imo

A question between BoJo deal or Remaining

Its the only solution

FrancieBrady

MPFGLB wrote: »

The EU will not welcome Scotland with open arms because of separatist movements in Europe most notably the Catalans and the Basque (France/Spain)
Also Croatia

These countries do not want to support any separatism and will mostly likely veto Scotland of independently joining the EU

Spain has said it would have no jusifiable legal objection to Scotland joining the .
EU
Their reasoning is that Scotland's independence will be gained constitutionally, Catalonia attempt is according to Spain, unconstitutional and illegal.
Rahoy outlined this a long time ago.

Enzokk

fr336 wrote: »

Sky News saying that one amendment put in front of house this week could be for a permanent customs union for all of UK. Which the DUP could back. And Boris would be screwed.

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Basically back to the May deal. Also NI would still be in the single market while GB wouldn't be

You would expect the ERG to vote against a deal that has a permanent customs union attached to it and possibly Johnson to go against it as well. That would be some spectacle, Johnson voting against his own deal.

CarPark2 wrote: »

That was valid while the UK were a member state. They could have blocked an independent Scotland from joining (and would have been strongly supported by Spain). I don’t know if it would still stand after Brexit it would suit the EU for Brexit to be a disaster, so they might welcome Scotland joining as an expression of that disastrous outcome.

Has the UK left the EU? I must have missed that. The noises for Scotland joining the EU has been a lot more encouraging lately while the UK is still a member. There should be no objections to Scottish EU membership if the EU lives up to its principles.

gimli2112

I see one of the DM's lead stories is the abuse JRM got while walking his 12 year old son out of parliament, I feel bad for the child, not least because he's dressed up as a min-JRM. No idea what the father was thinking putting the kid into that situation, at best it's a serious lapse in judgement,

careless sherpa

Strazdas wrote: »

This is the real legacy of Cameron's referendum. He failed to anticipate just how deeply divisive and polarising it would.

It is an ironic end to the united kingdom. An empire that was built and maintained by creating division and sowing seeds of conflict that have lasted well beyond British rule.

robinph

gimli2112 wrote: »

I see one of the DM's lead stories is the abuse JRM got while walking his 12 year old son out of parliament, I feel bad for the child, not least because he's dressed up as a min-JRM. No idea what the father was thinking putting the kid into that situation, at best it's a serious lapse in judgement,

He did it because he knew he'd get shouted at and be able to create a few headlines about the nasty remainers shouting at him whilst his kid was around. He was using the kid as a human shield.

maynooth_rules

gimli2112 wrote: »

I see one of the DM's lead stories is the abuse JRM got while walking his 12 year old son out of parliament, I feel bad for the child, not least because he's dressed up as a min-JRM. No idea what the father was thinking putting the kid into that situation, at best it's a serious lapse in judgement,

It was purposely done by JRM to get headlines like that.

listermint

Letwin_Larry wrote: »

can i just say this though in relation to a 2nd ref.

can you imagine yourself having just voted for/against a certain referendum, election whatever, then to have some well intention-ed person tap you on the shoulder and tell you that you were misled, misinformed or just ignorant, and to try again.

in fairness how would you feel?

personally i think i would explode. all logic would be lost. emotion would take over.

I'd feel grand.

Because ive voted on second referendums here. Where we were more informed second time round and got concessions.

Only an idiot would explode. Because they were an idiot to begin with

Joe_ Public

gimli2112 wrote: »

I see one of the DM's lead stories is the abuse JRM got while walking his 12 year old son out of parliament, I feel bad for the child, not least because he's dressed up as a min-JRM. No idea what the father was thinking putting the kid into that situation, at best it's a serious lapse in judgement,

I saw the 2 page spread on the news and what i noticed is they had pics of JRM and other tories (leadsom i think) but nothing about Diane Abbott who got by far the worst abuse. I dont condone what happened but can you imagine if Abbott or other remain mps had walked through a leave protest? As if they'd dare!

woohoo!!!

Just like May, the EU will give Johnson cover. Particularly cos he has delivered a deal which has an actual chance of passing. The EU want the UK gone. They've seen both Brexiteers and Remainers playing games in HoC, and the EU really want nothing more to do with that vipers nest.

As more mass loyalist protests, 20 folks waving flegs outside a chipper isn't something of concern. The days of a loyalist created apocalypse, grinding NI to a halt and instigating pogroms against catholics are long gone. They've now insulted their last ally, right wing Tories, although they still have their sycophant supporters in the indo I'm sure.

gimli2112

BBC giving JRM some cover. "It being a weekend and so childcare issues not unreasonable to take your children........."
I guess, trying to allege as school was out there was no-one to look after the children.

Jizique

woohoo!!! wrote: »

Just like May, the EU will give Johnson cover. Particularly cos he has delivered a deal which has an actual chance of passing. The EU want the UK gone. They've seen both Brexiteers and Remainers playing games in HoC, and the EU really want nothing more to do with that vipers nest.

As more mass loyalist protests, 20 folks waving flegs outside a chipper isn't something of concern. The days of a loyalist created apocalypse, grinding NI to a halt and instigating pogroms against catholics are long gone. They've now insulted their last ally, right wing Tories, although they still have their sycophant supporters in the indo I'm sure.

Sammy wants Boris to get a decent majority and go back to negotiate again

A Dub in Glasgo

gimli2112 wrote: »

BBC giving JRM some cover. "It being a weekend and so childcare issues not unreasonable to take your children........."
I guess, trying to allege as school was out there was no-one to look after the children.

Of course, that is rubbish and the BBC should not be pandering to it. The schools break in England for the mid term break next week, I presume he is now bringing in his 'mini me' in the HoC everyday next week?

It has been known for weeks that yesterday would be a quite divisive day, Mogg has decided to have his son become part of it

Enzokk

gimli2112 wrote: »

BBC giving JRM some cover. "It being a weekend and so childcare issues not unreasonable to take your children........."
I guess, trying to allege as school was out there was no-one to look after the children.

The BBC is a disgrace, he had a nanny for himself and he has one for his kids (same one I believe). He cynically used a point of order to state they would be bringing the deal back for a vote on Monday instead of a business motion so he couldn't be questioned and he cynically used his child as cover as he knew emotions would be high today.

Then again with a political editor like Kuennsberg is it any wonder their coverage is favourable to the Tories?

FrancieBrady

Enzokk wrote: »

The BBC is a disgrace, he had a nanny for himself and he has one for his kids (same one I believe). He cynically used a point of order to state they would be bringing the deal back for a vote on Monday instead of a business motion so he couldn't be questioned and he cynically used his child as cover as he knew emotions would be high today.

Then again with a political editor like Kuennsberg is it any wonder their coverage is favourable to the Tories?

It doesn't matter, none of them should be under threat leaving their place of work.

He may have wanted his son to witness events in Parliament...fairly momentous stuff going on, after all.

I have no time for Mogg, less time for that sort of abusive protest.
Protest should not be abusive.