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Brexit discussion thread XI (Please read OP before posting)

Quin_Dub

This is the eleventh incarnation of our Brexit discussion thread,

Same warnings etc still apply:

As we are approaching the critical end of March October 2019 period, please bear the following in mind before posting:
Insults directed at popular figures are not acceptable in this forum
Please do not post memes, videos or comedy links here
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FrancieBrady

VinLieger wrote: »

Indeed yet unionists consider themselves "british", square that circle however you want but this is a pretty obvious dismissal of them.

They cannot say they were not warned about how this would pan out.
Unionism was trenchantly against a Border Poll, not because they might lose it the first or second time around, but because they didn't want the conversation about a UI to start.
Their actions over Brexit has inadvertently opened that conversation and worse, opened one in Britain itself, about how they see NI.

As the poster said...it's not good for them.

VinLieger

FrancieBrady wrote: »

'Britain' is England Scotland and Wales (and the smaller islands off it Isle of Wight etc), the United Kingdom is Britain and NI.

Indeed yet unionists consider themselves "british", square that circle however you want but this is a pretty obvious dismissal of them.

FrancieBrady

CrabRevolution wrote: »

There can't be too many issues (especially one on what "Britain" means) where Sinn Féin and the Brexit Party are 100% in agreement.....

'Britain' is England Scotland and Wales (and the smaller islands off it Isle of Wight etc), the United Kingdom is Britain and NI.

Strazdas

Brendan O'Neill urging people to riot :

https://twitter.com/MonarchyUK/status/1177549862348480512

(That should be the end of his TV career, but extremists on TV are the norm these days)

CrabRevolution

For Forks Sake wrote: »

https://twitter.com/Michael42683163/status/1177121447317254144?s=19

Oof, these are bad days to be an Ulster Unionist, wanted by no-one at this stage

There can't be too many issues (especially one on what "Britain" means) where Sinn Féin and the Brexit Party are 100% in agreement.....

For Forks Sake

https://twitter.com/Michael42683163/status/1177121447317254144?s=19

Oof, these are bad days to be an Ulster Unionist, wanted by no-one at this stage

mrbrianj

If I understand correctly, the Benn Act forces Johnson to request an extension to the date the leave the EU if no deal has been agreed.

Johnson could request an extension satisifying that, but one which also demands conditions which could force a refusal from the EU- then he acheives his no deeal brexit.

[Deleted User]

Infini wrote: »

https://mobile.twitter.com/bencoates1/status/1176750116474163201?s=21

Bit of irony but Kenya threatening to have Britain suspended from the commonwealth if the Brexiteers try undermining the Supreme Court. Kicked out of their own club the utter hilarity of it all if it ever happens.

It's tongue in cheek - Kenyans imagining how the equivalent happening in Kenya would be reported in the British/International media.

Infini

https://mobile.twitter.com/bencoates1/status/1176750116474163201?s=21

Bit of irony but Kenya threatening to have Britain suspended from the commonwealth if the Brexiteers try undermining the Supreme Court. Kicked out of their own club the utter hilarity of it all if it ever happens.

Zubeneschamali

FrancieBrady wrote: »

They have managed to waste time though by doing it.

They could have wasted just as much time by sitting eating ham sandwiches.

They have achieved less than nothing, losing their thin majority not by a little, but by a lot, and losing massively in the Supreme Court. If they try another stunt that lands them in court, they can expect a very unsympathetic hearing.

robinph

Panrich wrote: »

Another avenue that is under consideration

https://www.cityam.com/exclusive-government-plan-to-invoke-eu-laws-supremacy-to-ensure-brexit-on-halloween/

I have a fear that there is a smugness behind the certainty about leaving on the 31st October that means they have something from left field up their skeeve.

Unless they make this move at 11:59pm on the 31st October parliament can still remove Johnson from his PM role and install someone else temporarily who will submit the extension letter.

Edit: and to ignore the Benn act would mean they need to make their move on the 17th anyway. Loads of time to remove Johnson.

FrancieBrady

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

I understand the fear, but they had the same smugness about proroguing parliament and got absolutely hammered.

They have a 100% losing record, having lost every single vote in Parliament, and when the opposition finally vote to unseat Johnson as PM, he will have had the shortest tenure in #10 ever, as well as the historic 11-0 hiding he got in the Supreme Court.

He is just crap at Prime Ministering, and Cummings is one of those clever people who genuinely think everyone else is an idiot and hence overestimate their own abilities.

They are devious enough to have a plan B and C and who knows, they may have been well aware the prorogation would be overturned. They have managed to waste time though by doing it.

I just wouldn't be confident in the 'they are stupid' theory...yet.

ltd440

Although Cummings is obviously a smart guy, he was at his best against a small section of undecided voters in a referendum.
His machiavellian tricks seem to be washing off the backs of more politically astute minds.
I would think he's a busted flush at this stage and Boris is only keeping him in the hope of using his expertise in the election

Quin_Dub

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I know people like to paint the current Tory crop as stupid but I didn't think them stupid enough to keep talking themselves into an embarrassing climbdown. I suspected there was a few more plays left.

Interesting times.

It seems to me that the only "plan" they have is to try and bully or exasperate others to just give up.

Whether that's trying to bully and abuse their opposition into giving them the election they so desperately want or exasperating the EU by continuing to provide no substantive suggestions for a deal such that the EU27 are less likely to agree to what should be the inevitable extension.

That's all they have - They are the toddler lying on the ground thrashing their arms and legs and trying to make themselves vomit so they can get their own way.

Zubeneschamali

Panrich wrote: »

I have a fear that there is a smugness behind the certainty about leaving on the 31st October that means they have something from left field up their skeeve.

I understand the fear, but they had the same smugness about proroguing parliament and got absolutely hammered.

They have a 100% losing record, having lost every single vote in Parliament, and when the opposition finally vote to unseat Johnson as PM, he will have had the shortest tenure in #10 ever, as well as the historic 11-0 hiding he got in the Supreme Court.

He is just crap at Prime Ministering, and Cummings is one of those clever people who genuinely think everyone else is an idiot and hence overestimate their own abilities.

Bannasidhe

Deleted User wrote: »

Is this a joke? May was front and centre for absolutely ages working non-stop. She can't go for a day of cricket after the nightmare she went through?

Such moaning. Woman's crying at the pulpit but can't take a day off after she's not the PM.

Maybe she had time off in lieu.

I agree. In the overall scheme of things May being at the cricket is a non-story and the woman deserved a break.
Perhaps if she had held up a sign saying 'Angela Merkel thinks I'm at work' people wouldn't be complaining.

FrancieBrady

Panrich wrote: »

Another avenue that is under consideration

https://www.cityam.com/exclusive-government-plan-to-invoke-eu-laws-supremacy-to-ensure-brexit-on-halloween/

I have a fear that there is a smugness behind the certainty about leaving on the 31st October that means they have something from left field up their skeeve.

I know people like to paint the current Tory crop as stupid but I didn't think them stupid enough to keep talking themselves into an embarrassing climbdown. I suspected there was a few more plays left.

Interesting times.

farmchoice

Panrich wrote: »

Another avenue that is under consideration

https://www.cityam.com/exclusive-government-plan-to-invoke-eu-laws-supremacy-to-ensure-brexit-on-halloween/

I have a fear that there is a smugness behind the certainty about leaving on the 31st October that means they have something from left field up their skeeve.

they have nothing, its the same bluff they used in the run up to the benn act going through, they implied heavily that they had a way to stop it if it was tried, they had nothing.

CelticRambler

On the question of language, incitement to hatred, parliamentary privilege and all that, Harriet Harman yesterday called for the establishment of a working group to draw up new rules for the modern era. It does seem quite ridiculous that someone like Johnson (or Peter Hain, for that matter) can stand up in front of cameras in Westminster, knowing that their words will be broadcast to the whole world, say whatever they want in whatever fashion they like, and then claim immunity from prosecution on the basis of parliamentary privilege.

These rules (and the words that Must Not Be Uttered) were drawn up in a time where the common man had to get on his horse and travel up to London if he wanted to sit in on proceedings. If he didn't do that, he'd have to rely on the account of the events written by someone who was there and delivered to him some days later. Those inherent obstacles made it unlikely that anything said in parliament would have signficant effect outside the Chamber before suitable counter-measures were put in place - or, indeed, the provocative member issued an apology or retracted their statement.

It really is head-scratchingly bizzare that an MP can be hauled over the coals (by the Speaker, at least) for addressing someone by their given name, yet can deliver a speech that would be considered incitement to hatred in any other context.

Panrich

Another avenue that is under consideration

https://www.cityam.com/exclusive-government-plan-to-invoke-eu-laws-supremacy-to-ensure-brexit-on-halloween/

I have a fear that there is a smugness behind the certainty about leaving on the 31st October that means they have something from left field up their skeeve.

RickBlaine

Anyone with an interest in Brexit should follow David Allen Green. He provides essential commentary on Brexit from a constitutional viewpoint in an easy to understand manner, and often debunks a lot of stuff reported in the media by journalists with little or no legal understanding.

GM228

I see Church of England bishops are now weighing in on the language used by Johnson stating it is "unacceptable" and "not worthy of our country".

No doubt the hard line Brexiteers will add to their courts have no say in sovereign matters stance with something or other involving the church...

GM228

Akrasia wrote: »

Hopefully they're right, but in the current circumstances where time is so important, Johnson could attempt to use this mechanism on October 18 and then try to challenge any injunction for long enough that Britain crashes out of the EU.

If I was the opposition, the first thing I would do is change the benn act so that the date Johnson has to send that extension letter is moved forward so that he would have to play his wildcards earlier and there would be time to have them declared illegitimate and force him to request the extension

Courts can act very quickly when needed, especially concerning items of national importance, trying to challenge any court orders to delay things would not really work.

Akrasia

prawnsambo wrote: »

That's not an actual option available to him. As David Allen Green points out.

Hopefully they're right, but in the current circumstances where time is so important, Johnson could attempt to use this mechanism on October 18 and then try to challenge any injunction for long enough that Britain crashes out of the EU.

If I was the opposition, the first thing I would do is change the benn act so that the date Johnson has to send that extension letter is moved forward so that he would have to play his wildcards earlier and there would be time to have them declared illegitimate and force him to request the extension

GM228

Akrasia wrote: »

This is looking like it might be a viable option for Johnson and there isn't any obvious counter to it

No deal's on again off again relationship with reality seems to be back on again.

It was rubbished pretty quickly by nearly every constitutional law expert you can think of, it's the little flaws in the Benn Act however which all agree could (provided certainissues pan out in a certain way) see a lawful crash out on the 31st without having requested an extension.

lawred2

prunudo wrote: »

Or informing his opponents to watch their backs and make sure they have all angles covered.

what can they do?

edit: I see above

prawnsambo

Akrasia wrote: »

Cummings already knew about this.

By highlighting it now, it gives the opposition more time to come up with counter measures

That's not an actual option available to him. As David Allen Green points out.

Akrasia

Cummings already knew about this.

By highlighting it now, it gives the opposition more time to come up with counter measures

prunudo

lawred2 wrote: »

Major doing his best to help Johnson along

Or informing his opponents to watch their backs and make sure they have all angles covered.

lawred2

Akrasia wrote: »

This is looking like it might be a viable option for Johnson and there isn't any obvious counter to it

No deal's on again off again relationship with reality seems to be back on again.

Major doing his best to help Johnson along