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The eBike thread

unkel

A quick look seems that this doesn't really seem to fit in the cycling forum. So starting a thread here about all things eBike

I'll get the ball rolling. I have zero experience with eBikes. But I was going to build myself a battery anyway, for various reasons (like in bringing with me in my EV as a "petrol can")

I'm going to buy a solderless kit to make the battery (with 18650 cells I have removed from dead / old laptop batteries). This kit cah handle 20A max, and I would like the battery pack to produce 1kW constant. P=V*I so 1000W = 50V * 20A

This dictates that my battery needs to be nominal 48V (was thinking of making a 24V battery pack, but that won't be able to charge my car)

A quick browse on eBay and Amazon shows that you could buy a powerful 1000W bike conversion kit with everything needed except the battery for about GBP120 (a bit more from Amazon but peace of mind)

What to buy though, front wheel or rear wheel kit? Pros and cons? Any other advice?

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unkel

DaveyDave wrote: »

I'm curious if an ebike conversion would be any benefit, if it would suit my commute etc.

It sure would. If I were you I'd get 2 chargers (they're cheap) and keep one in work and one at home. That means you could do your commute at a decent speed with very little pedaling with a relatively small battery.

[Deleted User]

DaveyDave wrote: »

I don't need the range, my commute is 42km so I can charge daily if needed, I was just hoping to get 2 days out of it if I could. I can also charge in work before going home.

I've booked a trial with GreenAer, hopefully I can go for a spin on something for the day to get a feel for an ebike. I'm on a road bike so it's light but I'm a big guy so it slows me down a bit.

The mountain bike with kit will be a lot heavier and I'm wondering if it could pick up the slack on the flats while also making the hills easier. I'm curious if an ebike conversion would be any benefit, if it would suit my commute etc.

Now when I say hills, they aren't really hills. There's a few long stretches of inclines on the second half of the commute that slow me down a good bit.

Keep the battery as small and light as you need , no point carrying extra weight you rarely use.

A kit can be a lot cheaper than buying a brand new ebike, battery will cost at least 500 Euro's + though.

unkel

Deleted User wrote: »

battery will cost at least 500 Euro's + though.

Mine costs just a fraction of that

Jehu is selling 3.3kWh 48V Samsung rack mounted second hand batteries for just USD500. A steal! You'd nearly carry one of those in your back pack and cycle from Dublin to Cork on EV power :pac:

DaveyDave

Hmm, didn't think a bettery would be that expensive, Realistically would you even get a motor kit and battery for €500?

unkel

I paid €150 for my 500W 36V eBike conversion kit and €45 each for two 36V 4Ah battery packs (so 36V 8Ah in total). Allow for a €3 charger and some cables and Parcel Motel shipping, and the total was a touch over €250. This setup actually produced 930W

This was a direct drive front wheel conversion, very easy to do DIY

With a bit of pedaling and not going flat out (35km/h and I'm 100kg) you should be able to do your 21km commute on this one way. And if it is tight or you need more speed, just add one or two more of these €45 packs in parallel

I later bought another eBike (fixer upper) and sold all of the above kit for about what I paid for it, so no losses if you change your mind or if you don't like it.

[Deleted User]

DaveyDave wrote: »

Hmm, didn't think a bettery would be that expensive, Realistically would you even get a motor kit and battery for €500?

The thing is that once you get your first kit you will want better so better start off with something a bit higher quality, in my opinion.

Get a geared hub motor if going the hub motor route because it will be a lot easier to pedal without motor power.

The battery, if you want good, reliable either build it or get it from em3ev.com, why do I say em3ev ? because he has excellent reputation from the diy ebike community on endless-sphere.com.

If anyone else can recommend another source that has the same kind of reputation then please do.

Stay away from unknown unverified sources.

unkel

Deleted User wrote: »

The thing is that once you get your first kit you will want better

That was certainly true for me

Deleted User wrote: »

so better start off with something a bit higher quality

I don't agree there. For a start all parts are made in China. It's a false feeling of safety that if you paid more for a part, you get better quality. Most of the higher price items just have more margin or are bought from a middle man you have to pay. A €0.99 cable / connector including shipping from China is the exact same product as the one you buy in your local radio control / electronics shop for €7.99

And for me this is a new hobby and it would not have been half the fun had I gone in with a ready made eBike. I have learnt a good bit about eBikes in general and the way they work and particularly about batteries in the last few months.

But I guess this would not be for everyone. If you just want an eBike for your work commute and don't really want to dig in deeper, just go to a reputable bike shop, explain your requirements and buy the recommended eBike, and get some warranty / come back with it.

unkel

Inspired by Micah Toll and his rat look all wheel drive sleeper bike

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SHXQr2MPJS8

I've ordered a cheapo front wheel geared hub motor €77 including shipping from Aliexpress

Like he says, with a 52V pack (fully charged 58.8V) and a 30A controller, this setup would give me a peak 3.5kW to the two wheels combined (58.8V * 30A * 2 systems) :cool: :pac:

Will have plenty of time to think about how to use it before it eventually gets here from the far east. Probably go for the cheapest setup that Micah suggests in above vid. Dual controller, but only a single throttle

I can't see myself lacing a wheel, so I will get my local bike shop (Stagg cycles in Lucan) to do that. I believe they are very reasonable

unkel

@Mad_Lad - I'm tempted to put in an offer on this 29er:

Linky

And convert it with two geared hub motors. Would this be a significant upgrade from what I currently have*, or will have with my current bike with two geared hubs and two 30A controllers? At the moment I just cycle around locally here, roughest is the overgrown grand canal tracks, but I might be tempted to try some of the new dedicated trails near 3 Rock mountain

*Coyote Edge 650B 7 gear as sold in Halfords for around the €800-€900 mark 2-3 years ago including battery (about GBP700-800 in the UK)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y00iUS_zDq0

To me it feels like a very nice bike, but obviously I am very inexperienced when it comes to even mid price bikes

Advice welcome!

DaveyDave

I wouldn't be looking to put expensive parts on as it would only be a run around project, but I would be careful of questionable parts from some places. I'll have to look into it anyway and see what the options and cost is. Probably get the ball rolling in the new year.

Also I highly recommend Stagg Cycles, they've been looking after my bike for the last year and are no fuss and very quick. Some smaller jobs were cheaper than quoted, even swapped a tyre for free when I broke my wrist.

Joe1919

DaveyDave wrote: »

Hmm, didn't think a bettery would be that expensive, Realistically would you even get a motor kit and battery for €500?

Yose power have good value (when in stock) 350w (32kmh + )with battery thats not far off the 400 euro mark and posted from Europe.
https://www.yosepower.com/en/category/36V-65.html

Long discussion on same below.
https://www.pedelecs.co.uk/forum/threads/yosepower-hub-kits.30061/

unkel

Joe1919 wrote: »

Yose power have good value (when in stock) 350w (32kmh + )with battery thats not far off the 400 euro mark and posted from Europe.
https://www.yosepower.com/en/category/36V-65.html

€400 for a complete 36V kit including shipping with a 12Ah battery is decent value (although €150 more than I paid for same with an 8Ah battery), but none of the options in your link seem to work.

Joe1919

unkel wrote: »

€400 for a complete 36V kit including shipping with a 12Ah battery is decent value (although €150 more than I paid for same with an 8Ah battery), but none of the options in your link seem to work.

They are low in stock at the moment. They only have some size wheels without batteries e.g below 27.5 inch is 184.19 plus 20.50 pounds delivery.
https://www.yosepower.com/en/product/Hub-Motor-36V350W-27.5%22-Rear-Motor-Bicycle-E-Bike-Hub-Conversion-Kit-Silver-DIY-E-bike-LCD-Display-120.html

A branded cell LG battery 36v, 12.8ah costs 189.75 + 19 delivery pounds sterling. Unbranded Chinese cell batteries are cheaper.
https://www.yosepower.com/en/product/Original-LG-Cell-36V10.4Ah%2F36V12.8AH-Lithium-ion-Battery-Electric-Bicycle-Bottle-New-Black-DIY-69.html

There is some advantage I presume in buying full kit although battery cells may not be as good. The two item above bought separably come to around 500 euro.
I have bought two motor kits from them and have been delivered in less than 10 days.

[Deleted User]

unkel wrote: »

@Mad_Lad - I'm tempted to put in an offer on this 29er:

Linky

And convert it with two geared hub motors. Would this be a significant upgrade from what I currently have*, or will have with my current bike with two geared hubs and two 30A controllers? At the moment I just cycle around locally here, roughest is the overgrown grand canal tracks, but I might be tempted to try some of the new dedicated trails near 3 Rock mountain

*Coyote Edge 650B 7 gear as sold in Halfords for around the €800-€900 mark 2-3 years ago including battery (about GBP700-800 in the UK)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y00iUS_zDq0

To me it feels like a very nice bike, but obviously I am very inexperienced when it comes to even mid price bikes

Advice welcome!

I'd keep your current bike to be honest, just make sure they're the same motor for each wheel. Same rpm etc.

unkel

Joe1919 wrote: »

They are low in stock at the moment. They only have some size wheels without batteries e.g below 27.5 inch is 184.19 plus 20.50 pounds delivery.
https://www.yosepower.com/en/product/Hub-Motor-36V350W-27.5%22-Rear-Motor-Bicycle-E-Bike-Hub-Conversion-Kit-Silver-DIY-E-bike-LCD-Display-120.html

A branded cell LG battery 36v, 12.8ah costs 189.75 + 19 delivery pounds sterling. Unbranded Chinese cell batteries are cheaper.
https://www.yosepower.com/en/product/Original-LG-Cell-36V10.4Ah%2F36V12.8AH-Lithium-ion-Battery-Electric-Bicycle-Bottle-New-Black-DIY-69.html

About €400 shipped in total for an 8Ah kit. I paid €250 for same and mine actually included both inner and outer tube of the wheel.

unkel

Deleted User wrote: »

I'd keep your current bike to be honest

Voice of reason. Thanks man.

Deleted User wrote: »

just make sure they're the same motor for each wheel. Same rpm etc.

This seems to be hocus pocus. Nowhere are there any specs posted. Motors are listed as 24V, 36V, 48V and it turns out all are the very same.

Does it really matter? Just send all your volts and all your amps at the motor and it will do as you ask. You will receive power - is the only conclusion I can draw from looking into this over the last few weeks. Obviously this powah has an impact on the rest of your system. Ripping your fork and wheel apart massive torque on the wheels, deadly drain on the battery, etc.

[Deleted User]

unkel wrote: »

Voice of reason. Thanks man.

This seems to be hocus pocus. Nowhere are there any specs posted. Motors are listed as 24V, 36V, 48V and it turns out all are the very same.

Does it really matter? Just send all your volts and all your amps at the motor and it will do as you ask. You will receive power - is the only conclusion I can draw from looking into this over the last few weeks. Obviously this powah has an impact on the rest of your system. Ripping your fork and wheel apart massive torque on the wheels, deadly drain on the battery, etc.

Different spec Motors are wound for different torque and rpm , might not be good to have different motors to be honest.

unkel

Deleted User wrote: »

Different spec Motors are wound for different torque and rpm , might not be good to have different motors to be honest.

Aye that's the theory, but is that really an issue?

Push 58.8V through a 36V motor as in above link what Micah did and his bike has been fine for years, did you watch the vid?

[Deleted User]

unkel wrote: »

Aye that's the theory, but is that really an issue?

Push 58.8V through a 36V motor as in above link what Micah did and his bike has been fine for years, did you watch the vid?

Oh no, definitely, if they are different spec motors feeding them the same voltage will produce different speed and torque, whether this matter I don't know as I never did it. I was always a 1 motor man, 5.5 Kw at one point lol. Not a fan of front hubs to be honest but that's my personal preference.

To be honest you're probably better off at this stage with a mid mount motor lol.

unkel

Deleted User wrote: »

To be honest you're probably better off at this stage with a mid mount motor lol.

I think they are a terrible idea. The massive torque going through the chain and gears will rip them apart, unless you buy extremely expensive components.

Unless you want to climb mountains like a pro, and you have the budget of a pro, I'd say steer well clear of mid motors.

unkel

Joe1919 wrote: »

They are low in stock at the moment. They only have some size wheels without batteries e.g below 27.5 inch is 184.19 plus 20.50 pounds delivery.

That's €240 shipped. Not a rip off but not cheap either!

My motor was €77 shipped plus maybe €30-€40 for lacing. Throttle €3, 30A controller €20. That controller in that kit is only 8A so pretty useless unless you use a 52V pack instead of 36V. You don't need the rest of the parts really.

DaveyDave

Those ones linked say not compatible with Hollowtech II and hydraulic brakes, not sure why that would be?

unkel

Yeah I spotted that too. Makes no sense to me. I had to look up what Hollowtech 2 was though

Lumen

unkel wrote: »

I think they are a terrible idea. The massive torque going through the chain and gears will rip them apart, unless you buy extremely expensive components.

Unless you want to climb mountains like a pro, and you have the budget of a pro, I'd say steer well clear of mid motors.

It's not true that more expensive drivetrain components are stronger, once you're above budget level, the strongest setup will have the fewest number of gears, because with that you get a thicker, stronger chain, sprockets, and chainring.

The strongest drivetrain is single speed.

The question is whether you're trying to build a fast bicycle or a slow motorcycle.

Calahonda52

unkel wrote: »

I think they are a terrible idea. The massive torque going through the chain and gears will rip them apart, unless you buy extremely expensive components.

Unless you want to climb mountains like a pro, and you have the budget of a pro, I'd say steer well clear of mid motors.

.
Can you expand on the unless?

unkel

Lumen wrote: »

The question is whether you're trying to build a fast bicycle or a slow motorcycle.

Haha I like the analogy

I want both really. I want to still be able to pedal, but also want it to move at reasonable speed (say 30-35km/h) on its own.

But you agree that the torque on the chain and the gears of a mid motor is pretty brutal. Don't know what you can do about that, except maybe have a clutch mechanism that takes the torque away from the chain / gears while you are changing gear. But that really starts to sound like a slow motorcycle with a manual gearbox to me...

[Deleted User]

Chain drives are fine, most these days have sensors that detect gear changes and reduce the power but all someone has to do is back off the power before changing anyway.

Chain drive is definitely king for slow steep trail, they are much more efficient on hills at slower speeds but are harder on chains , sprockets etc but they are easy to replace and not very expensive.

Hubs are fine but can and do heat up quickly on steep hills because motors need to spin at higher revs to be more efficient so when they slow down under load more heat is generated instead of turning to power and if this situation is allowed regularly then the motor could be damaged.

Geared hub motors can not take as much abuse at all and their internal clutch and gears can get damaged with too much power and hard acceleration.

Upgraded geared hubs like the Mac Motors sold on em3ev are much better able to cope with higher power.

If wanting to climb hills regularly with a hub motor then temperature monitoring is essential along with a slower wind motor designed more for torque then give it more voltage for the speed you want. This will work much better.

unkel

Very insightful post, thank you!

Deleted User wrote: »

Geared hub motors can not take as much abuse at all and their internal clutch and gears can get damaged with too much power and hard acceleration.

Upgraded geared hubs like the Mac Motors sold on em3ev are much better able to cope with higher power.

I presume those upgraded geared hubs use metal gears instead of the nylon ones that are fitted as standard? If so, might be easy enough to open the motor and replace these?

[Deleted User]

unkel wrote: »

Very insightful post, thank you!

I presume those upgraded geared hubs use metal gears instead of the nylon ones that are fitted as standard? If so, might be easy enough to open the motor and replace these?

Welcome,

If the dimensions are not identical then no they won't fit another motor and they are not that easy to fit or rather, more of a pain in the ass.

I know Paul on em3ev sells these motors with temp sensor which can connect to the cycle analyst.

The chain drive motors offer the best of both worlds really, they provide all the power you need in any gear/terrain , while hubs are fine for most situations but they will struggle on very slow steep trails/roads and if they don't struggle they are probably burning up inside as the heat takes time to transfer to the outside of the motor, especially for geared hubs, they can be much hotter inside then you will feel on the outside.

Yes of course, you can buy a motor designed for a scooter, a 6 Kw motor that will handle anything and do that if you wish it would be a blast, small hubs have their limitations + big hubs are heavy and not really designed for trails + you sure as hell won't pedal with one with no power.

The Bafang BBS02 or BBSHD would be just perfect for ebike for all situations, however I've read that there is some resistance when peddling with no motor power but the same can be said for the legal chain drives from Bosch/Panasonic and others, only recently have Bosch addressed this or so I've read.

unkel

My bike is mostly just for using locally, commute occasionally, taking dog to park / canal. Not much in the way of hills here! I will have to be gentle with that 30A controller so as not to melt the nylon gears in that hub motor so!