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Brexit discussion thread XI (Please read OP before posting)

Quin_Dub

This is the eleventh incarnation of our Brexit discussion thread,

Same warnings etc still apply:

As we are approaching the critical end of March October 2019 period, please bear the following in mind before posting:
Insults directed at popular figures are not acceptable in this forum
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An Ciarraioch

Grauniad with more insight into Barnier's reaction:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/oct/02/boris-johnson-unveils-brexit-plan-for-alternative-to-backstop

Sierra Oscar

It's clear EU officials are being cautious around the language they use, but Verhofstadt is injecting some reality into things this evening. I really can't see how these proposals can work.

https://twitter.com/BBCPolitics/status/1179498634443804672

Kermit.de.frog

'Huge Pressure on Dublin to Accept Deal'

According to tomorrow's Telegraph...

Capt'n Midnight

A Shropshire Lad wrote: »

So..... we have gone from 'no border under any circumstances' to two borders. Thats the UK proposal ?

There's also the third border in the Irish Sea between Northern Ireland and the rest of the UK.

See Section 1 C https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/836116/Explanatory_Note_Accessible.pdf

provide for the creation of an all-island regulatory zone on the island of Ireland,
covering not just sanitary and phytosanitary (SPS) and agri-food rules but all
goods, thus eliminating regulatory checks for trade in goods between Northern
Ireland and Ireland

A Shropshire Lad

I would love to know if Johnson really wants a deal or not. I still cant work it out

prawnsambo

A Shropshire Lad wrote: »

I would love to know if Johnson really wants a deal or not. I still cant work it out

I'd say he wouldn't like it if the EU agreed to this one. Or at least his backers wouldn't. Which is the same thing I suppose.

boggerman1

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

'Huge Pressure on Dublin to Accept Deal'

According to tomorrow's Telegraph...

The torygraph.oh well that's us under the bus so

Headshot

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

'Huge Pressure on Dublin to Accept Deal'

According to tomorrow's Telegraph...

Sigh

Why are you even giving that paper any sort of credence/attention. That news paper is gutter garbage and a mass propaganda for brexit and the Tories

Professor Moriarty

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

It's clear EU officials are being cautious around the language they use, but Verhofstadt is injecting some reality into things this evening. I really can't see how these proposals can work.

https://twitter.com/BBCPolitics/status/1179498634443804672

Some of the comments are eye-popping. It fascinates me that people with enough intelligence to read and write can be so stupid.

Headshot

Headshot wrote: »

Sigh

Why are you even giving that paper any sort of credence/attention. That new paper is gutter garbage and a mass propaganda for brexit and the Tories

It's basically Goebbels in paper format

Mr.Nice Guy

So here's the blame game strategy: call the EU 'crazy' if they reject the Tory plan.

https://twitter.com/alexwickham/status/1179492152189079553

https://twitter.com/alexwickham/status/1179493357011263488

https://twitter.com/alexwickham/status/1179494367750438912

https://twitter.com/alexwickham/status/1179494823524491271

So this is the plan from the 'genius' Cummings. Something that we all figured out yonks ago.

Goes to show the response from Juncker and co. has been clever. Don't play their game.

Enzokk

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

If this was in the Telegraph I would pay no heed.

It's in the Guardian tomorrow (again).

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

'Huge Pressure on Dublin to Accept Deal'

According to tomorrow's Telegraph...

I wonder if these are the same sources that were talking about pressure on us to accept the deal yesterday before the proposals was even seen? I think The Guardian seems like it is and I would not be surprised if the Telegraph is talking to the same people again tonight.

I seem to remember that one of the tactics of the UK is to have people in the EU spread information about the pressure being brought on Ireland and I would not be surprised if this is that same briefings. It makes no sense for any other EU country to screw us over, especially if it means they will either force us out of the single market or return violence by bringing back a border.

LeinsterDub

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

'Huge Pressure on Dublin to Accept Deal'

According to tomorrow's Telegraph...

Is that the same pressure as last week, last December or December 2017?

briany

prawnsambo wrote: »

I'd say he wouldn't like it if the EU agreed to this one. Or at least his backers wouldn't.

Who are these backers? I'm not necessarily saying it is or isn't true, but I just think it's unhelpful at this stage. Unhelpful because the accusation is flung right back. Both sides seem to think they're opposed by a shadowy cabal, working behind the scenes to enrich themselves at the expense of the common person. Trouble is that the mutual finger pointing that goes on over this just engenders more bad faith and moves things farther from a consensus.

gooch2k9

briany wrote: »

Who are these backers? I'm not necessarily saying it is or isn't true, but I just think it's unhelpful at this stage. Unhelpful because the accusation is flung right back. Both sides seem to think they're opposed by a shadowy cabal, working behind the scenes to enrich themselves at the expense of the common person. Trouble is that the mutual finger pointing that goes on over this just engenders more bad faith and moves things farther from a consensus.

People like Crispin Odey who made a killing on the referendum result, and have donated towards Johnson's campaigns.

beggars_bush

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Is that the same pressure as last week, last December or December 2017?

As my neighbour used to say, pressure is for tyres

Water John

All in NI with the exception of the DUP are appalled at this UK offer. So it's DOA.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/oct/02/johnsons-new-plan-for-border-disastrous-say-northern-irish-leaders

Kermit.de.frog

Labour MPs want "seal of approval" from Varadkar if they are to back deal according to the Telegraph.

Bizarrely the paper seems to claim that because the DUP backs it - it puts pressure on the Irish government to back it.

These people really don't understand Ireland, do they?

Headshot

Nolan Live is on BBC One NI tonight at 10:40. They will be discussing the UK deal.

It should be fun watch, hopefully the DUP are on it and hopefully they get laid into by the opposition leaders

liamtech

SO i guess the EU are gonna send some heavy's around to strong arm us - its to be expected - BoJos genius deal needs to go through and the EU know it - the mask has slipped!

Any word on the express yet? if the telegraph wanna use this nonsense the Express must be even worse!

'RAF STAND READY TO FORCE THE ISSUE ON DUBLIN'

gooch2k9

Headshot wrote: »

Nolan Live is on BBC One NI tonight at 10:40. They will be discussing the UK deal.

It should be fun watch, hopefully the DUP are on it and hopefully they get laid into by the opposition leaders

At moments like this they tend not to have anyone "available". He'll no doubt have that Bryson lad on spouting nonsense.

It speaks volumes that everyone is against this in NI except the DUP. It's clear to everyone inside the UK and outside that the DUP don't speak for the people of NI.

Mr.Nice Guy

Are there no plans for a mass demonstration in the North or along the border areas? I remember there were protests with mock customs posts a while back.

Surely now is the time to organise a huge demonstration emphasizing that people do not want customs checks.

road_high

Enzokk wrote: »

I wonder if these are the same sources that were talking about pressure on us to accept the deal yesterday before the proposals was even seen? I think The Guardian seems like it is and I would not be surprised if the Telegraph is talking to the same people again tonight.

I seem to remember that one of the tactics of the UK is to have people in the EU spread information about the pressure being brought on Ireland and I would not be surprised if this is that same briefings. It makes no sense for any other EU country to screw us over, especially if it means they will either force us out of the single market or return violence by bringing back a border.

I think they vastly over estimate the importance most of Europe place on Brexit too- it’s basically for a lot of nations whatever works for Ireland they’re fine with and if not they’re not going to compromise EU principles of solidarity and support over the risk of a small % of their overall trade. The English never really “got” what the EU is about politically as they always view everything through their own adversarial prism and take that approach when dealing with us (the EU)

liamtech

Headshot wrote: »

Nolan Live is on BBC One NI tonight at 10:40. They will be discussing the UK deal.

It should be fun watch, hopefully the DUP are on it and hopefully they get laid into by the opposition leaders

It will be interesting to see if the DUP actually send someone on Nolan - he tends to end up with Jim Allister, someone from the Alliance, 2 nationalists (SF+SDLP usually) - the DUP dont fare well on Nolan -

https://twitter.com/keithbelfast/status/834548717168492544?lang=en

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TREKaEGBD_s

Leroy42

Whilst I think there are people out to make money on this, I think it is as a consequence not a cause.

Fundamentally this is all about Tory infighting. Farage saw a gaping hole and jumped into it and started digging.

Its not that Johnson either wants a deal or not, it is about what is the best option for him to be PM, and for others to keep BP/UKIP away from their seat.

Brexit is just the form that worked best. Why bother arguing over hospitals, police, crime, immigration when it can all just be blamed on the EU. And thus the natural extension is to try to leave.

Remember, brexit was never meant to be this. It was merely meant to result in more opt outs for the UK.

Notice the change in language over the past few days. All of a sudden people are being told that retaining the status quo was never an option, changes were always going to happen.

Whilst it is comforting to think that all this craziness is down to a hidden group controlling everything in reality it is simply people being lazy and ignorant and looking for an easy way out.

Jizique

Leroy42 wrote: »

Whilst I think there are people out to make money on this, I think it is as a consequence not a cause.

Fundamentally this is all about Tory infighting. Farage saw a gaping hole and jumped into it and started digging.

Its not that Johnson either wants a deal or not, it is about what is the best option for him to be PM, and for others to keep BP/UKIP away from their seat.

Brexit is just the form that worked best. Why bother arguing over hospitals, police, crime, immigration when it can all just be blamed on the EU. And thus the natural extension is to try to leave.

Remember, brexit was never meant to be this. It was merely meant to result in more opt outs for the UK.

Notice the change in language over the past few days. All of a sudden people are being told that retaining the status quo was never an option, changes were always going to happen.

Whilst it is comforting to think that all this craziness is down to a hidden group controlling everything in reality it is simply people being lazy and ignorant and looking for an easy way out.

Baker finally appears on newsnight to approve

Enzokk

It seems like deja-vu again, the UK has proposed a deal and the only thing that needs to happen is for the EU to sign it. There will be no negotiations on it and no input from the other side, take it or leave it but if you leave it take all the blame.

A couple of tweets that seems to create more problems for the supposed deal for Boris and the pressure that will be on Ireland to accept,

https://twitter.com/tconnellyRTE/status/1179509216580706304?s=20

https://twitter.com/Channel4News/status/1179465166590808064?s=20

So according to the Telegraph it is Varadkar in the way of the deal, but as we can hear the EU Parliament seems to know a bad deal when presented with it. These are not Brexit Party MEPs that are there for a laugh and giggle and to take the cash but politicians who plays the game as well. They can see the trap from a mile away even if the UK thinks they are beings too cool for school right now. So how they think they will get this past the EU is a mystery to me, then again I didn't think people would be stupid enough to vote for Brexit or Trump so I will not underestimate the thinking power of those in charge of our lives.

c.p.w.g.w

On the BBC is it just ignorance, passive aggressive or downright disrespectful that they don't refer to to Leo as Taoiseach?

Jizique

Leroy42 wrote: »

Whilst I think there are people out to make money on this, I think it is as a consequence not a cause.

Fundamentally this is all about Tory infighting. Farage saw a gaping hole and jumped into it and started digging.

Its not that Johnson either wants a deal or not, it is about what is the best option for him to be PM, and for others to keep BP/UKIP away from their seat.

Brexit is just the form that worked best. Why bother arguing over hospitals, police, crime, immigration when it can all just be blamed on the EU. And thus the natural extension is to try to leave.

Remember, brexit was never meant to be this. It was merely meant to result in more opt outs for the UK.

Notice the change in language over the past few days. All of a sudden people are being told that retaining the status quo was never an option, changes were always going to happen.

Whilst it is comforting to think that all this craziness is down to a hidden group controlling everything in reality it is simply people being lazy and ignorant and looking for an easy way out.

Baker finally appears on newsnight to approve

A Dub in Glasgo

The Lib Dems are a laugh

https://twitter.com/LeaskyHT/status/1179418566237536257