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Home heating automation

[Deleted User]

Just starting to look into this now though probably wont be purchasing for a while unless a bargain pops up.

I know there are a number of options out there for this but many like the Nest for example appear to be mostly based around running automatically depending on temp etc or learning your usage.

What I want to know is which one is best to use like a traditional timer? I'd want to set a schedule for heating and water to come on and off and also boost it if I felt like it. Learning my usage or using the thermostat to turn on/off the heating is not something I would really use.

I do want to be able to boost the heat and water remotely so the place is warm before arriving home and have a nice interface for setting timers using an app as we change around our water and heating timing quite often and its a pain having to do this using the poor user interfaces and controls on a traditional heating timer.

I'm assuming they can all be used in this way but I wonder if any device in particular is more geared towards this type of usage?

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keane2097

deezell wrote: »

Just check the ratings on your immersion. You imply it is a dual immersion, with sink/bath switch. See can you read the wattage or current consumption in Bath mode on the immersion casing .The FSTWifi is rated at 13A, A 230v 3Kw element is right on the limit of this. I would be a little uncomfortable with the switch working at its current limits.

On further inspection it looks like I have two elements as a sticker on the tank says Immersion Heater 2/2.85kW 220V, and there's another sticker with

Blue Neutral/Stat
Brown Live/Sink
Black Live/Bath
Green/Yellow Earth

Since I have no switch to specify whether I'm using the sink or bath element - just the standard Apt timer - I presume this means somebody tied off one or other of the wires for one of the elements or something?

deezell

keane2097 wrote: »

deezell wrote: »

Just check the ratings on your immersion. You imply it is a dual immersion, with sink/bath switch. See can you read the wattage or current consumption in Bath mode on the immersion casing .The FSTWifi is rated at 13A, A 230v 3Kw element is right on the limit of this. I would be a little uncomfortable with the switch working at its current limits.

On further inspection it looks like I have two elements as a sticker on the tank says Immersion Heater 2/2.85kW 220V, and there's another sticker with

Blue Neutral/Stat
Brown Live/Sink
Black Live/Bath
Green/Yellow Earth

Since I have no switch to specify whether I'm using the sink or bath element - just the standard Apt timer - I presume this means somebody tied off one or other of the wires for one of the elements or something?

If it's just using the bath element, then that would be the 2.85Kw element, which consumes a tad shy of 3kw here because our voltage is 230V. This will pull a full 13a. If only the 2Kw sink element is used, this will pull 9 amps, within the limit of the Wi-Fi relay.
You'd know of you only had sink element as only the top part of the tank would heat. It's possible though unlikely that both have been strapped together, requiring a hefty 22 amps.

deezell

Axl Defeated Nitroglycerine wrote: »

Howya,

My heating system consists of a combi-boiler for the water - no hot water tank - and 2 zones for the heating with a stat in each zone, upstairs and downstairs. I'm interested in installing Nest to control the system. What do I need to get? I assume 2 stats and a heatlink? Does each stat come with a heatlink?
Learning Thermostat or Thermostat E?

Each stat has. A heatlink, E heatlink has no HW control, which you don't need, so either stat will do.

kaisersose77

I have a 2 zone and hot water setup with best and noticed today that there was no hot water (have it scheduled for each morning). Then I realised the heating wasn't working either even though it appeared to be on the nests. When I checked the boiler nothing had tripped but I noticed that there was no light on at the fuse socket. I can't say I ever paid attention to whether the light ever came on but the boiler doesn't seem to power on as there are no lights on at all on it. I replaced the fuse but made no difference. The boiler is a baxi 35/80.

What else could be up if the fuse light is not coming on? Can the best itself have any impact on stopping the boiler powering on? I pressed the heatsink buttons manually but made no difference.

deezell

kaisersose77 wrote: »

I have a 2 zone and hot water setup with best and noticed today that there was no hot water (have it scheduled for each morning). Then I realised the heating wasn't working either even though it appeared to be on the nests. When I checked the boiler nothing had tripped but I noticed that there was no light on at the fuse socket. I can't say I ever paid attention to whether the light ever came on but the boiler doesn't seem to power on as there are no lights on at all on it. I replaced the fuse but made no difference. The boiler is a baxi 35/80.

What else could be up if the fuse light is not coming on? Can the best itself have any impact on stopping the boiler powering on? I pressed the heatsink buttons manually but made no difference.

Check your main house circuit breaker board. The breaker that supplies the boiler and it's fused socket may have tripped.

kaisersose77

Sorry should be clearer in my last post. Yes I checked that but nothing had tripped so am a bit dumbfounded.

deezell

kaisersose77 wrote: »

Sorry should be clearer in my last post. Yes I checked that but nothing had tripped so am a bit dumbfounded.

Next step is to check if there is power in the " fused socket" as you describe it. Do you mean a hardwired power cable point like this?

kaisersose77

Yes like that but has no switch. Light is not coming on.

Fuse is not blown and have tried other ones but made no difference.

deezell

kaisersose77 wrote: »

Yes like that but has no switch. Light is not coming on.

Fuse is not blown and have tried other ones but made no difference.

If the neon is not lit then you have a break from your main circuit breaker board to the fused connector. Next step is to open it, pull out and using a phase tester screwdriver, check for mains on the incoming cable, and prior to this check if that cable hasn't popped out of its screw clamp terminal on the back side. Careful now, if you're not up to it call a sparks or phone a friend. There isn't by any chance a wall switch near or above this, as the connector itself is unswitched, it would be normal enough to have a switch before it.

kaisersose77

No switch around it just normal plug sockets and switches for washing machine etc. I didn't press any switches out of the ordinary prior to me noticing the issue. Looks I will have to get someone to have a look.

Can the nest itself have any effect on power being sent to the hardwired power cable point?

deezell

kaisersose77 wrote: »

No switch around it just normal plug sockets and switches for washing machine etc. I didn't press any switches out of the ordinary prior to me noticing the issue. Looks I will have to get someone to have a look.

Can the nest itself have any effect on power being sent to the hardwired power cable point?

The nest heatlink relay is rated quite low current, designed to trigger the boiler which itself is already powered always on. In your case you have 3 zones, so the nests will operate the zone valves, which in turn have relays which are all combined to call the boiler via its switched live call for heat terminal. Very old oil boilers might be powered directly from a timer/stat/valve relay , in which case the boiler only has power when the above call for heat. Modern boilers need a permanent mains supply, with a live out/ switched live return to instruct it to fire. If there is no power to the boiler, the relays on the valves won't power it as they should take their live from the boiler circuit, but they don't always. Either way they can't fire an unpowered boiler.

kaisersose77

Would the baxi 35/80 be considered a modern boiler? I asked a family member to have a look at he said there is power coming out of the fuse box but no power going into the unswitched fused socket.

deezell

If it's a gas boiler it will have permanent mains. Only some really old oil boilers could operate as hard on/off devices, no post purge after stat opens etc.
If there's no power going in, rig a temporary power source via a nearby socket, put a 3 pin plug on the lead from boiler to the wall connection. Turn off power to nests/valves when doing in this, in case a live SL from a valve leaks back up the boiler wiring. They should all be powered from the one mains breaker anyway.
Did you drill any holes in walls recently? Must be some reason the power is gone. We're there any other sockets or equipment on the same breaker as the boiler? Check if they are live. Wiring to multiple points is often daisy chained, wires can come loose at the back of a socket in the chain before the boiler.

kaisersose77

No drilling or anything that I can think of that might have affected power. Only started using nests again last week after 5/6 months without using them for heating (was using them for hot water only). Heating seemed to work fine in the evenings I had it on until the other morning I realised there was no hot water. Will ask a family member to check out what you suggested as he would be more technical than me. Breaker was for heating only. Haven't noticed any other power issues other than boiler.

Thanks for the help.

Fishy1

Hi,
Our heating system needs a new timer, old one packed in yesterday.
We have a gas boiler with 3 zones (downstairs heating, upstairs heating & hot water tank).
Any experts out there willing to recommend a solution? Hive or Nest, or something else? Don’t really want to have to pay monthly subscriptions (can’t recall, but I think one app requires this?)
Am under pressure to decide as plumber will be calling!
We’re with Electric Ireland if that’s any help!

paul g 1

Fishy1 wrote: »

Hi,
Our heating system needs a new timer, old one packed in yesterday.
We have a gas boiler with 3 zones (downstairs heating, upstairs heating & hot water tank).
Any experts out there willing to recommend a solution? Hive or Nest, or something else? Don’t really want to have to pay monthly subscriptions (can’t recall, but I think one app requires this?)
Am under pressure to decide as plumber will be calling!
We’re with Electric Ireland if that’s any help!

Nest won't work too many zones, I think
Climote is the one with monthly fee but it's only like 6.00 I think.
Haven't looked into hive
EPH controller is another version, no monthly fee

chuck eastwood

Fishy1 wrote: »

Hi,
Our heating system needs a new timer, old one packed in yesterday.
We have a gas boiler with 3 zones (downstairs heating, upstairs heating & hot water tank).
Any experts out there willing to recommend a solution? Hive or Nest, or something else? Don’t really want to have to pay monthly subscriptions (can’t recall, but I think one app requires this?)
Am under pressure to decide as plumber will be calling!
We’re with Electric Ireland if that’s any help!

Give electric Ireland sales line a ring. The often have specials on controls but at the very least they can tell you what is compatible with your system. Your plumber will probably only fit like for like, a sparks would be a better option for changing control setups

deezell

Are you looking for smart controls, remote app, schedules etc. Hive, Nest, Tado, Drayton Wiser can all control 2 CH and 1 HW zone. Electric Ireland may have deals for one stat with HW, you'll have to see what the second zone will add, but smart grants will cover a lot of it.

Fishy1

Thanks all,
Crisis averted, plumber managed to fix the timer! Not sure how long the fix will last for, but it will give me time to research our options properly.

comfort

I finally got my boiler amended to have 3 zones (2 Heating, 1 hot water) where it was all 1 zone even though there were 3 controllers attached to the tank in the hot press.
I stayed with the Hive system as had hive in operating the 1 complete zone as was able to operate with iPhone.

Now I have the 3 zones and using Hive to operate all. Totally delighted for now

maxamillius

Hi Guys,

I’m back on this again and am looking at pulling the trigger on a Nest.

Current setup is;

Oil boiler with integral analogue timeclock

Analogue wall stat to control circulating pump

Water can be heated either by gravity or by the pump.

Is Nest a good option here? Straightforward to setup?

Cheers

deezell

maxamillius wrote: »

Hi Guys,

I’m back on this again and am looking at pulling the trigger on a Nest.

Current setup is;

Oil boiler with integral analogue timeclock

Analogue wall stat to control circulating pump

Water can be heated either by gravity or by the pump.

Is Nest a good option here? Straightforward to setup?

Cheers

Heres how to wire the nest heatlink receiver for your gravity HW/pumped CH system
https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=108836423&postcount=998

Edit: your boiler is currently called I presume only by its timer, which must be on so CH will work when the stat calls the pump. Its unlikely the stat is wired back into the boiler. You will need to connect the boiler to whichever relay (nest, Tado) you chose, so that the boiler is fired only by the call from the relay. This is usually achieved at a terminal inside the boiler whic has a link from the Timer/Always on switch. removing this link and connecting to the Nest heatlink relay SL (switched live) will pass control of the boiler firing to the heatlink, for HW and CH events. You may need assistance with this step if you cannot identify the boiler SL input terminal

maxamillius

deezell wrote: »

Heres how to wire the nest heatlink receiver for your gravity HW/pumped CH system
https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=108836423&postcount=998

Edit: your boiler is currently called I presume only by its timer, which must be on so CH will work when the stat calls the pump. Its unlikely the stat is wired back into the boiler. You will need to connect the boiler to whichever relay (nest, Tado) you chose, so that the boiler is fired only by the call from the relay. This is usually achieved at a terminal inside the boiler whic has a link from the Timer/Always on switch. removing this link and connecting to the Nest heatlink relay SL (switched live) will pass control of the boiler firing to the heatlink, for HW and CH events. You may need assistance with this step if you cannot identify the boiler SL input terminal

That’s right, Boiler is either on all the time, or on using the boilers time clock.

Stat looks to be switching the live to the pump.

ted1

paul g 1 wrote: »

Nest won't work too many zones, I think
Climote is the one with monthly fee but it's only like 6.00 I think.
Haven't looked into hive
EPH controller is another version, no monthly fee

Nest will work but requires 2 of them. Electric Ireland will do a deal

deezell

maxamillius wrote: »

That’s right, Boiler is either on all the time, or on using the boilers time clock.

Stat looks to be switching the live to the pump.

Wire up as per that diagram and it will work perfectly. You can set water heating slots, and it will also heat when CH called.

maxamillius

deezell wrote: »

Wire up as per that diagram and it will work perfectly. You can set water heating slots, and it will also heat when CH called.

Great stuff thanks for that Deezel

maxamillius

deezell wrote: »

Wire up as per that diagram and it will work perfectly. You can set water heating slots, and it will also heat when CH called.

Presumably I just link the live and switched live at the current wall stat and then set up the nest as wireless?

deezell

maxamillius wrote: »

Presumably I just link the live and switched live at the current wall stat and then set up the nest as wireless?

You'll need to do a bit more than that. Your current stat does no more than turning the pump on and off, and you have to manually turn or time the boiler on and off. To get the nest to turn boiler and pump on for CH, and boiler only for HW, requires wiring the nest relay (Heatlink) box into the boiler, to fire it instead of its built in timer. You set up the new timer schedules on the nest. The SL for CH goes straight to the pump, replacing the old stat live and SL, which are redundant.
Now the nest is powered by a small adaptor like a phone charger, and you can plug it in and sit it on a stand anywhere, it's wireless to the heatlink. If you want to wall mount the nest, you need to run this power to it. If you mount the nest where the old stat was, you can reuse the now redundant live and SL wires from the old stat to bring power from the 12v low voltage terminals on the heatlink box to the wall plate of the nest, making a very neat job of it. These wires will also carry a wired digital version of the wireless connection, so distance/walls to the heatlink is no longer an issue. It's critical that If you reuse these wires that they are identified at the pump/boiler end, isolated and disconnected from any mains (at either end), or you could end up frying the nest. Terminals marked T1 and T2 12v are the ones.

maxamillius

deezell wrote: »

You'll need to do a bit more than that. Your current stat does no more than turning the pump on and off, and you have to manually turn or time the boiler on and off. To get the nest to turn boiler and pump on for CH, and boiler only for HW, requires wiring the nest relay (Heatlink) box into the boiler, to fire it instead of its built in timer. You set up the new timer schedules on the nest. The SL for CH goes straight to the pump, replacing the old stat live and SL, which are redundant.
Now the nest is powered by a small adaptor like a phone charger, and you can plug it in and sit it on a stand anywhere, it's wireless to the heatlink. If you want to wall mount the nest, you need to run this power to it. If you mount the nest where the old stat was, you can reuse the now redundant live and SL wires from the old stat to bring power from the 12v low voltage terminals on the heatlink box to the wall plate of the nest, making a very neat job of it. These wires will also carry a wired digital version of the wireless connection, so distance/walls to the heatlink is no longer an issue. It's critical that If you reuse these wires that they are identified at the pump/boiler end, isolated and disconnected from any mains (at either end), or you could end up frying the nest. Terminals marked T1 and T2 12v are the ones.

Got ya, I think I’d remove the old wall stat and mount the nest in place, so basically then I’m using the old live/sw live to carry the 12v from the heat link terminals.

Think that all makes sense!

Valhallapt

Has anyone gone down the DIY path? I am thinking of using an aqara relay alongside a physical push button. The aqara temperature sensors and presence sensors are quite good and it works well with HomeKit. Are there any legal consequences to doing this?