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Brexit discussion thread XI (Please read OP before posting)

Quin_Dub

This is the eleventh incarnation of our Brexit discussion thread,

Same warnings etc still apply:

As we are approaching the critical end of March October 2019 period, please bear the following in mind before posting:
Insults directed at popular figures are not acceptable in this forum
Please do not post memes, videos or comedy links here
Please do not be uncivil to other posters
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devnull

briany wrote: »

Johnson seriously treading a grey area right now.

The Supreme court generally takes dim views of people who try and play stupid games to get around the law.

He might find that out soon.

Water John

Letter sent. also sent a second political letter. Johnson blinks, again.

robinph

He's sent a letter, but didn't sign it. Then sent another letter disagreeing with the first.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-50112924

That doesn't sound like compling with the law to me, but if the EU treats it as if he signed it then I guess he's off the hook.

Enzokk

If it is true he only sent a photocopy and didn't sign the letter he was supposed to then it is off to court on Monday.

Edit: Would be some kind of karma if the EU treats the photocopy as legitimate and he gets rebuked by the courts as well. He would then have sent the letter according to the EU and get in legal trouble. Kind of like the DUP screwing him and voting for a second referendum after he reversed that bus over them multiple times.

Letwin_Larry

devnull wrote: »

The Supreme court generally takes dim views of people who try and play stupid games to get around the law.

He might find that out soon.

could he become the first PM to end up with a criminal record?

briany

I think what Boris is trying to do here is complying with the law by sending the letter but giving it as little legal standing as possible, and then sending another letter disagreeing, which he probably did sign.

RickBlaine

Not signing the letter is so immature. OK, he might disagree with it but he is legally required by law to abide by the wishes of parliament on this matter. He is behaving like a petulant child.

ArmaniJeanss

There are posters here who think the EU are so fed up at this stage that they just want the UK gone as soon as possible, and want this ended one way or the other by the end of the month.

There are posters here who think that the EU still wants the UK to stay, and are happy to keep this going indefinitely in the hope that circumstances eventually change and a revoke/revote happens.

I guess we'll know which holds sway depending on how quickly they respond to the extension request, and what the response is.

Enzokk

Off to court early Monday morning it seems if this is correct,

https://twitter.com/ShippersUnbound/status/1185661892557201408?s=20

I believe that there is some legal principle where he would not frustrate what the legislation is supposed to achieve and what he has done is exactly that. I am sure others (GM228?) would be able to clarify better than this layman lawyers.

RickBlaine

I think it is always good to refer to David Allen Green on such matters ...

https://twitter.com/davidallengreen/status/1185666023418220545

liamtech

Enzokk wrote: »

Off to court early Monday morning it seems if this is correct,

https://twitter.com/ShippersUnbound/status/1185661892557201408?s=20

I believe that there is some legal principle where he would not frustrate what the legislation is supposed to achieve and what he has done is exactly that. I am sure others (GM228?) would be able to clarify better than this layman lawyers.

shocking stuff - i do suspect he will be in court over this - he is not behaving within the bounds of what is expected within the law

Guy:Incognito

robinph wrote: »

He's sent a letter, but didn't sign it. Then sent another letter disagreeing with the first..

Between that ridiculousness and Trumps letter writing over the last couple of weeks, neither should be trusted with a pen. Theyre like kids. Petulant kids.

briany

Bad news for Boris is that the UK parliament is the country's supreme legislative instrument. The EU could rightly say it holds the opinion of the UK parliament higher than that of Johnson, if the EU wants to get a dig in.

Water John

I was wondering, as I've often seen legal letters without a signature.

RickBlaine

My guess is that the letter is valid without a signature because it was sent and received via official channels.

NotToScale

I've a feeling the EU will be unable to respond as who can write that letter is ultimately a constitutional question that could only be answered by the Supreme Court of the UK.

It's not up to the EU to decide who represents the UK to the EU. That's a matter for the UK.

It's actually making the UK look like a failed state without a working government and a clown at the helm.

Joe_ Public

Letwin_Larry wrote: »

so this was their ingenious ruse to circumvent the Benn Act?
mother of God ..............

Yeah...and there was me today speculating as what fiendish plot they were hatching. Memo to self to stop crediting johnson or cummimgs with any political savvy whatsoever! Speaking of the "evil genius" maybe its just me or is he keeping a low profile of late?

liamtech

NotToScale wrote: »

I've a feeling the EU will be unable to respond as who can write that letter is ultimately a constitutional question that could only be answered by the Supreme Court of the UK.

It's not up to the EU to decide who represents the UK to the EU. That's a matter for the UK.

It's actually making the UK look like a failed state without a working government and a clown at the helm.

I think the EU will ask for clarification, and look to see the decision of the courts - the courts being almost a certainty at this stage

devnull

Probably his tactic will be that he never asked for an extension, he just sent a letter he was forced to that won't count so therefore it won't be valid if offered.

ancapailldorcha

Ok, I've cleared up a few off topic and below standard posts. Please bear the charter in mind when posting. Many thanks.

Enzokk

Joe_ Public wrote: »

Yeah...and there was me today speculating as what fiendish plot they were hatching. Memo to self to stop crediting johnson or cummimgs with any political savvy whatsoever! Speaking of the "evil genius" maybe its just me or is he keeping a low profile of late?

The problem seems to be their plots keep getting leaked and Andrea Leadsom was talking about sending multiple letters as well on TV. If they managed to keep their plans secret it would have more of an effect as well you suspect.

BorneTobyWilde

EU will grant the extension, no reason not to. General Election is way forward, and I expect the Brexit Party will steal a lot of seats from the Conservatives, while the remain parties will clean up. Lib Dem and Labour to rule.

Donnielighto

Could the EU send invitations to each of the parliments in the UK welcoming them and offering EU membership. Not gloating at all but just be genuine and say that we'd be happy to see them continue as European citizens. No badness, maliciousness or windup.

prunudo

RickBlaine wrote: »

Not signing the letter is so immature. OK, he might disagree with it but he is legally required by law to abide by the wishes of parliament on this matter. He is behaving like a petulant child.

This is it in a nutshell. You can be sure the genius and master tactician Mr. Cummings came up with this amazing idea. Explains the smugness from Gove, Raab and Barclay etc over the last few weeks.

liamtech

Sky News apparently has a copy of the second letter requesting that, in effect, the first mandatory BENN letter should be ignored - urging the EU not to grant an extension

I cant find this letter anywhere does anyone have a link?

shocking stuff - having a scoop but set into this now- long night to see what happens - Tusk has GOTTA RESPOND dont we think??

- i have faith that Tusk will have something to say on this latest ridiculous stunt

Joe_ Public

Enzokk wrote: »

The problem seems to be their plots keep getting leaked and Andrea Leadsom was talking about sending multiple letters as well on TV. If they managed to keep their plans secret it would have more of an effect as well you suspect.

Not half as bad as John Baron in the chamber during the week! The idea of multiple letters has been floated for a while though, hasnt it? Just feels a bit obvious and, while im no expert, i cant see it getting them very far.

Tea Shock

I reckon the sending of multiple letters was not the big master plan to circumvent the Benn Act

I reckon the passing of the deal without the accompanying legislation was the master plan....and the Letwin amendment sniffed them out.

Water John

The idea of forcing a Ref on this now comes up. It only lost by 12 votes when it was put before. Now the DUP may support it. If they put a bit of thought into it, they would feel better with all the UK staying in the EU as opposed to checks in the Irish Sea.

Joe_ Public

Donnielighto wrote: »

Could the EU send invitations to each of the parliments in the UK welcoming them and offering EU membership. Not gloating at all but just be genuine and say that we'd be happy to see them continue as European citizens. No badness, maliciousness or windup.

On that topic Stephanie Bolzen who is a german reporter based in London, who i find very good, was on sky yesterday saying she didnt think it would be plain sailing for the scots to get eu membership in the event of independence. Not sure of why, but was intetested to hear her opinion all the same.

reslfj

Sam Russell wrote: »

...
As a consequence of her 'leadership', Britain no longer mines coal, all car manufacturing is owned by foreign companies, all manufacturing in Britain is now a minor actor in the GDP, Britain is a major home for 'funny money', etc. etc.

Coal mining was dying long before MT became PM. It simply isn't any longer economical to invest in and produce electricity using coal.
The UK underground mining was even less economical when surface mined coal and inexpensive transport of coal by ship became available.
Natural gas from the North Sea didn't help either.

To a degree MT helped the more efficient mines to operate for a longer period after -like it or not - the 'keep the highest number of jobs for any price' union policy was thrown out by MT.

Deep down the productivity of all production facilities in a country is behind the long term success and size of the country's wealth.

The UK car industry is an example where not only the productivity but also the design, engineering and quality of cars from UK owned companies were way below continental cars and Japanese cars.

If you are not forever striving to be in top, you are bound to lose - and this is just how it should be.
For the auto industry this is very much why Germany and Japan is winning while the UK and the US is losing.

The speculative - even grey - money in London is what hit UK banking much harder than many others in 2008/09. It was the background for some needed austerity in the 2009-2011/12 time frame. But - IMHO - not for its stupid continuation to allow lower taxes and religiously believe in trickle down economy.

Lars