Is anyone else starting to become a bit worried? mod note in first post

makeorbrake wrote: »

We could ban all cars because criminals use them and no doubt that would make it very difficult for them. Using Cnocbui's analogy - ditto with roads.

Doesn’t seem like a correct analogy for KYC though: banning all cars would be like banning all cryptos - a very extreme measure which we agree would make no sense.

Having registration plates so that the car’s owner can be personally identified is more like personally identifying the holder of each exchange account via KYC.

But yes let’s park it there, all I was saying is that this particular case is an exemple whereby KYC did serve its stated purpose.

makeorbrake

Bob24 wrote: »

Won’t restart the general debate on KYC which we have done to death already, but quite frankly in this particular case whereby it directly led to indenting child porn users, I don’t see how one can disagree that it did serve a purpose (and thus I don’t see how one can make an argument that it never serves a purpose).

Sorry Bob24 but you did restart it. There's no doubt that it helped in that one instance yes. But at what cost? I direct you back to Snowden's quote =>

"“The only world in which you can foreclose on entire avenues of human activity … is a world in which everybody’s sitting in a jail cell.”

We could ban all cars because criminals use them and no doubt that would make it very difficult for them. Using Cnocbui's analogy - ditto with roads.

As Snowden points out, throw everyone in prison and you'll have less crime for sure. But that would be at a high cost. KYC comes at a high cost - and is largely ineffective for what we've been told its to be used for.

You don't agree - and thats perfectly fine. We can park it up right here.

Gerald Obedient Manicurist wrote: »

Well I hope you're right.

Actually I would prefer to be wrong :-)

While I have been almost cashless for a good few years, I like the fact that case is still around and that some people are I’m using it. Not just for the privacy aspect of it, but also because it is much harder to apply negative interest rates or to confiscate cash than digital money. And I think we are coming into an era whereby bank depositors will see negative interest rates and possible confiscations on their accounts (to bail-in failed banks).

Of course crypto and gold are other answers to those problems, but I don’t mind having cash as an extra one.

makeorbrake wrote: »

I disagree entirely and unequivocally. KYC is a ruse to enable financial surveillance. The cost it adds to business is also something that doesn't get enough coverage. That cost has to be passed on to consumers although they may not see it directly. The friction it causes on a daily basis prevents people going about their business and is stymieing fintech development.

Won’t restart the general debate on KYC which we have done to death already, but quite frankly in this particular case whereby it directly led to indenting child porn users, I don’t see how one can disagree that it did serve a purpose (and thus I don’t see how one can make an argument that it never serves a purpose).

makeorbrake

Bob24 wrote: »

Agree, while obviously in this case it was right to track them down, these proper use cases for traceability eventually make private money indefensible and lead to easier and unjustified surveillance.

This particular case does negate the argument made by some posters her that KYC measures are just an annoyance, are not working, and serve no purpose though. In this case they were clearly key to proper and unquestionable law enforcement.

I disagree entirely and unequivocally. KYC is a ruse to enable financial surveillance. The cost it adds to business is also something that doesn't get enough coverage. That cost has to be passed on to consumers although they may not see it directly. The friction it causes on a daily basis prevents people going about their business and is stymieing fintech development.

cnocbui wrote: »

Investigators have concluded that almost every criminal act is facilitated at some point by someone making use of roads. The Green coalition is now urging the government to have all public roads ripped up and removed and believes this will result in a 98% reduction in crime.

Agree completely.

Dohnjoe wrote: »

This is an out of place analogy and it grossly misses the point. Private, untraceable currencies are a better vehicle for criminal activity than a traceable currency.

It's not an 'out of place' analogy at all. It's exactly the point.

Edward Snowden came out and said that KYC does SFA to fight terrorism. He also stated this -> “The only world in which you can foreclose on entire avenues of human activity … is a world in which everybody’s sitting in a jail cell.”
Tie that comment back to Cnocbui's analogy. There are many avenues in which crime can be fought - but getting in the way of peoples privacy and civil liberties shouldn't be one of them.

Snowden also recently called on privacy features to be enabled for Bitcoin.

Bob24 wrote: »

Cash use is already dropping massively and some countries are banning its use for some not so large transactions. Also rather than outlawing cash, it’s disappearance would look more like central banks stoping to issue more of it and gradually removing the legal tender of the circulating supply.

So while I wouldn’t like it, I think we might be witnessing cash disappearance in the next 10 to 20 years.

Indeed, at current rates of decline, physical cash use (in UK) would end in around 2026. Obviously it will be around longer than that to facilitate continued use (in e.g. rural communities)

Bob24 wrote: »

Cash use is already dropping massively and some countries are banning its use for some not so large transactions. Also rather than outlawing cash, it’s disappearance would look more like central banks stoping to issue more of it and gradually removing the legal tender of the circulating supply.

So while I wouldn’t like it, I think we might be witnessing cash disappearance in the next 10 to 20 years.

Well I hope you're right.

JohnnyFlash wrote: »

Bitcoin is over 10 years old and has only been successfully used as a currency in dark web markets selling child porn, drugs, and guns. It’s why so many dodgy fückers suddenly became wealthy during the bubble. It’s unusable as a currency, is a disaster for the environment, and appears to only be used for speculation on what price one chancer can unload to another for real money.

Bitcoin is a very stupid idea.

I disagree

As a technical idea it's quite good, especially it's pioneering use of blockchain and decentralisation. As a type of currency, not so much, but as a speculative asset, it's certainly a ground-breaking type of financial instrument. We're likely to see crypto based currencies (backed by the ECB, etc) at some point in the future, crypto based assets, blockchain based assets and systems and possibly some form of decentralised (global) stable-coin that can mitigate localised economic crises and crashes

Gerald Obedient Manicurist wrote: »

Without physical cash being outlawed it won't go anywhere soon.

Cash use is already dropping massively and some countries are banning its use for some not so large transactions. Also rather than outlawing cash, it’s disappearance would look more like central banks stoping to issue more of it and gradually removing the legal tender of the circulating supply.

So while I wouldn’t like it, I think we might be witnessing cash disappearance in the next 10 to 20 years.

cnocbui wrote: »

Investigators have concluded that almost every criminal act is facilitated at some point by someone making use of roads. The Green coalition is now urging the government to have all public roads ripped up and removed and believes this will result in a 98% reduction in crime.

This is an out of place analogy and it grossly misses the point

Private, untraceable currencies are a better vehicle for criminal activity than a traceable currency.

JohnnyFlash

cnocbui wrote: »

Investigators have concluded that almost every criminal act is facilitated at some point by someone making use of roads. The Green coalition is now urging the government to have all public roads ripped up and removed and believes this will result in a 98% reduction in crime.

Very poor comparison. Roads are a vital component of international transport and facilitate trade and travel.

Bitcoin is over 10 years old and has only been successfully used as a currency in dark web markets selling child porn, drugs, and guns. It’s why so many dodgy fückers suddenly became wealthy during the bubble. It’s unusable as a currency, is a disaster for the environment, and appears to only be used for speculation on what price one chancer can unload to another for real money.

Bitcoin is a very stupid idea.

cnocbui

Dohnjoe wrote: »

Hundreds arrested in dark web child porn investigation
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-50073092

The buyers used BTC, and the investigators tracked them, not by the BTC transactions, but with the KYC at the exchanges themselves. Private and untraceable currencies (including eventually physical cash) don't have much of a future.

Investigators have concluded that almost every criminal act is facilitated at some point by someone making use of roads. The Green coalition is now urging the government to have all public roads ripped up and removed and believes this will result in a 98% reduction in crime.

Without physical cash being outlawed it won't go anywhere soon.

Regarding traceability, once you're off the exchange and have a couple of ledgers, Bob's your uncle really.

Gerald Obedient Manicurist wrote: »

Yes, cash the only way forward so this can continue.

I included physical cash, which is being increasingly phased out and replaced with digital

Dohnjoe wrote: »

Hundreds arrested in dark web child porn investigation
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-50073092

The buyers used BTC, and the investigators tracked them, not by the BTC transactions, but with the KYC at the exchanges themselves. Private and untraceable currencies (including eventually physical cash) don't have much of a future.

Yes, cash the only way forward so this can continue.

???????????

Dohnjoe wrote: »

Hundreds arrested in dark web child porn investigation
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-50073092

The buyers used BTC, and the investigators tracked them, not by the BTC transactions, but with the KYC at the exchanges themselves. Private and untraceable currencies (including eventually physical cash) don't have much of a future.

Agree, while obviously in this case it was right to track them down, these proper use cases for traceability eventually make private money indefensible and lead to easier and unjustified surveillance.

This particular case does negate the argument made by some posters her that KYC measures are just an annoyance, are not working, and serve no purpose though. In this case they were clearly key to proper and unquestionable law enforcement.

Hundreds arrested in dark web child porn investigation
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-50073092

The buyers used BTC, and the investigators tracked them, not by the BTC transactions, but with the KYC at the exchanges themselves. Private and untraceable currencies (including eventually physical cash) don't have much of a future.

cnocbui

makeorbrake wrote: »

Can you be contracted to hunt down no-coiner internet trolls?

I'll PM you.

TheAnalyst_

Arrival wrote: »

Really curious to see you elaborate on this...

Tosser lads who make crytpo currency a large part of their identity and will get really defenisve if you say anything critical about it.

makeorbrake

cnocbui wrote: »

I'm a full time pirate, sometime kidnapper and hit-man for hire. I'm wanted in at least 6 countries. I like bitcoin and gold. Dirty deeds, done dirt cheap for a reasonable fee, plus expenses.

Can you be contracted to hunt down no-coiner internet trolls?

cnocbui

I'm a full time pirate, sometime kidnapper and hit-man for hire. I'm wanted in at least 6 countries. I like bitcoin and gold. Dirty deeds, done dirt cheap for a reasonable fee, plus expenses.

Arrival

TheAnalyst_ wrote: »

Gerald Obedient Manicurist wrote: »

Any drop near that level and currents hodlers will back the truck up so those levels would get eaten up in days.

McAfee after reiterating his $1,000,000 prediction by end of 2020. Hard to hate the guy !

He’s a murderer and an all round piece Of ****. No surprise he’s liked by crypto bros.

Really curious to see you elaborate on this...

He is an incredibly entertaining person to follow on Twitter.

el diablo

Dohnjoe wrote: »

In fairness McAfee is a full-on whackjob. Last I heard he was sailing somewhere with a boatload of guns and booze. Cool and edgy and anti-establishment to the max like - but why people would take any investment advice or predictions from him seriously is a total mystery

I was mainly referring to the "crypto bros" comment. I don't take anything McAfee says seriously.

In fairness McAfee is a full-on whackjob. Last I heard he was sailing somewhere with a boatload of guns and booze. Cool and edgy and anti-establishment to the max like - but why people would take any investment advice or predictions from him seriously is a total mystery

el diablo

TheAnalyst_ wrote: »

He’s a murderer and an all round piece Of ****. No surprise he’s liked by crypto bros.

What a laughably stupid comment. Why are you even here in the crypto forum?

TheAnalyst_

Gerald Obedient Manicurist wrote: »

Any drop near that level and currents hodlers will back the truck up so those levels would get eaten up in days.

McAfee after reiterating his $1,000,000 prediction by end of 2020. Hard to hate the guy !

He’s a murderer and an all round piece Of ****. No surprise he’s liked by crypto bros.

Gerald Obedient Manicurist wrote: »

McAfee after reiterating his $1,000,000 prediction by end of 2020. Hard to hate the guy !

I reserve my judgement on him to when and if the time comes to honour is commitment :-D

Any drop near that level and currents hodlers will back the truck up so those levels would get eaten up in days.

McAfee after reiterating his $1,000,000 prediction by end of 2020. Hard to hate the guy !