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The Dominance of Dublin GAA Mod warning post#1

seligehgit

Discussion of all matters relating to this contentious subject is welcome and the potential implications of same.This thread is solely for this purpose.

There appears to be a perception that the moderators are attempting to shut down discussion of this topic and direct same off to a low traffic stickied thread.Nothing could be further from the truth.Our sole motive was to confine discussion to a single thread and prevent cross thread posting which was adversely affecting the enjoyment of fellow posters.

Can we please keep posts civil and constructive in nature.

The Changes in the GAA-super thread is now for discussion of all other suggested reforms not relating to Dublin GAA.

Extra Mod Warning:
Right, a separate warning to both sides in this debate:
Firstly, any more mentioning of "financial doping" or any intimation that rules have been broken by Dublin or that Dublin have cheated are banned from now on. You can debate the issue of the funding that Dublin have received without resorting to that. There is zero evidence of it and posting about it will be considered trolling from here on in.

Secondly, this topic is, like it or not, a big talking point in gaelic football at the moment. You are more than welcome to argue your point, but posting in this thread to simply mock those on the other side or complaining about the topic is known as thread spoiling and is specifically banned in the charter (see point 8 here). No one is forcing you to click on this thread and no one is forcing you to post in it. If you don't like the topic, then don't post. It's as simple as that.

This thread is here so that all the discussion is in one place and it won't filter into other threads. This makes it easier to ignore for posters who don't really want to be involved in it. As a result, we haven't really been moderating it as severely as other threads. However, a number of posts recently from both sides are sailing too close to the wind and getting borderline personal. So please take a minute before you hit submit to ensure that your post won't fall foul of the rules. We'll have no hesitation in issuing cards and/or threadbans to posters who fail to heed this warning.

Please report any posts that you feel break the rules.

Any questions, please feel free to PM the mods.

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ArielAtom

RoyalCelt wrote: »

Codswallop. If Kildare or meath gaa got the money Dublin have we wouldn't have fallen so much. This revisionist history about meath and Kildare needs to stop. How often did either county even win 2 Leinsters in a row? Neither dominated the province in recent history.

1931 is the last time Kildare did it. So what Grace did they fall from exactly? They've never dominated the province.

1918 the last time wexford won 2 in a row.
1982 for Ofally.
1910 for Louth.
1938 for Laois

Meath are the most recent and that was 1991. So this idea that Meath and Kildare dominated dublin's lean period in the 90's and 00's isn't true. If Dublin weren't competing in Leinster it was left to actual counties to compete we'd see a big spread of titles. There's no chance Kildare and Meath would dominate. Other counties like Laois and Longford would raise their game big time with realistic honors at stake.

Meath and Kildare wouldn't have the expertise to turn their panels into emotionless robots that keep winning every year like it means nothing to them. I wonder what will happen first, Dublin moved out of leinster or the province scrapped. I can safely say no county in Leinster will ever beat Dublin again. In 10 years the best of leinster will struggled to get within 20.

And we'll be told it's up to the rest to get their house in order. Galway were moved out of Connaught in hurling so the blue print is there.

The bitterness in this post just makes it all the more enjoyable. Emotionless robots, sure ye can’t turn them into footballers FFS&#55357;&#56834;

gormdubhgorm

ArielAtom wrote: »

The bitterness in this post just makes it all the more enjoyable. Emotionless robots, sure ye can’t turn them into footballers FFS��

The irony is that 'robots' post was made by a Meath supporter is not lost on me.
Meath a county who used to have 'footballers' - Giles - Ollie Murphy, Stafford, Flynn, O'Rourke, Geraghty
Now they seem to only produce strong physical backs they seem to severely lack the skillful intelligent forwards/midfielders (unlike Dublin).
The Meath forward line seems completely dependent on one big forward Newman.
Even in midfield Menton is just a strong horse of man who breaks through lines.
They are trying to talk up players like young Shane Walsh and Ethan Devine in the forwards as thier next hopes - that is how desperate thier situation has become.

Meanwhile Dublin have Howard, Scullly, McCarthy, Kilkenny, Con O'Callaghan, Mannion, Paddy Andrews, Cian O'Sullivan, Fenton etc all Rolls Royce players.

Fellas who play with thier head up.

Not to mention Jack Mc who is only a little fella but integral to the Dublin style skill, pace , panache, intelligence and athleticism.

Cluxton a fella who revolutionised the goalkeeping role in Gaelic football.

Dublin also have the veterans Brogan and Connolly - both skillful players.
Brogan a man who humbly accepted that he would not take his place on the team bus because of Connolly. Yet he still wants to stay going.
Connolly a man who changed his game to get a place as sub for Dublin dropping deep into midfield holding up the ball dictating play.

Remember this pass ?

You can't teach that you either have it or you don't.

Those who think Dublin are merely 'robots' only see what they want to see.

Maybe Dublin's courageous skillful blitz of Mayo when under pressure in the SF passed those people by?

Maybe the courage/tactical acumen of Dublin pressing with 14 men against Kerry in the drawn game was not seen by those people?

Maybe they have forgotten Dublin's win against Tyrone in the 2018 final? The Tyrone players just sat back and Dublin intelligently worked the ball in scoring positions with very few wides. This was a Tyrone team set up to stop Dublin rather than create remember?

Happyilylost

gormdubhgorm wrote:

Remember this pass ?

I wouldn't overly praise that pass.... Connolly said he was aiming for COC.

blanch152

Happyilylost wrote: »

I wouldn't overly praise that pass.... Connolly said he was aiming for COC.

Did he? You have a link?

Happyilylost

blanch152 wrote:

Did he? You have a link?

I do. Thanks for asking.

blanch152

Happyilylost wrote: »

I do. Thanks for asking.

Great, you might post it, because I never heard Connolly say that.

RoyalCelt

The 6 in a row starts next year with a trouncing of Westmeath.

ArielAtom

RoyalCelt wrote: »

The 6 in a row starts next year with a trouncing of Westmeath.

Hopefully.

beggars_bush

RoyalCelt wrote: »

The 6 in a row starts next year with a trouncing of Westmeath.

Will they play it at a neutral venue again?

ArielAtom

beggars_bush wrote: »

Will they play it at a neutral venue again?

You never know.

Bonniedog

beggars_bush wrote: »

Will they play it at a neutral venue again?

It's same as Kerry v anyone other than Cork in Munster, although Westmeath have beaten Dublin twice in 100 years. Can't say same for Clare. Limerick or Waterford.

beggars_bush

Bonniedog wrote: »

It's same as Kerry v anyone other than Cork in Munster, although Westmeath have beaten Dublin twice in 100 years. Can't say same for Clare. Limerick or Waterford.

When did Clare play Dublin? Kerry have often played in Ennis. Same for Limerick and Waterford.

Bonniedog

When did Kerry play Westmeath? Dublin have often played in Mullingar,

Point is that over 135 years Dublin could have played Westmeath in Mullingar or Milan, or Kerry played Clare in Ennis or Enfield.

Would have made absolutely no difference, whatsoever on almost 99% of those occasions.

gormdubhgorm

beggars_bush wrote: »

Will they play it at a neutral venue again?

I think you will find your answer to your conundrum that you are going around in circles with on this page (which you also engaged in)

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=111298323

It would most likely be Portlaoise if the Leinster council deem it a game where there would be not much interest - like Carlow 2017 , Wicklow 2018, Louth 2019.
Or maybe even in Nowlan park where Dublin played Laois 2018.
Maybe you have forgotten these posts in your excitement while reading about Dublin GAA just a number of pages later?
It is great you have such an interest in Dublin GAA though - which proves that even a non-Dub like you can develop thier interest in the GAA through Dublin - it shows what a great job Dublin are doing for the growth of the games.

I assume you prefer going to league games as it gives you more of an opportunity to see the Dubs as a neutral fan?
Personally I would agree with this as the league is a great competition.
The championship would be much better if it was home and away.

I assume a neutral fan like you who clearly admires Dublin GAA is also concerned about the unfairness of the Dublin hurlers being forced to play home games in CP in the past? Giving them a clear disadvantage, as they prefer Parnell Park.
As a follower and person with a deep interest in Dublin GAA like yourself, you may be already aware of it.

It is understandable such a person with strong interest in the GAA (and Dublin GAA in particular) should be concerned about venue.
You are probably also a strong club man who is tired of trips to Croke Park and likes to get around in the provincial grounds following Dublin to get to see more of the grassroots of the GAA.
As a neutral GAA fan it is great to see. Fair play to you.

ToBeFrank123

Bonniedog wrote: »

It's same as Kerry v anyone other than Cork in Munster, although Westmeath have beaten Dublin twice in 100 years. Can't say same for Clare. Limerick or Waterford.

You have very little understanding of GAA from what I can see.

It has been explained to you countless times Munster is a hurling province apart from Kerry and parts of Cork and even most of those parts are dual areas.

gormdubhgorm

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

You have very little understanding of GAA from what I can see.

It has been explained to you countless times Munster is a hurling province apart from Kerry and parts of Cork and even most of those parts are dual areas.

Does that not say more about the problem of the championship structure rather than being a 'Dublin problem'?
The team who is most successful in Gaelic football history is located in a hurling province.

gormdubhgorm

beggars_bush wrote: »

How many clubs in Tallaght?

Five Tallaght clubs, but none of the five have a player on the Dublin senior football squad - population approx 80k
Finglas population approx 40k one club no player on Dublin football senior squad
Clondalkin population approx 50k one club (catchment area 100k) no player on Dublin football senior squad.
It is good that you are showing concern about the well-being of Dublin football in working class West Dublin - which is a hotbed of soccer.

bruschi

to somewhat change the discussion a slight bit, I think what would could be Dublins downfall is the success of the clubs and the fact that their coverage is far too large. One club for thousands of members with ultimately only one senior team is hard to sustain. And it will come to a stage where the club will start becoming bigger than the county so to speak. Take Ballymun for example and the grumblings after their last defeat. All the county players on their team, but failing at club level. There are plenty of stories throughout Ireland where you have a club manager wanting success for his club over players going off to county and it could happen in Dublin too where the competition for places on a club team will become so fierce that the club will take precedence over county.

Now obviously, county takes priority when going well, but when they have done it all, do players then feel they can afford to take a step back and do it for the club instead. So ultimately, it could be a case of Dublin eating itself from the inside out. When the club competition is so much harder and tougher, it will be a pinnacle tournament to win. Plus it is only so long that you can keep so many club players going but with no guarantee of top level games, will players continue to accept playing at lower levels in B or C teams when they would make A teams elsewhere?

Again, there is no criticism there, but I do think Dublin would be better served at club level to have more clubs established. The success of Castleknock shows that it can be done, and even other clubs like Realt Dearg setting up as a hurling only club for essentially exiles but expanding so much that they have multiple teams now. There are large areas of Dublin where people are left with a shortage of clubs. Its very hard to either split a club or start a new one in an area with a club with history, but ultimately, it would be for the better overall of Dublin if they did so.

Easy to say from the outside obviously, but realistically, it makes sense.

gormdubhgorm

bruschi wrote: »

to somewhat change the discussion a slight bit, I think what would could be Dublins downfall is the success of the clubs and the fact that their coverage is far too large. One club for thousands of members with ultimately only one senior team is hard to sustain. And it will come to a stage where the club will start becoming bigger than the county so to speak. Take Ballymun for example and the grumblings after their last defeat. All the county players on their team, but failing at club level. There are plenty of stories throughout Ireland where you have a club manager wanting success for his club over players going off to county and it could happen in Dublin too where the competition for places on a club team will become so fierce that the club will take precedence over county.

Now obviously, county takes priority when going well, but when they have done it all, do players then feel they can afford to take a step back and do it for the club instead. So ultimately, it could be a case of Dublin eating itself from the inside out. When the club competition is so much harder and tougher, it will be a pinnacle tournament to win. Plus it is only so long that you can keep so many club players going but with no guarantee of top level games, will players continue to accept playing at lower levels in B or C teams when they would make A teams elsewhere?

Again, there is no criticism there, but I do think Dublin would be better served at club level to have more clubs established. The success of Castleknock shows that it can be done, and even other clubs like Realt Dearg setting up as a hurling only club for essentially exiles but expanding so much that they have multiple teams now. There are large areas of Dublin where people are left with a shortage of clubs. Its very hard to either split a club or start a new one in an area with a club with history, but ultimately, it would be for the better overall of Dublin if they did so.

Easy to say from the outside obviously, but realistically, it makes sense.

They are trying to get more clubs in Dublin.
But there is a battle for land as was seen with the Na Fianna v Metro North episode.

I think you are on to something though the Ballymun situation will be the real test of players commitment to inter-county. After all the GAA is founded on the notion of the club being more meaningful for players.

Personally I think the club competition will end up being expanded and will get a status above inter-county level. The club game has already won the battle against the railway-cup. It will take time but I think the club game will win the battle against inter-county aswell. Already many of those from weaker counties, prefer to play for thier club and not bother playing county - that is the opposite end of scale of Ballymun's problem.

salmocab

One of the reasons Soccer hasn’t eaten up everything in Dublin is the fact that it is crammed with tiny clubs and no facilities in most of them, its badly run with people setting up clubs on a whim. GAA could certainly stand to have quite a few more clubs in the county but the costs of getting facilities in the most of the county would be prohibitive. There is a shortage of council pitches with some of the big clubs using pitches spread over several miles.

odyssey06

bruschi wrote: »

Plus it is only so long that you can keep so many club players going but with no guarantee of top level games, will players continue to accept playing at lower levels in B or C teams when they would make A teams elsewhere?

A lot of players are less concerned about B or C than they are about just playing the game.
A large club's B team might be playing in same competition as a smaller club's A team... would it really make a big difference to those players?

I wonder if it might make sense to slice and dice the playing pool in a different way... an U23 league, an over 30s league for example.

blanch152

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

You have very little understanding of GAA from what I can see.

It has been explained to you countless times Munster is a hurling province apart from Kerry and parts of Cork and even most of those parts are dual areas.

Correct, and that has meant that there is an institutional advantage for Kerry built in to the Championship structure for over 100 years. Time to split them.

Realt Dearg Sec

bruschi wrote: »

The success of Castleknock shows that it can be done, and even other clubs like Realt Dearg setting up as a hurling only club for essentially exiles but expanding so much that they have multiple teams now.

Just on this as we got a mention, I went to the dressing room after a match against Castleknock once when we lost to them in our early days and said to them they were a model of what is possible for a young club. The progress they made in their first ten years was phenomenal. We've progressed hugely in our first ten as well, now fielding three teams including at Junior A where we made a semi final.

However the broader point that the major clubs are too big is definitely true. The catchment areas and populations for massive clubs like Boden and Crokes etc is completely counterproductive. But when a new club gets set up, these guys go into lockdown to protect what they have, such as the farcical way our club was dealt with in seeking use of a DCC pitch in Ringsend. The reality is that having super clubs like this isn't the best way to foster the sport in a big city, you need to have more small clubs fielding teams at various levels, especially junior, rather than a situation where big clubs have five or six adult teams, and the lower ones are basically full of players with very limited interest or attachment to it, and who can and do routinely draw on players from their higher up teams to pull out wins when necessary. I think the future for the GAA in Dublin will always be defined by the big clubs, but there will be a proliferation of small junior clubs around the county in the coming years, given the success of teams like Ranelagh Gaels and ourselves.

odyssey06

Realt Dearg Sec wrote: »

However the broader point that the major clubs are too big is definitely true. The catchment areas and populations for massive clubs like Boden and Crokes etc is completely counterproductive. But when a new club gets set up, these guys go into lockdown to protect what they have, such as the farcical way our club was dealt with in seeking use of a DCC pitch in Ringsend. The reality is that having super clubs like this isn't the best way to foster the sport in a big city, you need to have more small clubs fielding teams at various levels, especially junior, rather than a situation where big clubs have five or six adult teams, and the lower ones are basically full of players with very limited interest or attachment to it, and who can and do routinely draw on players from their higher up teams to pull out wins when necessary. I think the future for the GAA in Dublin will always be defined by the big clubs, but there will be a proliferation of small junior clubs around the county in the coming years, given the success of teams like Ranelagh Gaels and ourselves.

Those are interesting points, but are the superclubs better at fostering juvenile participation, being able to field teams at all age levels, provide coaching etc?
But that does lead to an overload of adult players who may not feel a connection to the club anymore. Hmm.
Whereas smaller clubs may struggle at juvenile but can pull together a senior team as they have a bigger spread of ages to select from; and so that senior team has a sense of camaraderie.
Just throwing that out for discussion.

bruschi

odyssey06 wrote: »

Those are interesting points, but are the superclubs better at fostering juvenile participation, being able to field teams at all age levels, provide coaching etc?
But that does lead to an overload of adult players who may not feel a connection to the club anymore. Hmm.
Whereas smaller clubs may struggle at juvenile but can pull together a senior team as they have a bigger spread of ages to select from; and so that senior team has a sense of camaraderie.
Just throwing that out for discussion.

there is no reason I could see at all why a club in Dublin wouldnt be able to field at underage. As the reasons outlined above, existing clubs and land issues are the biggest hindrance, but surely if the sole aim is for more participation, having more clubs makes that challenge more attainable than having one huge club try cover a massive populated area. Considering that Dublin and Cork have similar registered players but vastly different populations, Dublin really is not maximising the population or getting value at increased participation.

Realt Dearg Sec

odyssey06 wrote: »

Those are interesting points, but are the superclubs better at fostering juvenile participation, being able to field teams at all age levels, provide coaching etc?
But that does lead to an overload of adult players who may not feel a connection to the club anymore. Hmm.
Whereas smaller clubs may struggle at juvenile but can pull together a senior team as they have a bigger spread of ages to select from; and so that senior team has a sense of camaraderie.
Just throwing that out for discussion.

I grew up playing in a very big club at home and my experience was that while they have very good structures in place, the large numbers mean that while the best players are identified early the weaker ones gradually become more marginalised, because the resources just aren't there to help everyone. It's not that a smaller club is better resourced, but that they are forced to care about everyone who participates, because numbers are so tight. I certainly didn't feel a sense of connection with my club once I was in my teenage years. If I had played for a small rural club with 16 minor players (like the one that played against my club in a minor county final a few years back) I might have felt differently.

But I think the big clubs would feel very threatened if they thought a small club might start pulling some of those players away, even though they themselves can't really cater to everyone. Certainly when we were fighting for use of a pitch this was one of the reasons that club (I don't use their name anymore) named for not wanting to share.

It's a trade-off though, because as you say, big clubs are way better set up to do things like put coaching structures in place to help players develop into really serious athletes and intercounty players and stuff. But in terms of fostering mass participation the small clubs are beneficial too. I think both are needed, but there is no appetite among the big clubs in Dublin to really encourage teams that they would regard as their competition. It's understandable, and I think the big clubs everywhere would be the same (there is no good reason why there's only three clubs in Kilkenny City for example), but in terms of the future of the sport(s) I think a mix is needed.

Bonniedog

Commiserations on the semi final Realt, Good going to get that far so quickly.

Realt Dearg Sec

Bonniedog wrote: »

Commiserations on the semi final Realt, Good going to get that far so quickly.

Was amazing going, and Fingallians won it out anyway, so no shame in it. Jude's had bet Cuala on the other side of the draw, and we've never had luck against Cuala so would have been a big ask to play Jude's and win. Still, not bad going for a team in their first year at Junior A!

Back on topic...any chance this financial doping might trickle its way to Drimnagh Castle any time soon? We've never gotten a penny from Dublin GAA for anything at all.

RoyalCelt

Bonniedog wrote: »

When did Kerry play Westmeath? Dublin have often played in Mullingar,

Point is that over 135 years Dublin could have played Westmeath in Mullingar or Milan, or Kerry played Clare in Ennis or Enfield.

Would have made absolutely no difference, whatsoever on almost 99% of those occasions.

The difference is Westmeath beating Dublin for just the second time ever promted massive financial packages for Dublin to improve you in all areas. At least we know where teams stood pre financial crisis.

Bonniedog

RoyalCelt wrote: »

The difference is Westmeath beating Dublin for just the second time ever promted massive financial packages for Dublin to improve you in all areas. At least we know where teams stood pre financial crisis.

Relationship between Dublin and Westmeath hasn't changed at all. And I thought the "doping" dates back to 2002? That was before Westmeath beat Dublin.