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Brexit discussion thread XI (Please read OP before posting)

Quin_Dub

This is the eleventh incarnation of our Brexit discussion thread,

Same warnings etc still apply:

As we are approaching the critical end of March October 2019 period, please bear the following in mind before posting:
Insults directed at popular figures are not acceptable in this forum
Please do not post memes, videos or comedy links here
Please do not be uncivil to other posters
Please use the report function to alert the mods when necessary

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CelticRambler

Seth Brundle wrote: »

Point of order - a food critic should probably know that a dolphin is not a fish!
(but let's not derail the discussion)

Au contraire: the metaphor is perfect, with many in the UK trying to pass off Brexit as something that it is not!

[Deleted User]

https://parliamentlive.tv has the Commons now.

Zubeneschamali

Forty Seven wrote: »

I don't want another referendum.

Because you know you would lose. If you thought you would win, you'd be saying "Bring it on, let's get it done, shut the Remainers up and then leave".

But Leave was only ever ahead of Remain in the polls for a brief period at the time of the vote, thanks to a massive dark-money-fuelled social media hack. Most polls show Leave 4-8% behind all this year:

https://whatukthinks.org/eu/questions/should-the-united-kingdom-remain-a-member-of-the-european-union-or-leave-the-european-union-asked-after-the-referendum/

Professor Moriarty

Call me Al wrote: »

I'm watching BBC broadcasting outside parliament.
It's sad. Politicians on panels arguing with anger in their voice, literally pointing fingers at the faces of those on the panel they disagree with. Shouting at one another. The emotive provocative language they're using.

Citizens in organised interviews arguing about the vote and the situation they've found their country in. Shouting at one another.

It's just awful awful awful to watch.

Increases viewing figures and sells more newspapers.

Zubeneschamali

jmayo wrote: »

Actually if the British, as one of the biggest economies, could have helped steer the direction of the EU over the years if they really wanted to.

They did - Thatcher was one of the biggest boosters of the Single Market.

[Deleted User]

Cox going mad here. Calling Labour cowards.

Imreoir2

sdanseo wrote: »

It would be somewhat morbidly fascinating to see what would happen if in Modern times, the Monarch did use their Discretion. And then did not abdicate, and generally speaking decided to become an absolute Monarch of their own volition.

If the initial decision was very popular it could be years before they were overthrown, and could end in a civil war, even these days.
Of course if not there would probably be a very short coup and the Monarchy abolished.

If in using their own discretion they tried to usurp the power of parliament, it is something that would only come after a serious behind the scenes battle to get them to decist and not plunge the country into a constitutional crisis. If even after this they choose to go ahead, I think they would be forced to abdicate within a matter of hours. It would only take a simple vote of parliament to toss them out on their ear. It would never get close to a protracted battle or any kind of armed conflict.

LeinsterDub

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Cox going mad here. Calling Labour cowards.

Amazing and disgraceful scenes in parliament. Cox sounds like a autocratic nutcase

vmb

Am I wrong or he just said that the paralament is dead? I'm not native english speaker

Call me Al

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Increases viewing figures and sells more newspapers.

That's beside the point though. It is a country divided. And bitterly so.
Eta and Cox's oratorial soapboxing right now isn't helping matters.

LeinsterDub

vmb wrote: »

Am I wrong or he just said that the paralament is dead? I'm not native english speaker

He means this session is of parliament. Rather than parliament in general

Shelga

Strazdas wrote: »

The guy is an utter political extremist : I've no idea how he can be a 'media commentator'.

It would be like having some dissident republican type on the airwaves here.

I didn’t really mean he is dangerously ill-informed; I wanted to use stronger language in condemning him but didn’t want to risk a warning or a ban.

I should have just said- he is dangerous.

Corbyn acquitted himself reasonably well on the Today programme on Radio 4 this morning- in my opinion anyway. I do understand and agree that he is below the standard needed by the leader of the opposition in these times, absolutely. But most times when I hear him speak, he is just so far ahead of Johnson in terms of sounding reasonable and decent. I never thought Remain could be thought of as an extremist position, but Jo Swinson has managed to make it so.

Link below:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m0008nwz

It starts at 2.10. Michael Gove is on before him, at 1.48, if anyone wants to hear his unctuous, entitled tones attempt to defend the indefensible.

Attorney General Geoffrey Cox currently sounds like he is literally frothing at the mouth as he screams his head off in the HoC. They have all gone collectively insane.

Imreoir2

Forty Seven wrote: »

Yes we do. What we don't have are sore losers demanding another vote after one has just been completed. Democracy would not last for long if this happened often.

Yes you do, the opposition does vote against the government, or election of the Taoiseach, they vote against the governments budgets. If the government lost any of those votes it would require a fresh election. The job of the opposition is to oppose government, not to lie down and give the government a free hand becasue they won.

There were times when we had three elections in one year in this country becasue the government could not hold its majority together.

You really have no idea what you are talking about here.

blackwhite

Imreoir2 wrote: »

The job of the opposition is to oppose government, not to lie down and give the government a free hand becasue they won.

On a fairly important point - that kind of argument is responsible for so much of the partisan and populist BS we see in democracies around the world at the moment.

The role of opposition is to hold the Government to account; to scrutinise Govt policy, and oppose any policies or actions that they see as not in the best interest of the country. A decent opposition party will show support for things that they see as being good policies - albeit with attempts to tweak or amend elements to more suit their own ideologies.

Blanket opposition of everything for the sake of it should never be the role of any responsible opposition party.

Cork Boy 53

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Amazing and disgraceful scenes in parliament. Cox sounds like a autocratic nutcase

The only thing that has not happened to drag parliament further into the gutter is MPs actually physically assaulting each other in the chamber and I wouldn`t rule that out either.

An Ciarraioch

Significant development at the Labour conference, where members have voted to support freedom of movement - given that had been the party's principal objection to the Single Market, a motion proposing remaining in the European Economic Area could have the numbers to pass in the Commons:

https://twitter.com/labfreemvmt/status/1176809015893995520

vmb

LeinsterDub wrote: »

He means this session is of parliament. Rather than parliament in general

Thanks LeinsterDub, that was I understood. What he said is an extremely serious statement.

I think he's forcing the parlament to call for a GE.

Professor Moriarty

Call me Al wrote: »

That's beside the point though. It is a country divided. And bitterly so.
Eta and Cox's oratorial soapboxing right now isn't helping matters.

Well, it's actually relevant. Much of Brexit, and its consequential and hysterical division of the country, is as a result of how television and newspapers reported on Brexit. If it had been calm and factual then people would have been properly informed. But much of it was driven by agendas and money. So people are now hyped up on lies and manipulation by the media who was chasing increased viewership and increased sales. And this continues today.

Imreoir2

Forty Seven wrote: »

It happens. It does not mean it should. These are outliers. Not the norm.

What is your point? It is part of a functioning democracy.
Referendums are outliers in the UK system full stop, the UK has only ever had three of them and Brexit is the first time the people voted for change. It was clearly a very flawed approch and by Irish standards is a joke of a system. No Irish governemnt would put a vague, non-binding question to the people in a referendum with no plan on how to implement the result. What you are seeing now is the consequences of this god awful proceadure coming home to roost.

Democracy is not about putting a simplistic question to the people, getting a vague mandate and then deciding that this is the "will of the people" and using it to do whatever the hell you like. That is a tactic dictatorships use.

Leaving the Customs Union is not the will of the people, leaving the single market is not the will of the people, leaving the EU with no-deal is not the will of the people. Anyone who says otherwise is lying.

Imreoir2

Forty Seven wrote: »

Absolute tosh. Remain is much more than remaining the same and it is disingenuous to suggest otherwise.

Do you want a European army?
Do you want blanket corporate tax rates?
Do you want more federalisation?

Please tell me that you understand that voting to remain would not have caused any of these things to happen. Each and every one of those things is something that the British government could have refused to participate in had the vote been to remain in the EU. It is utterly false to suggest otherwise.

People voted leave. They likely want a deal but there is not a deal acceptable to both sides. I believe Boris wants a deal. He is playing hardball. We will see if he succeeds. If not then we leave anyway. The country is no closer to a remain majority than it was. I don't want another referendum. I've had enough. I want it done as does everyone I know.

No you wont. Parliament is quite clear on this point, if Borris fails to get a deal the UK will not leave, it will request an extension. Remember when people said they wanted to take back control? Parliament has taken back control and they have said no to no-deal.

woejus

Cork Boy 53 wrote: »

The only thing that has not happened to drag parliament further into the gutter is MPs actually physically assaulting each other in the chamber and I wouldn`t rule that out either.

Betfair market for that would be interesting. My money on Mark Francois to kick things off with a flying kick.

Cox did seem unhinged there. I can't imagine that going over well with moderate Tory voters, if such a thing still exists.

FrancieBrady

Imreoir2 wrote: »

Please tell me that you understand that voting to remain would not have caused any of these things to happen. Each and every one of those things is something that the British government could have refused to participate in had the vote been to remain in the EU. It is utterly false to suggest otherwise.

No you wont. Parliament is quite clear on this point, if Borris fails to get a deal the UK will not leave, it will request an extension. Remember when people said they wanted to take back control? Parliament has taken back control and they have said no to no-deal.

Is it not: they will tell Johnson to request an extension? And then we again wait to see what chaos will ensue if he doesn't.

LeinsterDub

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Is it not: they will tell Johnson to request an extension? And then we again wait to see what chaos will ensue if he doesn't.

https://twitter.com/BethRigby/status/1176833382174642176

Looks like the opposition is going to force Johnson's hand . It makes sense , move the request forward , force Johnson to ask for it , then call the GE

prawnsambo

Interesting that when asked about it, Cox said that what he said in July about a prorogation being unconstitutional, was in relation to one from 1st September to 31st October. So his opinion seems to be that the duration of the prorogation makes it unconstitutional (and implicitly denying parliamentary oversight of the government) yet at the same time saying that the Supreme Court decision amounts to 'new law'. If he felt that the principle existed prior to the judgment, then he can't be too surprised by it.

sdanseo

prawnsambo wrote: »

Interesting that when asked about it, Cox said that what he said in July about a prorogation being unconstitutional, was in relation to one from 1st September to 31st October. So his opinion seems to be that the duration of the prorogation makes it unconstitutional (and implicitly denying parliamentary oversight of the government) yet at the same time saying that the Supreme Court decision amounts to 'new law'. If he felt that the principle existed prior to the judgment, then he can't be too surprised by it.

Sounds like a matter of basic interpretation of the term "reasonable".

No doubt he was being pressured into saying 4-5 weeks was reasonable.
Supreme court quite rightly found it to be "perfectly clear" that it is unreasonable.

He's either been leaned on to say what he said deliberately so that he could be scapegoated or he's a gob****e.

Strazdas

vmb wrote: »

Am I wrong or he just said that the paralament is dead? I'm not native english speaker

That's what he said, yes (quite shocking really)

Professor Moriarty

Strazdas wrote: »

That's what he said, yes (quite shocking really)

Cox is a bombast who loves attention. His behaviour throughout, precisely because he knows better, renders him a thundering disgrace.

Strazdas

LeinsterDub wrote: »

https://twitter.com/BethRigby/status/1176833382174642176

Looks like the opposition is going to force Johnson's hand . It makes sense , move the request forward , force Johnson to ask for it , then call the GE

Indeed, Oct 31 is merely the end deadline.....there's nothing to prevent considerable movement before then.

SeaBreezes

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Amazing and disgraceful scenes in parliament. Cox sounds like a autocratic nutcase

It's a play for the viewers. He knows most of UK will tune in for the first half hour so he has to get his piece in. No coincidence his voice posture and rhetoric is very like Churchill all he's missing is the cigar...

BonnieSituation

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Cox is a bombast who loves attention. His behaviour throughout, precisely because he knows better, renders him a thundering disgrace.

Well it is GUBU!

I'm in Japan at the minute so catching up with the goings on is not as fluid as it is when I'm home.

Anyone want to post some links to clips from parliament today? Danke.