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M11/N11 - M50 (J4) to Coyne's Cross (J14) [options published]

marno21

A desperately needed scheme in planning according to Michael Nolan of the TII at a recent Engineers Ireland conference.

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marno21

Tender out for topographical survey of the route

https://irl.eu-supply.com/ctm/Supplier/PublicPurchase/154221/0/0?returnUrl=ctm/Supplier/publictenders&b=ETENDERS_SIMPLE

prunudo

marno21 wrote: »

Tender out for topographical survey of the route

https://irl.eu-supply.com/ctm/Supplier/PublicPurchase/154221/0/0?returnUrl=ctm/Supplier/publictenders&b=ETENDERS_SIMPLE

Would they not have this information from previous upgrades. Not like the hills have changed in the last 30 years.

Chris_5339762

AAAAAAAAA wrote: »

The railway in Wicklow has been insufficient for the entire lifetime of the DART. A 2km tunnel through Bray head to Greystones is all that is really needed to properly doubletrack the whole way to Wicklow Town at least, the land is mostly unobstructed to construct a second track for the majority of the route.

Tunneling is not so prohibitively expensive that this idea should be overlooked, in my opinion.

I always think of it this way, that in other countries this would have been doubletracked somehow. New tunnel much further inland... something.

marno21

https://www.independent.ie/regionals/wicklowpeople/concerns-over-third-lane-planned-for-kilmacanagoue-38575288.html

prunudo

marno21 wrote: »

https://www.independent.ie/regionals/wicklowpeople/concerns-over-third-lane-planned-for-kilmacanagoue-38575288.html

Same article was in the Bray People last week. I've said it before but the original scheme should have gone to the east of the village and been a proper bypass. We contuine to be build these half measure projects in this country to appease locals only to be held to ransom to them again further down the line when the projects need to be upgraded.

JupiterKid

AAAAAAAAA wrote: »

The railway in Wicklow has been insufficient for the entire lifetime of the DART. A 2km tunnel through Bray head to Greystones is all that is really needed to properly doubletrack the whole way to Wicklow Town at least, the land is mostly unobstructed to construct a second track for the majority of the route.

Tunneling is not so prohibitively expensive that this idea should be overlooked, in my opinion.

Agreed. The existing rail line running from Bray to Greystones has had to be recut in the past as coastal erosion (which is very bad in spots along the East coast) caused the first cutting to collapse and resulted in the loss of lives in the 19th century.

So the long-term solution to the Bray Head erosion problem is going to have to be a new route to the West - with extensive tunneling. The entire rail line from Bray to at least Wicklow town also needs to be double track.

Also, the fact that the line south of Wicklow town swings west, inland through the Vale of Avoca (like the old T7 road did prior to the N11 designation in the 1970s), adds to rail journey times between Dublin and Wexford and a re-routing of the line between Wicklow and Arklow should also be looked at.

Only public transport solutions will properly address the N11 capacity problems. Bad planning and scattergun development have been the major contributors to these problems.

prunudo

I think bus lanes will be the solution here to combat the commuter traffic. As much as ld like to see a new tunnel and double tracking I just can't see them committing to massive infrastructure spend when they contuine to drag their heals with Dart upgrades and Metrolink.

loyatemu

I made this suggestion on the Bray-Greystones Line thread.

The line south of Wicklow Town is a write-off, we're unlikely to ever see any significant investment in it as the passenger numbers are tiny (Irish Rail would probably close it given the chance). A cheap solution for people coming from south of there is P&R off the N11 onto a new station near Rathnew where there is loads of space and the train line is very close to a motorway junction. A shuttle service from there to Greystones or Bray would also provide a much better train service for Wicklow Town. The P&R station could be done relatively cheaply, a new terminal platform and a platform on the running line wouldn't even require lifts.

spacetweek

marno21 wrote: »

https://www.independent.ie/regionals/wicklowpeople/concerns-over-third-lane-planned-for-kilmacanagoue-38575288.html

Oh dear. Must have been a slow news day.

prunudo

Letters have been received by landowners who may be effected by one or more route options. Seems like they took the names from the land registry but bar the name and address it seems a fairly generic letter. Public consultation in the Glenview Hotel on Tuesday 12th November where they will show plans and various route options with preferred route to be selected in early 2020.

marno21

prunudo wrote: »

Letters have been received by landowners who may be effected by one or more route options. Seems like they took the names from the land registry but bar the name and address it seems a fairly generic letter. Public consultation in the Glenview Hotel on Tuesday 12th November where they will show plans and various route options with preferred route to be selected in early 2020.

Good stuff. Thanks for that, movement on the options at last

prunudo

marno21 wrote: »

Good stuff. Thanks for that, movement on the options at last

Also meant to say, the letter mentions going to the website to stay up to date so I'd imagine there'll be plans and more info on that in the next week so.

https://n11m11.ie/2019/11/01/n11-m11-junction-4-to-junction-14-improvement-scheme-public-consultation-no-2/

spacetweek

Looking forward to seeing the options.

marno21

Article on some of the options to be published this wekk

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/commuters-to-dublin-face-years-of-road-works-in-wicklow-1.4078580

spacetweek

Some tasters in this article.
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/commuters-to-dublin-face-years-of-road-works-in-wicklow-1.4078580

SeanW

No sign of any of it to be upgraded to motorway then? Especially if the plan is to add a bus lane onto it.

Edit: also from the website:
The project is being managed by Kildare National Roads Office with Arup appointed as lead consultant to advance the project through the planning and design process.

Should it not be a local office in Wicklow?

prunudo

Nothing in the article that hasn't been talked about or feared locally. From my understanding of talking to them at the last consultation was that anything and everything was on the table.
The reality is that any non numbered junction or entrance will be up for closure. The devil will be in the detail tomorrow.

I think Kildare have a better roads department than Wicklow, or certainly it has more resources/experience. Similarly I think Limerick coco are behind the m20 rather than Cork.

marno21

SeanW wrote: »

No sign of any of it to be upgraded to motorway then? Especially if the plan is to add a bus lane onto it.

Edit: also from the website:
The project is being managed by Kildare National Roads Office with Arup appointed as lead consultant to advance the project through the planning and design process.

Should it not be a local office in Wicklow?

There’s no national roads design office in Wicklow, so this is being done by Kildare. Same with the major N81 scheme, Kildare are handling that too

Macy0161

SeanW wrote: »

No sign of any of it to be upgraded to motorway then? Especially if the plan is to add a bus lane onto it.

Priority has to be given to Public Transport. No point in it being motorway standard, and just the same lines of cars with a nominal faster speed limit, and more restricted use. The stats are in the article - build more road capacity, get more vehicles.

Traffic on the M11/N11 road has risen dramatically since the Glen o’ the Downs road was widened to a dual carriageway, going from 25,600 vehicles a day in 1999, to 53,000 last year.

If anything, they should be considering downgrading further south to give the option of more bus lanes.

SeanW wrote: »

Should it not be a local office in Wicklow?

Don't know the structure, but I think there's something of a shared services model in Local Government across the state in specialist areas.

josip

Macy0161 wrote: »

If anything, they should be considering downgrading further south to give the option of more bus lanes.

I don't think buses and a bus lane on the M/N11 are the answer, but I don't have any hard facts to justify why I think that. Is this kind of solution in place in any other European country where they have an approach motorway bus-laned so far out?

I think the railway line should be double tracked as far Rathnew with a massive Park and Ride beside the M11 as some poster suggested.

The Luas Green Line would also need to be extended to Bray so that commuters for Cherrywood and Sandyford can transfer there.

Macy0161

josip wrote: »

I don't think buses and a bus lane on the M/N11 are the answer, but I don't have any hard facts to justify why I think that. Is this kind of solution in place in any other European country where they have an approach motorway bus-laned so far out?

I think the railway line should be double tracked as far Rathnew with a massive Park and Ride beside the M11 as some poster suggested.

The Luas Green Line would also need to be extended to Bray so that commuters for Cherrywood and Sandyford can transfer there.

Personally, I think they should be doing the hard shoulder to bus lane now, as buses could be on stream potentially within a year.

Double tracking maybe ideal as the long term goal, but it's at least a decade down the line if they started now.

Demand is there for buses as is - the issue is capacity, and the fact they get stuck in the same traffic as private vehicles as things stand.

exaisle

marno21 wrote: »

There’s no national roads design office in Wicklow, so this is being done by Kildare. Same with the major N81 scheme, Kildare are handling that too

Which major N81 scheme? The one that's been shelved? Don't get me started...

prunudo

Haven't been up to the consultation yet but I've seen a photo of what is planned around the Glen of the Downs and its way more ambitious than I expected, new route options to the east and west of the existing mainline. Will get more details later.

loyatemu

prunudo wrote: »

Haven't been up to the consultation yet but I've seen a photo of what is planned around the Glen of the Downs and its way more ambitious than I expected, new route options to the east and west of the existing mainline. Will get more details later.

the documents will be online later today anyway.

prunudo

So went up for a look, very busy and talking to the consultants they were saying it had been busy all day. My family home is on the red route so we knew we would be affected in some shape or form but there were a lot of worried people who were affected by the others routes who would never have given the n11 a second thought.
Not really much info on the details as its only basic design so whenever the preferred route is released is when the real work(and concern) will begin.
Personally from a road/infrastructure nerd point of view I'd like to see them go with the cyan into blue route, de trunk the existing parts and give the villages of Kilmac and Kilpedder back to their inhabitants and it also lets the glen back to nature.
But in reality and my own cynical point of view I think they'll go with red as the other options will create such opposition that they'll turn around and say right, we'll just cut some trees in the Glen as it won't upset so many. Can't see the pink and orange being too welcomed by the residents of Delgany or the their golf club.

https://n11m11.ie/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/265455-ARP-GEN-SWI-DR-CH-001_PC2_Corridor-Options.pdf

marno21

Wow. That's a very impressive level of ambition right there.

Cyan + blue would be wonderful, even blue + pink/orange. Removing Kilmacanogue, Glen of the Downs and the whole Kilpedder area from the N11 with a new offline M11 with proper junctions, no accesses would be fantastic. Bus lanes could be accomodated along the route too which would presumably be limited to 100km/h.

Plan is to have it with ABP by Q2 2021. Could realistically see this under construction within a few years.

Chris_5339762

It'll be red, anything other than an online route through GOTD and that part of Bray will not be accepted.

Whats actually being done with the Bray junction there though?

marno21

Chris_5339762 wrote: »

It'll be red, anything other than an online route through GOTD and that part of Bray will not be accepted.

Whats actually being done with the Bray junction there though?

Cyan route avoids Glen of the Downs entirely. The only issue is where all the traffic that would otherwise join the N11 along that stretch would now have limited N11 access.

hometruths

I agree the cyan route looks brilliant.

Other than taking more trees out of the Glen of the Downs were there other considerations that make existing red route unsuitable? i.e why have they gone to all the trouble of research and producing the potential options, all of which will ruffle a hell of a lot of feathers?

marno21

And we’re off

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/n11-m11-upgrade-options-include-widening-glen-o-the-downs-road-1.4080963