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"Technological Universities" - window dressing?

veryangryman

This rebranding of the I.T's seems a bit desperate and likely a huge waste of money. Alot of wishy washy language about strategic this and momentum that.

I guess the same when they became I.Ts from RTCs.

Are you fed up with new buzzwords which effectively becomes the same aul same aul? Agile/Lean I'm looking at you!:eek:

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Geuze

GarIT wrote: »

I disagree, I have colleagues that did some form of programming at ITs. They wouldn't be creating artificial intelligence but they have built up their skills and are making decent money doing the work that's not so mathematically focused.

Almost all of the admin people I work with have business degrees, many from ITs. They aren't running the place, but it has given them a good basis from doing their work. There is a middle ground between being highly accademically focused and doing a trade.

We need ITs

We do, and we need IoTs to be proud to be IoTs.

We need them to produce world-class, skilled, cutting edge technicians / workers in all sorts of areas.

Trades
Banking / insurance / finance
Engineering
Science

They should stick to their original mission, and be world-class at it.

They should not be teaching literature / humanities / sociology / politics, etc.

Outkast_IRE

Margot Miniature Slugger wrote: »

Because in order to create "degree courses" for sub-300-points students, and especially sub-200-points students, you have to resort to all manner of shenanigans — Mickey Mouse courses, rampant grade inflation, etc. — to keep up the pretense to students, employers, and the taypaying public that something of value is being created with the enterprise of trying to send academically challenged students down an academic path.

If a student can't get over 200 points in the Leaving Cert, what exactly is wrong with saying that that student shouldn't be going along an academic career path that most likely will be a complete waste of time and money?

Instead, create viable career tracks for those who are not academically oriented, have a smaller cohort of students going to university and pursuing degrees, and make sure that the degrees that are granted are not eroded by grade inflation.

I dont think your view on this is fair or balanced. The leaving cert is not a good indication of ones academic prowess or intelligence. Its a learning by rote system that will suit some and not suit others. I understand we need some form of system and thats ok but dont put too much stock in the leaving certificate. Some students are simply not mature enough, have had terrible teachers or have not been taught how to study in secondary school, or unfortunately had difficult home lifes which impact their ability to perform.

You would do well to remember that many college courses are externally audited, my course for example had Engineers Ireland in auditing every 2 years and students were interviewed and quized on exams they had taken, the difficulty of the course content etc. The course was held to the same standard irregardless or it being a IT or a Uni. So grade inflation and mickey mouse courses wouldnt be tolerated or accepted.

I think the 2nd half of your post ties in very much with my own thinking but i may be a bit more extreme. I would completely ban the publishing of stats on how many students secondary schools feed to third level , that stat is not a metric of success. In fact i would say a school that has fed 100% students to third level has badly failed a few of those students.

Secondly we need to shake up Solas, and make it fit for purpose introduce more apprenticeship types , promote them better and ensure that every type of apprenticeship has a route to follow on to further specialist training, or degrees.

I mentioned it in a previous post but the apprenticeship system in Germany is a thing of beauty, with routes for all from apprenticeship to 3rd level and beyond.

Geuze

Outkast_IRE wrote: »

This is just another topical item that the average joe is more than happy to wade into with fairly baseless opinions. The lipstick on a pig analogy on pg1 was poorly made with regards to some of the ITs looking to gain technological university status.

1. consider the reasons they are doing it , when push comes to shove it will always be because of ……….. Funding. Outside of Dublin , ITs have been starved of capital investment for over 10 years now. They see this new status as coming with a higher level of funding , of course they are going to chase it.

2. The ITs that have decided to go for this status have been making massive strides to push their staff to the next level, many of them have undertaken Masters & PHDs. The bar for new entrants now to lecture is generally raised to masters level but exceptions are made. They have also pushed for research to take a key role and expect lecturers to be publishing papers and research.

The phrase "starved of investment" is used too much.

A ten min walk around IT Sligo will show you lots of modern buildings.

AFAIK, you need a Masters to be a lecturer in IoT, and this was the case 15 years ago.

Geuze

Outkast_IRE wrote: »

Th They have also pushed for research to take a key role and expect lecturers to be publishing papers and research.

Yes, this is so as to make a successful application for TU status.

But is this any help to the students?

Not really.

Geuze

Outkast_IRE wrote: »

I mentioned it in a previous post but the apprenticeship system in Germany is a thing of beauty, with routes for all from apprenticeship to 3rd level and beyond.

Yes, Germany has far fewer in uni, yet he has much lower youth unemployment.

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Outkast_IRE

Geuze wrote: »

That is not a correct comparison.

An IoT here should be compared with a community college in the USA.

That is not a valid comparison at all . A community college in the USA generally only goes as high as an undergraduate degree.

The ITs in Ireland can go to masters and phds . If you think these are Mickey Mouse masters or phds in science, engineering etc then clearly you have never had much contact with them. If you are doing a masters or phd you will be publishing material for peer review, and be held to a very high standard be it IT or Uni.

Not all ITs are equal either , for example UCC and CIT do joint degrees in Architecture and Biomedical Science and these are highly respected courses internationally.

Outkast_IRE

Geuze wrote: »

The phrase "starved of investment" is used too much.

A ten min walk around IT Sligo will show you lots of modern buildings.

AFAIK, you need a Masters to be a lecturer in IoT, and this was the case 15 years ago.

I am in contact with many ITs regularily, know many of the lecturers a masters was not a strict requirement. I know people lecturing in Universities without a masters.

They are allowed and asked to because they are excellent in their field.

IT Sligo is one , there are plenty of others around the country where the only new buildings are research hubs funded through the likes of enterprise ireland or similar . The rest of the campus buildings are 30-40 years old in some cases the old RTCs and have not had a major refurbishment since.

Outkast_IRE

Geuze wrote: »

Yes, this is so as to make a successful application for TU status.

But is this any help to the students?

Not really.

I would say for students to have contact with lecturers that are capable of carrying out meaningful research and publishing in peer reviewed journals etc. is beneficial to the students as it shows them what is possible and that their institution is contributing at a global level.

freshpopcorn

I actually heard of a shop getting a window dresser before to do their Christmas window.
She was very expensive!

nkl12xtw5goz70

Outkast_IRE wrote: »

The leaving cert is not a good indication of ones academic prowess or intelligence. Its a learning by rote system that will suit some and not suit others.

While I certainly would acknowledge that the Leaving Cert has many flaws, CAO points are still a reasonable proxy for academic prowess. In general, one will find distinct differences between a 200-point student and a 500-point student in terms of their respective academic capability and preparedness for third-level study. This is bolstered by analyses of dropout statistics, which predictably find that the students who enter universities or ITs with the lowest CAO points are also the most likely to drop out, and vice versa.

So grade inflation and mickey mouse courses wouldnt be tolerated or accepted.

You genuinely believe that there are no Mickey Mouse courses in ITs? Or that there has been no grade inflation?

I mentioned it in a previous post but the apprenticeship system in Germany is a thing of beauty, with routes for all from apprenticeship to 3rd level and beyond.

Unfortunately, in a bid to woo American multinationals, the Irish government has pursued a one-size-fits-all strategy in an effort to equip every Tom, Dick, and Harry with a degree. There are all kinds of problems with this, and I don't think it serves the students or the country well (and the multinationals aren't fooled either) but that is the path we've gone down. I definitely agree with you that it could do with rethinking.

The Rape of Lucretia

veryangryman wrote: »

This rebranding of the I.T's seems a bit desperate and likely a huge waste of money.

Nobody buys it anyway. We all know there are only three universities worthy of the name : Oxford, Cambridge, Hull.

Outkast_IRE

Margot Miniature Slugger wrote: »

You genuinely believe that there are no Mickey Mouse courses in ITs? Or that there has been no grade inflation?
.

I think areas like engineering and science are less prone to it because they are held to standards by independent bodies such as engineers ireland and they are pretty decent at auditing courses, and you must reapply for them to be recognised every few years. They have withheld certification from some courses if they did not feel the content being taught was at the appropriate level.

However business, arts and social sciences i would have my suspicions about some of the courses. I am sure most people would agree that there is an agrument to be made that these courses shouldnt be under the remit of the ITs anyway.

nkl12xtw5goz70

That's a reasonable point.

One relevant point, though, is that the housing crisis has led to many families being unable to afford to send their children to third-level in a major urban centre like Dublin, Galway, or Cork. In some cases, the nearest IT is the only affordable option. So I see some argument for a wider range of courses being taught there, but, that said, every course should be taught to a rigorous academic standard.

Montage of Feck

Geuze wrote: »

That is not a correct comparison.

An IoT here should be compared with a community college in the USA.

I wasn't directly comparing the two. More disparaging the purely cosmetic vain name change.

Marcusm

o1s1n wrote: »

Bit of a difference in being able to say your degree came from an 'I.T' and an institution with university status.

If I were a student, I know which I would rather.

So you’d attribute little value to an MIT degree because it is not called a university?

mikhail

Marcusm wrote: »

So you’d attribute little value to an MIT degree because it is not called a university?

MIT is not an IT in the sense in which it is used in this country. I'd be very surprised to see someone with a trunk in his car in here, since elephant poaching is frowned upon. MIT is a university. Galway/Mayo IT is not.

mikhail

Geuze wrote: »

+100%

There are two many students at university.

People with 300 points are not able for uni, and shouldn't be allowed in.

Are we doing them any favour letting them do Arts with 300 points, and getting 45% in their degree?

This costs the taxpayer and them maybe €40,000.

Is that the wisest use of the 40k, when the country is crying out for skilled tradespeople?

I have a brother who had a frankly disasterous leaving, but pulled himself together, finished top of his class in a good course in an IT, and now has a very successful professional career. It is tough to say that no-one under a cutoff deserves a second chance.

I broadly agree with you though, that we undervalue vocational training in this country. I'm not sure why anyone is doing a BA in Culinary Arts at Dundalk (165 points this year) instead of training as a chef. Not to discount the course entirely - they seem to useful things around hygeine, nutrition, management, etc. but those are the kinds of things I'd expect chefs to get certified in from 1-day professional training courses and the like. The DoE paying Dundalk IT €20k+ to send each student there for 3 years doesn't seem like the most efficient use of money, and you have to imagine a lot of the folks getting in with under 200 points don't really enjoy a classroom setting and many would be happier serving their time in a kitchen.

Raconteuse

This is not America (shalalalalaa) or the UK - not a hoot is given whether your business degree is from UCC or CIT. And ITs have more of a hard work ethos. They're a lot stricter about attendance.

Geuze wrote: »

That is not a correct comparison.

An IoT here should be compared with a community college in the USA.

Can you get a degree at a community college?

Raconteuse

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

Nobody buys it anyway. We all know there are only three universities worthy of the name : Oxford, Cambridge, Hull.

Oxford is a complete dump.

kirving

Outkast_IRE wrote: »

I think areas like engineering and science are less prone to it because they are held to standards by independent bodies such as engineers ireland and they are pretty decent at auditing courses, and you must reapply for them to be recognised every few years. They have withheld certification from some courses if they did not feel the content being taught was at the appropriate level.

However business, arts and social sciences i would have my suspicions about some of the courses. I am sure most people would agree that there is an agrument to be made that these courses shouldnt be under the remit of the ITs anyway.

Have to agree with this 100%. I went to DIT, and did a course that was certified by Engineers Ireland. After the recession, the points for the course we're relatively low for all "engineering" type courses.

The problem for many ITs is that due to low points numbers (allowing people in who just aren't able for it) and a requirement for student numbers in second year onwards.

When the students fail, the smaller IT's are under severe pressure to keep on students who just aren't able for the course.

I have to say for DIT, under no circumstances would they lower standards of the course to allow people to pass. They were big enough to ride out a couple of years of low points and lower quality students, and were very well aware that allowing poor students would cause untold reputational damage in the long term.

Fritzbox

Geuze wrote: »

Yes, Germany has far fewer in uni, yet he has much lower youth unemployment.

Do you have anymore background information on that chart? I know Ireland has poor record when it come to offering apprenticeships and other forms of training to its workforce, but I would never have figured it was that bad - the worst in fact.
What do the other 90% do?

[Deleted User]

o1s1n wrote: »

Bit of a difference in being able to say your degree came from an 'I.T' and an institution with university status.

If I were a student, I know which I would rather.

Depends. Several people who studied 'computers' in DIT and have told me when looking for a Job in the USA, they think Dublin Institute of Technology is the Irish version of MIT.

Marcusm

mikhail wrote: »

MIT is not an IT in the sense in which it is used in this country. I'd be very surprised to see someone with a trunk in his car in here, since elephant poaching is frowned upon. MIT is a university. Galway/Mayo IT is not.

I would agree with this but I think DIT should have been retained as a name and spend the rebranding money on additional resources.

nkl12xtw5goz70

Tow wrote: »

Depends. Several people who studied 'computers' in DIT and have told me when looking for a Job in the USA, they think Dublin Institute of Technology is the Irish version of MIT.

I don't think it's an accident that the Irish government, while on a major drive to attract FDI from American multinationals, chose to rebrand the RTCs as "Institutes of Technology." To an American audience, who associate "Institute of Technology" with the likes of MIT and Cal Tech, this name change made these institutions sound more prestigious and elite than the glorified community colleges they essentially are.

Of course, they soon figured it out. Google at one point was reported to be recruiting only from universities and binning all the CVs they got from graduates of ITs.

Geuze

Fritzbox wrote: »

Do you have anymore background information on that chart? I know Ireland has poor record when it come to offering apprenticeships and other forms of training to its workforce, but I would never have figured it was that bad - the worst in fact.
What do the other 90% do?

https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/web/products-eurostat-news/-/EDN-20191014-1?inheritRedirect=true&redirect=%2Feurostat%2Fnews%2Fwhats-new

Note the chart is referring to 2nd level education.

knipex

GarIT wrote: »

Fromthe ones I've been to ITs tended to have lower quality facilities, poorer student unions, less intellectually/accademically focused. I've attended NCI and the quality of lecturers was shockingly bad compared to Maynooth. I wouldn't have even said Maynooth was great either.

1st The NCI is not an IT. In fact I would argue that many of its course offerings, particularly the "arts" type courses have no place in an IT.

2nd Personally I couldn't care less about the student union and its perceived quality. I suspect the vast majority of students do either and I struggle to see how it would impact on the quality a course.

3rd IT's are not universities, (nor in my mind should they be) they were never meant to be purely academic institutions. They provided a very different, but no less valid, type of education. (from an industry point of view actually in many cases more valid). They are \ were supposed to be more flexible, and adaptable to the needs of industry and be able to adapt their courses to suit the current and future needs of industry,

GarIT wrote: »

To phrase the question differently then, when they all have to be academically and theory focused to meet the standards of universities who will provide practical skills?

Here we are closer to agreement. Practical skills can be taught on the factory floor or via apprenticeships. its the unique blend of practical and theoretical skills that the old RTC's provided that Industry craved..

In the old days of RTC's they were primarily engineering geared institutes with IT courses and some business. It all started to change as they introduced more of the non "technology" courses and became "universities lite.."

knipex

Outkast_IRE wrote: »

I dont think your view on this is fair or balanced. The leaving cert is not a good indication of ones academic prowess or intelligence.

I agree it has little or no relevance to ones intelligence but to be fair it is a decent indicator of ones academic aptitude.

A university degree is a purely academic route.

IT's should provide an alternative route, through a mix of more practical and academic learning.. At a later stage you may decide to progress down the academic route and the training \ education gained from the IT should give you a good foundation on which to build.

All education paths do not need to be isolated and there should be (and to be fair are now far more) links between them to allow people to transfer between paths..

At the moment all apprenticeships are considered a level 6 qualification. There is no reason why some of these could not with additional academic study (either by night during the apprenticeship or after the apprenticeship) be upgraded to level 7 with a path to level 8. Once there its wide open to level 9 and up.

[Deleted User]

knipex wrote: »

I agree it has little or no relevance to ones intelligence but to be fair it is a decent indicator of ones academic aptitude.

A university degree is a purely academic route.

IT's should provide an alternative route, through a mix of more practical and academic learning.. At a later stage you may decide to progress down the academic route and the training \ education gained from the IT should give you a good foundation on which to build.

All education paths do not need to be isolated and there should be (and to be fair are now far more) links between them to allow people to transfer between paths..

At the moment all apprenticeships are considered a level 6 qualification. There is no reason why some of these could not with additional academic study (either by night during the apprenticeship or after the apprenticeship) be upgraded to level 7 with a path to level 8. Once there its wide open to level 9 and up.

The issue with that is that despite the level 6 being the qualifications for the job it will become by default leven 7 or 8, the level 6 has to be valued in and of its self first so while it should be possible to go on to any level there should be a defined brake between the level 6 and any progression.

[Deleted User]

There is another factor at play as well you can't make people do a course just because they should, for example, there is a severe shortage of chefs the job dose not seem attractive because of the weekend working yet they would neve be unemployed and lots of opportunity for traveling.

knipex

mariaalice wrote: »

The issue with that is that despite the level 6 being the qualifications for the job it will become by default level 7 or 8, the level 6 has to be valued in and of its self first so while it should be possible to go on to any level there should be a defined brake between the level 6 and any progression.

An apprenticeship is a defined qualification in its own right with strong recognition in Ireland and Internationally. Indeed I (and many others) would argue far more so than a level 7.

In 90% of applications that level 7 qualification would bring nothing additional to the role and certainly not warrant a pay premium.

The level 7 would \ should open up new career paths in the 5 to 10% of roles where it does bring something or is worth a premium and also open the option of progressing to level 8 IF desired..