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The Sub 4 Support Thread

ewc78

Long time lurker but first time poster here.As the title suggests. A thread for anyone trying to break 4hrs in the Marathon.
I've had two rather unsuccessful Marathons already. Dublin 2014 and Dublin 2016.
I had no business running Dublin 2014 as I'd only finished couch to 5k at the start of that year after never running before. I got roped into it by a charity that I'm involved in and felt I couldn't say no, but I really wasn't ready for it.
I struggled around in just under 5hrs and didn't enjoy any of it.
2016 was a bit better and I was better prepared and my main goal was to enjoy it. I hadn't much of a base going into Marathon training but I did all the training and came home in 4:25 but more importantly for me anyway was I enjoyed the whole experience from start to finish.
I decided there and then at the finish line though that I wasn't going to do or train for another Marathon until I had a decent base behind me. The next Marathon I did I wanted to give it a proper go.
Since the end of Dublin 2016 I've kept a consistent enough milage of between 25-30miles a week. With various tempo runs and intervals thrown in and a long run when I can.
I haven't done any races since apart from park runs( which I know aren't races) but as a measure of progress my 5km time has dropped from 26 minutes and a bit down to 22:04.
My aim is obviously to go sub 4 in the Dublin Marathon this October.
I haven't decided on a training plan yet but have been reading Hanson's Marathon method book recently.
I realise I'm not a fast runner by any stretch of the imagination but with being almost 40, and alot of my time taken up with being self employed and having 3 kids under the age of 6 I feel a sub 4hr would be a good achievement for me personally.
Would be interested in hearing from anyone else hoping to go Sub 4hr for the first time also.
Doesn't have to be just the Dublin Marathon either.
Thanks.

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Bluesquare

I wish it was here already . So over thinking it - I think it will drive me crazy before October.

I know a lot of people who have ran DCM several times who when I asked about course profile and taking it handy for first 7 mile they looked at me very blankly. It’s not hilly they say ,your over analyzing. Maybe I am but I can also see your continuously large positive splits !!

Kellygirl

Bluesquare wrote: »

Good to know - I will adjust it for sure not having run Dublin I was trying to base it on all info I had , the plan isn’t set in stone no where near . It’s just a pace spreadsheet that allows you to play around with paces and takes into account the extra distance you run over the 26.2 miles . I like the idea of a slow start even for 2k. It seems that a 58 min 10k is the way forward - put what combination to get there ?

This website is good for course specific pacebands and you can play away to your hearts content on it. https://findmymarathon.com/pacebandresult.php?race=Dublin%20Marathon

You’ll see if you put in for a conservative start / easy on hills / negative split how it differs between paces for the first 7 miles and later on.

I used this one to create my paceband 2 years ago. Excellent but you have to pay a nominal fee for a 6 month license to use it.
http://www.mymarathonpace.com/

The Black Oil

Singer wrote: »

Doing the first 7 miles at DCM slower than desired pace is essential to running an optimal time. Not only should you be easing into the race and dealing with congestion, but you're also doing the most climbing you'll do on the day. If you're going for sub-4 I'd stick well behind the pacers until after the turn at Castleknock and only then start catching up, also taking it easy on the hills up to Inchicore etc.

Easier said than done, but it works:
https://www.strava.com/activities/1932215237

Can't find it now, but think Fusitive was advocating something similar in the novices thread a while back.

Bluesquare

Kellygirl wrote: »

This website is good for course specific pacebands and you can play away to your hearts content on it. https://findmymarathon.com/pacebandresult.php?race=Dublin%20Marathon

You’ll see if you put in for a conservative start / easy on hills / negative split how it differs between paces for the first 7 miles and later on.

I used this one to create my paceband 2 years ago. Excellent but you have to pay a nominal fee for a 6 month license to use it.
http://www.mymarathonpace.com/

Great fun to be had here! Thanks

skyblue46

The Black Oil wrote: »

Can't find it now, but think Fusitive was advocating something similar in the novices thread a while back.

I don't think it's anything new to hear. It has been hammered home on the novices thread for years. AMK and WW certainly left us in no doubt in 2017. :pac:

skyblue46

I think it's important to remember in all this pacing talk that the fitness you need to run your target time is the most important thing and that training and good taper over the next few weeks are essential. A good pacing strategy will not allow someone who is physically able for a 4:20 marathon to run 3:59. It will however prevent someone capable of slightly sub 4 from damaging their prospects by going out too fast.

Unthought Known

Kellygirl wrote: »

This website is good for course specific pacebands and you can play away to your hearts content on it. https://findmymarathon.com/pacebandresult.php?race=Dublin%20Marathon

You’ll see if you put in for a conservative start / easy on hills / negative split how it differs between paces for the first 7 miles and later on.

I used this one to create my paceband 2 years ago. Excellent but you have to pay a nominal fee for a 6 month license to use it.
http://www.mymarathonpace.com/

Another one you can use to create and print a free version https://paceband.org/en/build/course/marathon-dublin

Kellygirl

Unthought Known wrote: »

Another one you can use to create and print a free version https://paceband.org/en/build/course/marathon-dublin

Thanks for that.

68 lost souls

My training plan this week has me to do the half marathon but I don’t have an entry. Anyone recommend a nice route elsewhere around Dublin where I won’t have to worry about stopping for lights or too many road crossings that I can do a solid effort in and preferably isn’t 10 laps of Marley Park

Dealerz2.0

68 lost souls wrote: »

My training plan this week has me to do the half marathon but I don’t have an entry. Anyone recommend a nice route elsewhere around Dublin where I won’t have to worry about stopping for lights or too many road crossings that I can do a solid effort in and preferably isn’t 10 laps of Marley Park

The paths are still open in Phoenix Park- there are plenty of runners out running and not part of the race itself.

ewc78

For those that have done, or are doing the Meno plan what did you/will you do for this weekends long run. It just states to do 18 miles with 10@MP
Is that a continuous 10 or broken up into intervals?
Was thinking of doing 4 Easy then 10 @MP and 4 easy to finish the 18.
Does it matter?

Btw did you ever have one of those runs where you think you've been only running 20 mins and you look at your watch and an hour has gone by and you feel like your almost floating and it's no effort at all?
Yeah,I had one of those today doing 12 miles.
Great feeling.
I even took in the infamous Roebuck Road and it didn't seem nearly as daunting as it does during the Marathon.

cullenswood

ewc78 wrote: »

For those that have done, or are doing the Meno plan what did you/will you do for this weekends long run. It just states to do 18 miles with 10@MP
Is that a continuous 10 or broken up into intervals?
Was thinking of doing 4 Easy then 10 @MP and 4 easy to finish the 18.
Does it matter?

Last year I didn't run the half, but just took this week as a step back week.. I did mostly easy runs and tagged the weekly mileage back to about 60k. I felt it was right for me at time as the fatigue was building a little and I had a couple of niggles. I was then well able for the next three midweek sessions (where the plan really ramps up) and the two 35kms at the weekend. Completing thsse runs gave me great confidence heading into the race itself.

If I had done the long run I would put the MP stuff at the end of it.

Murph_D

ewc78 wrote: »

For those that have done, or are doing the Meno plan what did you/will you do for this weekends long run. It just states to do 18 miles with 10@MP
Is that a continuous 10 or broken up into intervals?
Was thinking of doing 4 Easy then 10 @MP and 4 easy to finish the 18.
Does it matter?

Btw did you ever have one of those runs where you think you've been only running 20 mins and you look at your watch and an hour has gone by and you feel like your almost floating and it's no effort at all?
Yeah,I had one of those today doing 12 miles.
Great feeling.
I even took in the infamous Roebuck Road and it didn't seem nearly as daunting as it does during the Marathon.

The 10 @ MP should be continuous. I'd do at least 2 easy warmup miles before hitting the pace.

Yep, Roebuck is not daunting at all during training runs. It tends to feel a lot harder during the race, although at least it comes a little earlier than it used to. As a hill it's definitely overrated, but don't underestimate it either.

68 lost souls

Dealerz2.0 wrote: »

The paths are still open in Phoenix Park- there are plenty of runners out running and not part of the race itself.

Yeah bit of a brain fart moment there. I did the route myself on Sunday and was happy out, looks like my sub 4 is aligning well based off yesterday fingers crossed.

ewc78

Very quiet in here, we must be all getting nervous.

Bluesquare

I chat to people outside the boards forum and the outside world have a warped version of marathon prediction times - makes my quest for sub 4 seem doable . I guess it’s these guys who are the basis of the more conservative results based calculators ! I was bored one day on the train and looked at a data sample of finishers at DCM around the 4 hours . It looked like - from casual observation that the majority were certainly not aiming for 3:59:59 . Huge amount of fast starts . Crazy to see.

My current plan is to do first 1k @ 6:00 then 10k circa @ 5:50- and see where this takes me . My half marathon time is not exactly lining up for a sub 4 ( outside of Macmillan) and a sub 4:10 might be more realistic .

thunderdog

I’m a bit late to the sub 4 party here. This year will be my 4th attempt at a sub 4 marathon. I have done the Dub marathon in 2009, 2010 & 2017. All marathons have gone fairly similarly. Do grand up until about Milltown and then fall apart from there. Finish times between 4.08-4.18.

Giving it another go this year as it’s 10 years since my first one. Training went well until I (well my wife!) had a baby 7 weeks ago. Unsurprisingly the training has been tough going since then! Making sure I always get the long runs in but the runs during the week have been a bit hit and miss.

I’d echo the comments here, take it very handy for at least the first half and see how you feel from there. Even though I’m still aiming for a sub 4 this year I’d still be fairly happy if I had a decent race outside of the time I.e. not falling apart at the usual spot.

Hope everyone’s training is going well.

ewc78

thunderdog wrote: »

Hope everyone’s training is going well.

Absolutely wrecked from it all. I wouldn't say its becoming a chore but I'll be glad when this week is over as the plan I'm on starts to taper off from next week.
Did 20 miles yesterday, was supposed to be 22 but I ended up walking the last 2 back to the car.
Another 22 due this weekend and that's it then as far as long runs.
I'm hoping with the taper I'll be ready to go on the day but right now with the way I'm feeling and with how some of my runs are going, like yesterday where I couldn't finish the last 2 miles,I'm not so sure about sub 4.

sibeen99

I’m glad to hear others are feeling wrecked. Some days the thought of doing 10 miles fills me with dread and I wonder how I’ll ever do 26.2. I’m also slightly concerned that there’s still lots of mileage in the p and d taper and I’m afraid I won’t fell rested but I guess the best thing is to trust the plan. There’s also a few v02max sessions left that I’m terrified of! Roll on DCM.

68 lost souls

All was going well after a 1/2 time of 1:52:09 8 days ago, was supposed to do 27km at the weekend and did 0, missed 3 training sessions and counting having picked up a cold. Feeling very anxious about it but hopefully I can back on track if I le things mend rather than push through. Plan is 32km this weekends long run which will be longest training run.

sibeen99

68 lost souls wrote: »

All was going well after a 1/2 time of 1:52:09 8 days ago, was supposed to do 27km at the weekend and did 0, missed 3 training sessions and counting having picked up a cold. Feeling very anxious about it but hopefully I can back on track if I le things mend rather than push through. Plan is 32km this weekends long run which will be longest training run.

There’s no point in pushing through an illness. For what it’s worth my best marathon was after a training block where I missed a few long runs and other runs due to injury. Since then despite perfectly executed plans I’ve not been able to better that time. Listen to your body and trust in the work you have done.

ewc78

68 lost souls wrote: »

All was going well after a 1/2 time of 1:52:09 8 days ago, was supposed to do 27km at the weekend and did 0, missed 3 training sessions and counting having picked up a cold. Feeling very anxious about it but hopefully I can back on track if I le things mend rather than push through. Plan is 32km this weekends long run which will be longest training run.

Have picked up a few colds myself lately and feeling pretty run down right now.
It's not even the tiredness as having 3 boys under 7 at home I'm used to being tired!
Its more the lack of energy and as I said feeling run down.
Have been hitting 50 mile weeks for the past while now,which is a lot for me, so hoping this is all normal..!

I don't remember feeling this way any of the last Marathons I did, but then again my milage is much higher than any of those previous training cycles.

ISOP

I ran my first 4 on Sunday in Belrin after nearly 2.5 years of trying. I used the runners world sub 4 plan and stuck religiously to it. Towards the end it was getting tough, but stay with it. My advice is stay with the plan and get the sessions done even when you are tired, it will pay off, trust and believe in the training

ewc78

ISOP wrote: »

I ran my first 4 on Sunday in Belrin after nearly 2.5 years of trying. I used the runners world sub 4 plan and stuck religiously to it. Towards the end it was getting tough, but stay with it. My advice is stay with the plan and get the sessions done even when you are tired, it will pay off, trust and believe in the training

Well done.

roosterman71

What is the general advice if you have to stop due to a cold? How long should you pause or how much training to skip?

chris85

Some opinions would be grateful her. I dip into this thread a bit to see how things are going as also looking to get first sub 4 this year.

Training for DCM and all going great so far. Mileage up and consistent all year, speed work building nicely all year, endurance getting better, feel stronger and I have PB'd in all races this year.

All good till last night when at end of a session was on cooldown and missed a small curb on badly lit path. Took a tumble and came down on my hip, leg and arms. Bit sore, managed a few miles jogging home (no other option to get home). Got some ice, took some Nurofen for some inflammation. Overall just feels a bit sore but motion seems OK. I am taking a rest day tomorrow but mentally I have taken a hit and just unsure what to do?

I had some big goals for the marathon and this has just hit at a bad time (could be worse even close to race in fairness). I dont think much use going to Physio as more just some scrapes and bumps really.

OOnegative

chris85 wrote: »

Some opinions would be grateful her. I dip into this thread a bit to see how things are going as also looking to get first sub 4 this year.

Training for DCM and all going great so far. Mileage up and consistent all year, speed work building nicely all year, endurance getting better, feel stronger and I have PB'd in all races this year.

All good till last night when at end of a session was on cooldown and missed a small curb on badly lit path. Took a tumble and came down on my hip, leg and arms. Bit sore, managed a few miles jogging home (no other option to get home). Got some ice, took some Nurofen for some inflammation. Overall just feels a bit sore but motion seems OK. I am taking a rest day tomorrow but mentally I have taken a hit and just unsure what to do?

I had some big goals for the marathon and this has just hit at a bad time (could be worse even close to race in fairness). I dont think much use going to Physio as more just some scrapes and bumps really.

Not to sound harsh, forget about it, you took a tumble and from what you can gather no serious damage done. Take a few days rest to let the soreness abate and stick to your marathon goals.

chris85

OOnegative wrote: »

Not to sound harsh, forget about it, you took a tumble and from what you can gather no serious damage done. Take a few days rest to let the soreness abate and stick to your marathon goals.

Yep probably right but problem is really dont know the damage at the moment. Something similar happened before my 1st marathon few years back and I struggled to recover in time so it just has me a bit anxious. I will relax for few days and just try forget about it and see how the body is.

OOnegative

chris85 wrote: »

Yep probably right but problem is really dont know the damage at the moment. Something similar happened before my 1st marathon few years back and I struggled to recover in time so it just has me a bit anxious. I will relax for few days and just try forget about it and see how the body is.

Yeah best thing to do, you’ll know yourself when your up to running. Easy to say but try not dwell on the negative thoughts, remember all the great training you’ve put in up to now and how that will stand to you come DCM.

Murph_D

chris85 wrote: »

Some opinions would be grateful her. I dip into this thread a bit to see how things are going as also looking to get first sub 4 this year.

Training for DCM and all going great so far. Mileage up and consistent all year, speed work building nicely all year, endurance getting better, feel stronger and I have PB'd in all races this year.

All good till last night when at end of a session was on cooldown and missed a small curb on badly lit path. Took a tumble and came down on my hip, leg and arms. Bit sore, managed a few miles jogging home (no other option to get home). Got some ice, took some Nurofen for some inflammation. Overall just feels a bit sore but motion seems OK. I am taking a rest day tomorrow but mentally I have taken a hit and just unsure what to do?

I had some big goals for the marathon and this has just hit at a bad time (could be worse even close to race in fairness). I dont think much use going to Physio as more just some scrapes and bumps really.

You were lucky - just dust it off, thank your guardian angel and keep it going. Maybe take a few easy days but sounds like no harm done. Turn it into a positive - you escaped an injury.

Edit - didn’t notice 00negative’s response - what he said first!