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JRPG general discussion

Retr0gamer

Hmm let's see how a thread like this works.

Anyway for the first post I'd like to let people know that ATB podcast with its host Kat Bailey is back on 1up. The first episode might be Western RPG focused but the podcast is well worth a listen.

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Retr0gamer

I'm enjoying Dragon Quest 1 way more than I thought. I've not much time to play games so I'm playing DQ1 a lot more than DQ11 as it's just so easy to switch on and grind for a bit before bed. I enjoyed it a few years ago as well and it still holds up. It's very basic but also short enough that it doesn't become boring.

megaten

DQ1 is the mobile port I enjoyed the most. It structure is really pick up and play friendly. DQ3 is just a little too complex to casually play on my phone.

Retr0gamer

I heard DQ3 is fantastic.

DQ2 apparently is very difficult and also it's a bit too open and obtuse so you don't know where you are going.

megaten

Retr0gamer wrote: »

DQ2 apparently is very difficult and also it's a bit too open and obtuse so you don't know where you are going.

That's true but the game map is small enough that its not a major issue. I think I only needed to consult an FAQ maybe twice.

Xenji

Retr0gamer wrote: »

I heard DQ3 is fantastic.

DQ2 apparently is very difficult and also it's a bit too open and obtuse so you don't know where you are going.

DQ 2 is not that big of a jump in size, it has about 5 more areas than DQ 1, DQ 3 is the biggest jump in size as it has about 28 areas which would be more than double DQ 2.

Retr0gamer

Thanks, for all the info. I've been hoping to go through DQ2 and 3 and the switch versions seem like the perfect way to do it.

PostWoke

Retr0gamer wrote: »

Eh... it's dripping with anime tropey writing.

It really, really isn't, unless you need to brush up your roman numerals and think I'm referring to XIII. Where's the perverted character who gets a nose bleed around big chested women? Where are the big chested women, like Lulu in X, Freya, Cid in XV or even the half naked ditz Riku from X? The closest we get is maybe Zell's mission to get a hot dog from the cafeteria filling the 'character who's obsessed with food' trope but that would really be stretching it, he doesn't mention food outside of these completely optional and easy to miss scenes. Squall doesn't harp on about personal goals and 'doing his best' despite being the protagonist, he doesn't give a hoot. Even considering the fact it technically features 'academies', there's almost no 'school life' to it, not like Three Houses. XIII, Type 0, and XV are the closest the series has ever come to domestic animu pandering. FF has gone in its' own direction for decades.

If you think FFVIII is 'anime' in its' presentation, I suggest watching some anime to see how different (read:****e) it is.

Retr0gamer wrote: »

It's a god awful story with bad characters and massive leaps in logic.

Again, not at all. In fact, despite the fact the series jumped the shark in the double digits, I can't think of a single 'leap of logic' in the entire series. Bad characters? Let's not kid ourselves into believing any of them are as bad as Kimahri, Seymour, whatever the bad guy in XII is called, any character from XIII, or XV for that matter.

Retr0gamer

Well firstly I wouldn't be comparing FF8 to other FF games in terms of story. Outside of FF Tactics story has never really been the series strong point and there are much better comparisons such as Suikoden 2, Tactics Ogre, Valkyrie Profile etc.

Also you have to remember that anime 20 years ago in 1999 was very different from anime today. It very much follows the anime trope formula of back then and is heavily influenced by Titanic which was a cultural phenomenon in Japan. Although in retrospect Squall is a proto Isekai protagonist.

As for leaps of logic, take your pick. Seifer's reason for going bad?? Can't even remember. Time Compression making no sense. The whole Laguna sequences never having a pay off. The Lunar Cry nonsense. And the infamous facepalm inducing orphanage scene.

Plenty of the characters in FF8 are cardboard cut outs or typical anime tropes from the late 90s. The villains are poorly explained and with the final two appearing out of the blue, a FF trope that is so prevalent I feel the FF9 final boss was a piss take of. The only interesting characters are Edea and Quistis and Edea just peters out with no pay off and Quistis gets forgotten about after taking Squall to T-Rex infested make out point.

In it's defense it's still a fun rollercoaster ride that despite it's issues does enhance the game with its ridiculous bombast. But is it a good story? God no.

AlmightyCushion

Retr0gamer wrote: »

Well firstly I wouldn't be comparing FF8 to other FF games in terms of story. Outside of FF Tactics story has never really been the series strong point and there are much better comparisons such as Suikoden 2, Tactics Ogre, Valkyrie Profile etc.

Also you have to remember that anime 20 years ago in 1999 was very different from anime today. It very much follows the anime trope formula of back then and is heavily influenced by Titanic which was a cultural phenomenon in Japan. Although in retrospect Squall is a proto Isekai protagonist.

As for leaps of logic, take your pick. Seifer's reason for going bad?? Can't even remember. Time Compression making no sense. The whole Laguna sequences never having a pay off. The Lunar Cry nonsense. And the infamous facepalm inducing orphanage scene.

Plenty of the characters in FF8 are cardboard cut outs or typical anime tropes from the late 90s. The villains are poorly explained and with the final two appearing out of the blue, a FF trope that is so prevalent I feel the FF9 final boss was a piss take of. The only interesting characters are Edea and Quistis and Edea just peters out with no pay off and Quistis gets forgotten about after taking Squall to T-Rex infested make out point.

In it's defense it's still a fun rollercoaster ride that despite it's issues does enhance the game with its ridiculous bombast. But is it a good story? God no.

I can't believe I'm defending parts of FF8's story. I feel dirty. I agree the story is ridiculous and there are lots of leaps of logic (there are a few scenes where the playable characters should have died but nope, they're fine for some reason that won't be explained).

Seifer didn't turn bad, he was always bad. At the orphanage he was a complete dick and bullied every one else. At Balamb garden he was also a complete dick. He openly defies orders, mocked his superiors and ridicules SeeD. He also gets incredibly pissed off when he doesn't get made a SeeD. It doesn't seem like much of a stretch to get him to turn against SeeD.

The Laguna scenes are linked in with Ellone and Squall. I don't know what you mean by it having no payoff but it's explained why they happened and how Laguna fits in to the story. It has a payoff.

Edea's story, once again I don't know why you say it has no payoff. It's part of the story and it comes to a conclusion. How is there no payoff?

skerry

Could I be so bold as to ask for spoiler tags on the more critical parts of the FF games being discussed? I know a lot on here have probably finished them ten times over but I'm currently only starting my journey through the FF series as I never seemed to have the consoles they were released on and would prefer to find out these things for myself.

PostWoke

Retr0gamer wrote: »

Well firstly I wouldn't be comparing FF8 to other FF games in terms of story. Outside of FF Tactics story has never really been the series strong point and there are much better comparisons such as Suikoden 2, Tactics Ogre, Valkyrie Profile etc.

...

...

... Final Fantasy games are literally sold on their stories and characters.

Retr0gamer wrote: »

Also you have to remember that anime 20 years ago in 1999 was very different from anime today. It very much follows the anime trope formula of back

Anime was decent back then because it wasn't that tropey.

Retr0gamer wrote: »

As for leaps of logic, take your pick. Seifer's reason for going bad?? Can't even remember.

I'll help you out. Maybe you used too many GF's. He was always an asshole. He was shown as a child being an asshole. Lots of people born that way.

Retr0gamer wrote: »

Time Compression making no sense.

It's an antagonists' mcguffin. Antagonist wants everyone dead. Only she can survive a dimensional collapse like that.

Retr0gamer wrote: »

The whole Laguna sequences never having a pay off.

We find him as literal president of the most technologically advanced city in the world. Not in a relationship, for reasons we came to fully understand.

Retr0gamer wrote: »

The Lunar Cry nonsense.

Events. They happen. It was cool to go to space.

Retr0gamer wrote: »

And the infamous facepalm inducing orphanage scene.

X's cringeworthy and pointless wedding. Ashe not being that involved in FFXII despite the ramifications of the opening cutscene. Anything in FFXIII. And don't get me started on XV's storytelling.

Retr0gamer wrote: »

Plenty of the characters in FF8 are cardboard cut outs or typical anime tropes from the late 90s.

Nah. But of course inspiration is not a bad thing. Let's not pretend Tidus, Yuna, Wakka, anyone from XV, are some mega unique genre shake-up. We could also assign our own beliefs as to who is inspired by who without it being the reality. :pac:

Retr0gamer wrote: »

The villains are poorly explained and with the final two appearing out of the blue

Ultimecia did not appear out of the blue, and IX is a far more egregious example as you stated. It could be argued that having an antagonist be constantly present but boring and ineffective is worse. Ardyn was supposed to be the 'new sephiroth', lmao.

Retr0gamer wrote: »

But is it a good story? God no.

You seem to have very unique tastes. Good for you. There's always got to be a few eh? :pac:

Retr0gamer

Going to be doing a lot of agreeing with you here but have some caveats.

AlmightyCushion wrote: »

Seifer didn't turn bad, he was always bad. At the orphanage he was a complete dick and bullied every one else. At Balamb garden he was also a complete dick. He openly defies orders, mocked his superiors and ridicules SeeD. He also gets incredibly pissed off when he doesn't get made a SeeD. It doesn't seem like much of a stretch to get him to turn against SeeD.

I can't argue with you there, it's that Squall isn't bad or evil, he is just a bellend…. well ok he did kick a dog. But it just rings a little hollow to me that this guy is a twat so decides to just be a bad guy for ****s and giggles. It's just a bit silly

AlmightyCushion wrote: »

The Laguna scenes are linked in with Ellone and Squall. I don't know what you mean by it having no payoff but it's explained why they happened and how Laguna fits in to the story. It has a payoff.

Again, it ends up tying in with stuff later in the game but by pat off I mean it's not satisfactory. And I'm not the only one that thinks that, the scenario writer has said in interviews that Sakaguchi had loads of stuff planned for Laguna and that whole subplot that just got forgotten about and lost in the rush to get the game finished and never really ended up being satisfactory.

AlmightyCushion wrote: »

Edea's story, once again I don't know why you say it has no payoff. It's part of the story and it comes to a conclusion. How is there no payoff?

Yeah I agree, it's just not a very good one... that orphanage scene is awful

PostWoke wrote: »

Final Fantasy games are literally sold on their stories and characters..

So is Twilight, doesn't mean it's a good story. Popular consensus doesn't normally align with reality, especially when you have the likes of Matsuno creating masterpieces like Tactics Ogre.

PostWoke wrote: »

Anime was decent back then because it wasn't that tropey.

Rose tinted glasses. Plenty of god awful tropey stuff back then as well.

PostWoke wrote: »

It's an antagonists' mcguffin. Antagonist wants everyone dead. Only she can survive a dimensional collapse like that.

Well that's just bad writing. How many JRPG antagonists have the same goal which when you think about it makes absolutely no sense. The only time it actually worked was with Kefka in FF6 who was so insane that such an insane plan actually made sense for him. I always find it weird that all powerful and wise beings have such dumb end goals.

Although after today with Trump proclaiming that he has great and unmatched wisdom then it's starting to make a much scarier bit of sense.

PostWoke wrote: »

X's cringeworthy and pointless wedding. Ashe not being that involved in FFXII despite the ramifications of the opening cutscene. Anything in FFXIII. And don't get me started on XV's storytelling.

Nah. But of course inspiration is not a bad thing. Let's not pretend Tidus, Yuna, Wakka, anyone from XV, are some mega unique genre shake-up. We could also assign our own beliefs as to who is inspired by who without it being the reality. :pac:.

Again I'm not making comparisons to Final Fantasy games which as you mention all have their problems. They are far from high watermarks of videogame writing. Lets not compare something that's bad with something that is worse.

PostWoke wrote: »

Ultimecia did not appear out of the blue, and IX is a far more egregious example as you stated. It could be argued that having an antagonist be constantly present but boring and ineffective is worse. Ardyn was supposed to be the 'new sephiroth', lmao.

Yeah FF9's antagonist was pulled out of their ass at the last minute but Ultimecia kind just appeared in the last part of the story. Little bit more backstory.

Did make for an amazing final dungeon.

PostWoke wrote: »

You seem to have very unique tastes. Good for you. There's always got to be a few eh? :pac:

There's plenty of people that think the story isn't so hot.

But as I said, it doesn't make it a bad game, far from it.

PostWoke

Retr0gamer wrote: »

So is Twilight, doesn't mean it's a good story.

"Stories are all bad because Twilight bad".- Retr0gamer

The variable you're looking for there is the audience, not the story.

Retr0gamer wrote: »

Rose tinted glasses. Plenty of god awful tropey stuff back then as well.

Not really relevant to the argument that FFVIII is in no way whatsoever 'anime'. In particular when you look at XIII, XV, and Type 0 to compare.

Retr0gamer wrote: »

Well that's just bad writing. How many JRPG antagonists have the same goal which when you think about it makes absolutely no sense. The only time it actually worked was with Kefka in FF6 who was so insane that such an insane plan actually made sense for him. I always find it weird that all powerful and wise beings have such dumb end goals.

Kefka was a **** clown somehow working for a military. Now there's a badly fleshed out character in a game if ever I saw one. His character badly needed a few more scenes of him by himself monologuing so the audience could understand his motivations. He's like Sephiroth without the considerable time spent showing Sephiroth's past and realizations of his origins.

No one is comparing Ultimecia to Sephiroth, but the issue is that she is unknowable, apart from what Edea knew of her and could relay. She literally lives at the edge of time. It would be intellectually dishonest to claim there's elements of lovecraftian cosmic horror there, but if you look at it from that perspective it might explain why she wasn't tap dancing in and out of the game for four or five boss battles over the course of the game. She's not a pokemon rival. Would it have been better if Edea had been a two dimensional 'cardboard cutout' as you claim FFVIII's characters are? Well, since you argue against that, I assume you would say no. She wasn't just an evil antagonist. She was the wife of the protagonist's mentor (also not a 'cardboard cut-out), she was fighting this affliction, she got this affliction protecting her children, etc. FFVIII doesn't suffer from 'cardboard cutout' characters, again, I could list off dozens of other FF characters that fill that description. FFVII's Cid comes straight to mind, a very popular character. Not every character has to be a Murakami creation because then the story is a mess with no focus.

Retr0gamer wrote: »

Yeah FF9's antagonist was pulled out of their ass at the last minute but Ultimecia kind just appeared in the last part of the story. Little bit more backstory.

Nah from what I remember from my playthrough last year she was mentioned as far back as Disc 2/4.

Retr0gamer wrote: »

There's plenty of people that think the story isn't so hot.

Before the 'orphanage bad' meme propagated online (when there was an online) this wasn't the case. Everyone just regurgitates that now. Everything with the academies, the power struggles between the two and even within Balamb, Deling, the witches and SeeD's mission are great, grounding the fantasy setting, and haven't really been beaten in that department since.

skerry

Had a few tries at getting 0:00 time in the Chocobo trainer race in FFX and for the good of my Switch I can safely say I wont be getting Tidus's celestial weapon ever. Who ever designed the hit boxes in that mini game needs a serious kick up the hole

Retr0gamer

Welcome to the ****ty ff10 post game.

skerry

Retr0gamer wrote: »

Welcome to the ****ty ff10 post game.

I'm just gonna try beat the last 2 bosses without getting the celestial weapons. Hopefully that's possible cos there is no way I'm going through the pain of those mini games. Really enjoying the game but some baffling design choices, even for back then. Weapons locked behind crappily designed mini games and the absolute dread of losing a boss battle, not because your gonna have to fight the boss again but because you'll have to endure the same 10 minutes cut scene you've just watched just to get to fight him again.

Retr0gamer

I had a lot of trouble with the last boss when I didn't do levelling up

Evade

There's a trick to the last super boss in FFX a little easier.

Auto-X-Potion. Once you can survive his hits with some HP having auto potion armour and no regular or hi-potions in you inventory means every time you get hit you use an X-potion to recover all you HP.

skerry

Finished FF X, first time completing a Final Fantasy game. Great game apart from some minor annoyances mentioned a few posts back. Bought FF IX to celebrate

Beat last boss first time but I had done about an hours grinding to unlock double cast and Ultima on Yuna and Lulu which got me through the fight.

Probably take a break from FF and maybe move onto Dragon Quest 11 or Astral Chain now.

Retr0gamer

Final thoughts on it?

skerry

Retr0gamer wrote: »

Final thoughts on it?

Enjoyed it overall, haven't played anything else since I got it so it must have done something right. For an 18 year old game its held up really well, remaster helps obviously but shiny new graphics only go so far if the story and gameplay aren't enjoyable.

Characters are grand, nothing spectacular, and story was decent. Battle system is what I enjoyed most though. My previous FF experience is 15, 7 and about an hour of 13 (finished none of these though) and I enjoyed the true turn based battles in X more than the ATB system, maybe I'm, just not used to the ATB thing.

Definitely some frustrations like the ridiculous Chocobo race and locking the main characters celestial weapon behind something so lame, it just seemed super lazy. Wouldn't mind the fact the weapon was locked behind a difficult mini game if it was actually fair and well designed but it most definitely wasn't. Also the inability to skip cutscenes is a bit of a mad one.

Only played one game of Blitzball, signed players as I went along but never got back to it and didn't feel the need to.
Didn't bother with the end game stuff like Dark Aeons or Monster Arena and just stuck to the main story. Overall really enjoyed it though.

I've amassed a decent collection of FF games over the last while (7, 9, 10, 12, 13 and 15) so I feel somewhat justified in those purchases now that I've one finished. Will take a break and get back to another one in a few weeks. Any suggestions on which of the above to tackle next?

Retr0gamer

I find FFX one of the weaker games in the series (not that it's bad mind) so you'll probably enjoy others in the series.

I never really enjoyed the ATB system either, it's only ever really worked in FF4 where a lot of bosses really worked with the time based systems and future FF's have ignored this or just flat out copied the FF4 boss designs. I don't think it's a good system and FF excels more in the character building outside of the combat.

The FFX post game feels really rushed. Most RPGs post game challenges you with your knowledge of the battle system then rewards you while FFX locks everything behind stupid minigames that have nothing to do with the core gameplay.

Of the ones you listed my favourite would be 9. It's just got bags of charm although mechanically it's one of the simpler games. FF12 might also be a good one to mess with, the Zodiac edition in the remake is a massive improvement on the original release and its a good introduction to the job system that appears in many FF games and is the series best innovation (although the absolute pinnacle of the job system is FF Tactics, with FFV close behind).

ZiabR

Started Battle Chasers: Nightwar at the weekend. Its actually quite good. Like the combat and it looks great. Its on Games Pass at the moment, I would recommend giving it a shot.

skerry

Retr0gamer wrote: »

I find FFX one of the weaker games in the series (not that it's bad mind) so you'll probably enjoy others in the series.

I never really enjoyed the ATB system either, it's only ever really worked in FF4 where a lot of bosses really worked with the time based systems and future FF's have ignored this or just flat out copied the FF4 boss designs. I don't think it's a good system and FF excels more in the character building outside of the combat.

The FFX post game feels really rushed. Most RPGs post game challenges you with your knowledge of the battle system then rewards you while FFX locks everything behind stupid minigames that have nothing to do with the core gameplay.

Of the ones you listed my favourite would be 9. It's just got bags of charm although mechanically it's one of the simpler games. FF12 might also be a good one to mess with, the Zodiac edition in the remake is a massive improvement on the original release and its a good introduction to the job system that appears in many FF games and is the series best innovation (although the absolute pinnacle of the job system is FF Tactics, with FFV close behind).

I'll see how X holds up now after I've finished a couple more and I actually have a decent comparison for the series. I have The Zodiac Age so might look at that next. Might save 9 to tip away with on Handheld on the Switch, it seems like the type of game that's better suited to that.
I had a Gameboy Advance I loaned to a friend a long time ago and never got back. I must try get it back to see if I can get my hands on Tactics and 6, although I'd imagine their not cheap.

Retr0gamer

Tactics isn't on Gameboy Advance. FF Tactics Advance 1 and 2 are but.... they aren't great.

The original PS1 Tactics is the game to go for and the best way to play that is the PSP or Android version as they have a translation that isn't badly translated gibberish.

FF4-6 are on GBA. It's a good version of 6 on there, just the music is much weaker than the SNES version. FF4 is good as well but I prefer the PSP version which is the definitive version of that game. The DS/PC version is great as well but it's more a remix of the original game with extra difficulty.

PostWoke

skerry wrote: »

Finished FF X, first time completing a Final Fantasy game. Great game apart from some minor annoyances mentioned a few posts back. Bought FF IX to celebrate

Going from awful to one of the best is the best favour you could've done yourself. IX recently got patched on Switch to fix a music bug too. Enjoy.

Still using my custom firmware DSi; there's so many titles on it (and the 3DS) that I moved on to the next thing when they came out without enjoying everything it has to offer. DSi's screen is more saturated than the 3DS too. So many good JRPGs and hidden gems. Just finished Apollo Ace Attorney (one of the worst in the series and a serious slog) and trying to decide on Chrono Trigger for the first time or the dozen other equally good choices.

megaten

All this FFX slander is atrocious.

Been playing Rune Factory 4 on and off for two years now. Finally activated the event that starts the third arc which the developers inexplicably tied to their random event system.

PostWoke wrote: »

Still using my custom firmware DSi; there's so many titles on it (and the 3DS) that I moved on to the next thing when they came out without enjoying everything it has to offer. DSi's screen is more saturated than the 3DS too. So many good JRPGs and hidden gems. Just finished Apollo Ace Attorney (one of the worst in the series and a serious slog) and trying to decide on Chrono Trigger for the first time or the dozen other equally good choices.

Apollo justice despite its problems is still better than the ho-hum tepidness of the 3ds games. I can't forgive Spirit of Justice for walking back on how Ema turned out as an adult.

I've been seriously considering getting a DSi XL for all the games I missed out the first time round.

Evade

I never get the love for FFIX, I've tied it a few times and thought it was pretty boring.

megaten

I'd be interested in the modern port of FFIX. The characters are great but the loading times kill the pace of the game.

Retr0gamer

I will safely say that everyone is wrong when they talk about what the best game system of all time is because they always forget the true best game system of all time, the DS.

Seriously though, it really is for me the best games system ever made. Just so many gems on it and such a vast and wildly diverse selection of games on it. It's a real shame that for the vast majority of videogame publications don't even acknowledge that handheld gaming exists let alone should be celebrated.