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Days off

Michelleb355

Hi.

I have a bit of a work situation I need advice with. My sister is getting married just after Christmas, I work in retail so just have the 25th off and then back to work. The manager has holidays from the 24th to early January every year and it’s company policy that no other member of staff can book more than one day off during that time. Under the circumstances (I’m also maid of honor ) I went to my manger to explain the situation and he told me there’s nothing to be done only take the day of the wedding off and be back in work the following morning. The wedding is in London so this is going to be next to impossible. He also told me I can go to HR but will more than likely be told the same thing. I’m working with the company 12 years and I don’t want to leave. Has anyone any advice?

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killanena

If your working 4/5 days a week, why not just request Saturday and Sunday your days off and Monday and whatever for your second week? Still be doing your 4/5 shifts (excluding Xmas).

I work in retail management and I find it very strange that a company will not allow its employees to request time off over the holidays. The way we do it is if you are working Xmas even and Stephens day, your off new years eve and day. And swap it around each year.

pjdarcy

Time to dust off the CV OP. If you hand in your notice with a firm offer on the table from another employer you'll be amazed at how quickly your boss will find a solution to this problem.

facehugger99

SusieBlue wrote: »

How would it be unfair if OP was dismissed, pray tell?
.

It wouldn't be for you or me to make that determination.

But if you think that dismissing someone for missing a day's work is a tenable position to take, well I hope you're never put in charge of such a decision, because you've likely opened up your company to a significant claim.

tobottherobot

If it were me I'd not turn up the next day. You could buy flights for the early departure, save the details in your email and afaik you can change them to a later flight with Ryanair within 24 hours for a flight that night. That way you could show HR you tried to get back but missed the flight if they began asking questions.

Wanderer78

splinter65 wrote:

I donâ€™t want to be either sacked warned or bollocked. Do you think that thereâ€™s some kind of WRC that comes round to the workplace and stops an employer from sacking an employee? Because thereâ€™s not.

Warnings and bollockings, big whoop-de-fcuking-doo

As others have said, 'delays' are a dreadful thing at such critical moments

Some employers seriously need to get over themselves, I'd imagine the business won't shut leading to catastrophic job losses due to one employee not turning up for a day

SusieBlue

facehugger99 wrote: »

It wouldn't be for you or me to make that determination.

But if you think that dismissing someone for missing a day's work is a tenable position to take, well I hope you're never put in charge of such a decision, because you've likely opened up your company to a significant claim.

It’s not just missing a days work, it’s missing a days work during a business critical period of trade when her annual leave was denied.
Big, big difference.

I never said I agreed with it or supported it, I said it’s a common position for companies to take. Many companies would consider it to be gross misconduct.
Employees don’t have grounds to claim because they broke their contract by not showing up.

It’s something OP needs to consider before recklessly deciding not to turn up so lose the passive aggressiveness, it’s not warranted.

facehugger99

SusieBlue wrote: »

Employees don’t have grounds to claim because they broke their contract by not showing up.

This may come as news to you but not showing up for work due to illness is not 'breaking your contract'.

Whether you're actually ill or not is not a decision for the OP's line manger or some jumped-up HR goon to make.

Claiming they can be dismissed for missing a day's work is alarmist nonsense - this is not the 1800's.

[Deleted User]

Batgurl wrote: »

“No you’re grand thanks. My refund is none of your business but cheers for the concern.”

Ah, okay - you think the OP should commit career suicide?

[Deleted User]

Salary Negotiator wrote: »

How would a retail manager/HR get the OP a refund?

They couldn't, it would just be their way of checking you're not telling porkies. Absolutely you can tell them politely to PFO, but most people don't want to piss off their employers.

NSAman

As an ex-owner of a retail business two things spring to mind here.

Why is your manager able to swing every christmas off?

The company is acting very poorly towards you!

Christmas is the busiest time of the year in retail. NO manager should be getting that length of time away from work.

With 12 years of service, I would bend over backwards to assist you in your request.

Obviously, approach the owner/HR about this situation. If they refuse, it will tell you how appreciated you are and start looking around.

Family ALWAYS comes first, weddings, funerals, family issues were always more important to us than work. It creates trust between employees and owners.

the_pen_turner

Deleted User wrote: »

Ah, okay - you think the OP should commit career suicide?

yes or you could tell them that looked into it and becasue it was not the airline fault that you missed the flight that there is nothing they can do. also its not the hire cars fault becasue you must have driven over a nail etc

SusieBlue

facehugger99 wrote: »

This may come as news to you but not showing up for work due to illness is not 'breaking your contract'.

Whether you're actually ill or not is not a decision for the OP's line manger or some jumped-up HR goon to make.

Claiming they can be dismissed for missing a day's work is alarmist nonsense - this is not the 1800's.

Employers aren't obliged to accept sick notes.
Sick notes are not a "get out of jail free" trump card for employees to use when their annual leave is denied.
A doctors cert is an explanation as to why OP isn't in work, but it doesn't mean her employer has to accept it.
She can still be disciplined regardless if they consider it to be an unauthorised absence. Which it would be seeing as they are aware she was at her sisters wedding during the "sickness".

And again, you are completely misrepresenting the issue at hand.
She isn't just missing a day, she is missing a day during a business critical period of trade which she has already been denied annual leave for.
Big difference.

[Deleted User]

SusieBlue wrote: »

Employers aren't obliged to accept sick notes.
Sick notes are not a "get out of jail free" trump card for employees to use when their annual leave is denied.
A doctors cert is an explanation as to why OP isn't in work, but it doesn't mean her employer has to accept it.
She can still be disciplined regardless if they consider it to be an unauthorised absence. Which it would be seeing as they are aware she was at her sisters wedding during the "sickness".

And again, you are completely misrepresenting the issue at hand.
She isn't just missing a day, she is missing a day during a business critical period of trade which she has already been denied annual leave for.
Big difference.

I find your post hard to believe. I've worked for many employers since I started working in the 1980's - private sector and now public sector. I have never once has an employer not accept a doctors cert, or question me when I was off sick. Why would they? I don't know what business you work in or if you manage one but I sure wouldn't like to work there!

nthclare

SusieBlue wrote: »

Employers aren't obliged to accept sick notes.
Sick notes are not a "get out of jail free" trump card for employees to use when their annual leave is denied.
A doctors cert is an explanation as to why OP isn't in work, but it doesn't mean her employer has to accept it.
She can still be disciplined regardless if they consider it to be an unauthorised absence. Which it would be seeing as they are aware she was at her sisters wedding during the "sickness".

And again, you are completely misrepresenting the issue at hand.
She isn't just missing a day, she is missing a day during a business critical period of trade which she has already been denied annual leave for.
Big difference.

That's what I'd call time to change career's.
Imagine working under these conditions where you're working under stone age principles and practices.

O thought working with businesses like this went out in the early 80's
Unfortunately there's still Victorian work house's alive and well in good old Ireland.

A lot of places take on extra staff in the holiday period.

Sounds like the op's managers a right bell end.

I suppose being a smart ass and well up in my rights I'd run ring's around a manager like this.

12 years on the job and putting up with this ****.

Oh if I was independently wealthy I'd apply for jobs in these places and just have a ball going for interviews and sticking their jobs up their arses.

Work for a day or two and drive the bastard's nuts....

Give the rest of the staff a good laugh...

[Deleted User]

Deleted User wrote: »

I find your post hard to believe. I've worked for many employers since I started working in the 1980's - private sector and now public sector. I have never once has an employer not accept a doctors cert, or question me when I was off sick. Why would they? I don't know what business you work in or if you manage one but I sure wouldn't like to work there!

It depends, have you ever asked for annual leave, explain how vital it was and once refused you ended up bringing in a sick cert.

I'm 100% behind the OP. Saying a doctor's cert will cover it isn't guaranteed.

gwalk

nthclare wrote: »

Oh if I was independently wealthy I'd apply for jobs in these places and just have a ball going for interviews and sticking their jobs up their arses.

Work for a day or two and drive the bastard's nuts....

Give the rest of the staff a good laugh...

And what about the persons you'd be depriving of these oportunites for your ****s and giggles?

a few of you go for an interview, you get offered the job and the others dont, you decide to piss off after 2 days or make a horrible atmosphere for exisiitng staff by "driving the Bastard's nuts" as you say

but you would've had your fun I suppose

[Deleted User]

SusieBlue wrote: »

She isn't just missing a day, she is missing a day during a business critical period of trade which she has already been denied annual leave for.
Big difference.

There's been no suggestion that this is a critical period. Just that the staff can't be off while the manager is off.
If it were critical the manager wouldn't be off for the whole period.

The OP could be selling office supplies for all we know.

[Deleted User]

nthclare wrote: »

Oh if I was independently wealthy I'd apply for jobs in these places and just have a ball going for interviews and sticking their jobs up their arses.

Work for a day or two and drive the bastard's nuts....

Give the rest of the staff a good laugh...

You'd quite possibly/probably be eventually sectioned.

SusieBlue

Deleted User wrote: »

I find your post hard to believe. I've worked for many employers since I started working in the 1980's - private sector and now public sector. I have never once has an employer not accept a doctors cert, or question me when I was off sick. Why would they? I don't know what business you work in or if you manage one but I sure wouldn't like to work there!

I haven't either, but then again I haven't ever failed to show up for work when I've been denied annual leave.

Dress it up however you like but OP would be taking a serious chance calling in sick & hoping her boss will accept the sick note when they know full well she should be abroad at a wedding she badly wanted to go to over those dates.

I don't understand what the hostility is about, I'm not a manager and I don't support the actions of OP's boss but its reckless and terrible advice to just say "get a sick note, be grand" when there could be serious consequences for her.

Her bosses have already proven to be unaccommodating and inflexible, and you think they'll just accept a doctors cert with no trouble for OP??

If her company won't budge she'd be far better off handing in her notice now and looking for something new, because it'll be much easier to get a job this side of Christmas than it will in January.

weldoninhio

gwalk wrote: »

And what about the persons you'd be depriving of these oportunites for your ****s and giggles?

a few of you go for an interview, you get offered the job and the others dont, you decide to piss off after 2 days or make a horrible atmosphere for exisiitng staff by "driving the Bastard's nuts" as you say

but you would've had your fun I suppose

I'd imagine they'd hire the next person on the list after the two days. I don't think they'd decide to leave the store short staffed.

[Deleted User]

NSAman wrote: »

As an ex-owner of a retail business two things spring to mind here.

Why is your manager able to swing every christmas off?

The company is acting very poorly towards you!

Christmas is the busiest time of the year in retail. NO manager should be getting that length of time away from work.

With 12 years of service, I would bend over backwards to assist you in your request.

Obviously, approach the owner/HR about this situation. If they refuse, it will tell you how appreciated you are and start looking around.

Family ALWAYS comes first, weddings, funerals, family issues were always more important to us than work. It creates trust between employees and owners.

SusieBlue wrote: »

I haven't either, but then again I haven't ever failed to show up for work when I've been denied annual leave.

I don't understand what the hostility is about, I'm not a manager and I don't support the actions of OP's boss but its reckless and terrible advice to just say "get a sick note, be grand" when there could be serious consequences for her.
.

firstly it wasn't me who suggested OP gets a sick note. I have never got a sick note when I was refused leave but having said that I have never worked for unreasonable managers. I have always been able to negotiate annual leave more or less when I needed it. As NSAman said accommodating staff with family issues creates trust - you get back what you put in.

There is no shortage of jobs in the current climate. If I had given 12 good years to a business/shop/manager and this was how I was treated I would be leaving at the earliest opportunity. Its a different story if someone is still on probation, but 12 years service usually means someone is at a senior level or has advanced in the business and should be a valued member of staff. If you cannot get leave for not just any wedding but your SISTER'S wedding which all your family and extended family will attend and which OP will be Maid of Honour at - it speaks volumes of how much esteem (or not) your employer holds you in.

As another poster said this is not the 1800's. There are too many other opportunities out there.

Tomw86

SusieBlue wrote: »

Its not uncommon for this to be the standard in retail & hospitality industry over the festive period, unfortunately.

I would write a clear, concise email, to HR to plead you case.
Highlight your 12 years of dedicated service, and explain your extenuating circumstances for your request.
Say that you understand policy etc. but you're hoping they can make a one off exception in your case.
Include proof, such as a picture of the invitation/screenshot of flights etc. so that they know your reasons are legitimate and that you aren't making up a sob story to go on the piss with your friends or something.
Have you worked Xmas Eve/New Years Eve/Day over the last few years? If so definitely mention that too, so that they can see you have been flexible and accommodating in the past.
Copy in your manager and anyone else in a position of authority over you. Say you are available to meet in person at their discretion to discuss any concerns or issues they may have.

Don't do it in person or over phone, you want a paper trail here. Also, if its via email, they are obliged to hear you out and actually read your request. I found that if I made requests like yours in person, I'd be cut off & interrupted and simply told no.

Fingers crossed they will grant your leave and you will be able to go, but if not, you should hand in your notice without question.

Do this!

If that does not yield any responses then go to HR and mention that the manager needs to be flexible in his holidays and as they have always had that period off, it is only fair on others that they work it every now and again - they cannot repeat this back to the Manager as far as I am aware.

facehugger99

SusieBlue wrote: »

and you think they'll just accept a doctors cert with no trouble for OP??

I'd love to see someone make this argument in front of the WRC.

First question to HR - "What medical training, qualifications and experience do you have?"

SusieBlue

Deleted User wrote: »

firstly it wasn't me who suggested OP gets a sick note. I have never got a sick note when I was refused leave but having said that I have never worked for unreasonable managers. I have always been able to negotiate annual leave more or less when I needed it. As NSAman said accommodating staff with family issues creates trust - you get back what you put in.

There is no shortage of jobs in the current climate. If I had given 12 good years to a business/shop/manager and this was how I was treated I would be leaving at the earliest opportunity. Its a different story if someone is still on probation, but 12 years service usually means someone is at a senior level or has advanced in the business and should be a valued member of staff. If you cannot get leave for not just any wedding but your SISTER'S wedding which all your family and extended family will attend and which OP will be Maid of Honour at - it speaks volumes of how much esteem (or not) your employer holds you in.

As another poster said this is not the 1800's. There are too many other opportunities out there.

I'm a bit confused, I'm not siding with OP's employer so I'm not sure why your post is directed at me?
She absolutely should be given the time off without question and her employers are unreasonable to deny her.
I've said that several times already.
However, if they refuse, she should leave on her own terms with a good reference and not risk being jobless in January.
I would have thought that this was reasonable, logical advice, instead of the other advice which was to just not show up, demand the days off, or pull a sickie.

You are very lucky to have always worked for reasonable managers but not everyone is so lucky. This very forum is proof of that

Tomw86

facehugger99 wrote: »

I'd love to see someone make this argument in front of the WRC.

First question to HR - "What medical training, qualifications and experience do you have?"

Exactly, for HR or a company to dispute a doctors note they'd be implying that the doctor themselves is incompetent and so would be taking a case against them directly.

A doctors cert could not work against the OP in any way in terms of punishment by the company.

nthclare

gwalk wrote: »

And what about the persons you'd be depriving of these oportunites for your ****s and giggles?

a few of you go for an interview, you get offered the job and the others dont, you decide to piss off after 2 days or make a horrible atmosphere for exisiitng staff by "driving the Bastard's nuts" as you say

but you would've had your fun I suppose

Seriously wouldn't it be some craic, sure they'ed employ anyone after my antic's lol

I'd make the atmosphere a good laugh, it's not the staff I'd be undermining but the sanctimonious gob****es running the show

Allinall

facehugger99 wrote: »

I'd love to see someone make this argument in front of the WRC.

First question to HR - "What medical training, qualifications and experience do you have?"

What lie do you suggest the OP tell their doctor, in order to fraudulently get a sick cert.?

nthclare

[Deleted User] wrote: »

You'd quite possibly/probably be eventually sectioned.

I don't think so, seriously dude I'm just trying to take the piss....

If everyone had your attitude there would be a lot of people sanctioned....

SusieBlue

facehugger99 wrote: »

I'd love to see someone make this argument in front of the WRC.

First question to HR - "What medical training, qualifications and experience do you have?"

If they can prove that she was at her sisters wedding in the UK when she was supposed to be "sick" at home in Ireland, her note isn't worth the paper its written on and it could be counted as an uauthorised absence which in some companies, is considered a gross miscondut.

OP's employers don't sound particularly respectful, accommodating, or flexible, so if they had proof, which they could easily get if they wanted to, she absolutely could face being disciplined.
I'm neither condoning nor supporting that, but its something OP needs to be aware of before she decided her course of action.

Tomw86

Allinall wrote: »

What lie do you suggest the OP tell their doctor, in order to fraudulently get a sick cert.?

Firstly, I am not advocating this course of action, and have never done so myself, BUT as the OP is female there is increased options available which may be hard for a doctor to specifically diagnose :P Especially with a job in retail that I assume would involve being on your feet and active all day.