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Brexit discussion thread X (Please read OP before posting)

johnnyskeleton

This is the tenth incarnation of our Brexit discussion thread, so Ive copied ACDs comments from the last thread to here. Same warnings etc still apply:

As we are approaching the critical end of March October 2019 period, please bear the following in mind before posting:
Insults directed at popular figures are not acceptable in this forum
Please do not post memes, videos or comedy links here
Please do not be uncivil to other posters
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beggars_bush

I see the spin has begun about the meeting with that parent in the hospital

10000maniacs

fash wrote: »

https://twitter.com/davidallengreen/status/1174418355991797767?s=20
Nice comment on this from David Allen Green
https://twitter.com/davidallengreen/status/1174420060976373760?s=20

"I have been in the job 57 days, it wasn't me who did this."
Not quite Boris. He approached Brexit like a bull in a china shop since 2016.
Arlene Foster ditto and also pathetically trying to step down from her Brexit ladder yesterday.

GM228

Scoondal wrote: »

And because of the "Common Travel Area", we will still be treated as outsiders when travelling to EU countries. And if your wife is non EU, well then you are just dirt. Ireland needs to join the "Schengan Area" and ditch the "CTA Area". I am fed up with my wife needing a visa to go to other EU countries. Because of CTA, Irish people are subject to UK laws regarding non EU immigration. Ridiculous situation.

Scoondal wrote: »

Somebody is going to take a legal case about this discrimination of Irish people in EU law. It is morally and legally wrong. EU citizens cannot be treated differently in law because of a bi-lateral agreement with a soon to be non EU country. I can expand my case if anyone wishes because I have jumped through all the hoops that were put in front of me.

Perhaps this thread is not the best place to discuss this particular point, but, there is nothing legally wrong with it because Ireland and the UK are exempt (and specifically so in accordance with EU law) from the requirements of Schengen and the associated rights afforded by the third countries visa requirements Regulations in relation to for example family members.

Whilst Ireland and the UK have an option to adopt (either in full or in the part) the Schengen acquis there is no obligation to do so and failure to do so is not a breach of any rights or privileges afforded.

maynooth_rules

Any of you ever listen to Dunphys podcast. He seems to have gotten all 6 people on this island who thinks that the backstop is a bad idea. It's infuriating to listen to

fash

GM228 wrote: »

"The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command. His heart sank as he thought of the enormous power arrayed against him, the ease with which any Party intellectual would overthrow him in debate, the subtle arguments which he would not be able to understand, much less answer. And yet he was in the right! They were wrong and he was right' - 1894, George Orwell.

At least it's not an embarrassment, just part of the job

https://twitter.com/BorisJohnson/status/1174415346561945601?s=19

https://twitter.com/davidallengreen/status/1174418355991797767?s=20
Nice comment on this from David Allen Green
https://twitter.com/davidallengreen/status/1174420060976373760?s=20

Bit cynical

Scoondal wrote: »

I am an EU citizen. BUT, because of this "CTA"agreement, my rights are less than other EU citizens. I say again ... that is disgusting.

Unfortunately, Brexit makes Ireland joining Schengen less likely as it makes the CTA and related reciprocal right to work more essential.

Scoondal

Somebody is going to take a legal case about this discrimination of Irish people in EU law. It is morally and legally wrong. EU citizens cannot be treated differently in law because of a bi-lateral agreement with a soon to be non EU country. I can expand my case if anyone wishes because I have jumped through all the hoops that were put in front of me.

Scoondal

Bit cynical wrote: »

On the other hand continued commitment to the CTA is one of the things required of the UK in the WA.
"The United Kingdom shall ensure that the Common Travel Area and the associated rights and privileges can continue to apply without affecting the obligations of Ireland under Union law, in particular with respect to free movement for Union citizens and their family members, irrespective of their nationality, to, from and within Ireland."
We can't get rid of the common travel area while at the same time insisting that it is essential to us.

I am an EU citizen. BUT, because of this "CTA"agreement, my rights are less than other EU citizens. I say again ... that is disgusting.

Bit cynical

Scoondal wrote: »

And because of the "Common Travel Area", we will still be treated as outsiders when travelling to EU countries. And if your wife is non EU, well then you are just dirt. Ireland needs to join the "Schengan Area" and ditch the "CTA Area". I am fed up with my wife needing a visa to go to other EU countries. Because of CTA, Irish people are subject to UK laws regarding non EU immigration. Ridiculous situation.

On the other hand continued commitment to the CTA is one of the things required of the UK in the WA.

"The United Kingdom shall ensure that the Common Travel Area and the associated rights and privileges can continue to apply without affecting the obligations of Ireland under Union law, in particular with respect to free movement for Union citizens and their family members, irrespective of their nationality, to, from and within Ireland."

We can't get rid of the common travel area while at the same time insisting that it is essential to us.

jm08

bilston wrote: »

What the hell went in whatever strategy meeting the DUP leadership had to determine which side to back in the Referendum?

I seem to recall reading that they didn't really think about it - it was basically a brief discussion and since they have always had problems with the EU (popish plot, liberal agenda etc) that they would support Brexit thinking that it would never happen!

Capt'n Midnight

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Johnson given a two week deadline from Macron and Rinne (Finland has the presidency currently) to come up with a plan. Proper order. Johnson's big wheeze was to prevaricate and deflect until the very last minute and then dump his plan on the table hoping to force the EU to accept.

He expects the EU to change it's course ?

Reminds me of

British politics today is what results from the collision of an unstoppable force, an immovable object and a clown car.

More foreign media impressions of Brexit here
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-49689123

Mr.Nice Guy

54and56 wrote: »

Wow, looks like Arlene has thrown Sammy and Nigel under a NI built Boris Bus after her meeting with Leo tonight - “The presentation of the DUP as a ‘no deal’ party is wrong. People get very alarmed when they see that sort of rhetoric, We do want to see a deal but it has to be a deal that works for everybody,” she said.

That's not much different to what Jeffrey Donaldson was saying to RTE a few months ago:

Speaking on RTE's Morning Ireland, Jeffrey Donaldson said that while the DUP wanted to leave with a deal, it would not join parliamentary efforts to prevent Brexit from happening and would not take no-deal "off the table".

"We know that is the strongest lever the UK government has in its negotiations with Brussels," Mr Donaldson said.

However, he stressed the DUP wanted to see a deal and he hopes that Brussels would compromise on a withdrawal agreement.

https://www.rte.ie/news/brexit/2019/0725/1065127-brexit/

The party line is they want a deal - but they also won't take any steps to ensure that a No Deal is taken off the table.

This just sounds to me like the DUP being in election mode trying to protect their own skin. If there winds up being No Deal then they'll need a defence against the charge that they didn't do enough to prevent it.

Scoondal

And because of the "Common Travel Area", we will still be treated as outsiders when travelling to EU countries. And if your wife is non EU, well then you are just dirt. Ireland needs to join the "Schengan Area" and ditch the "CTA Area". I am fed up with my wife needing a visa to go to other EU countries. Because of CTA, Irish people are subject to UK laws regarding non EU immigration. Ridiculous situation.

GM228

Enzokk wrote: »

And then to point out that this was a PR exercise for Johnson and he tried to deny it

"The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command. His heart sank as he thought of the enormous power arrayed against him, the ease with which any Party intellectual would overthrow him in debate, the subtle arguments which he would not be able to understand, much less answer. And yet he was in the right! They were wrong and he was right' - 1894, George Orwell.

At least it's not an embarrassment, just part of the job

https://twitter.com/BorisJohnson/status/1174415346561945601?s=19

Mr.Nice Guy

MrMusician18 wrote: »

Not exactly true. How Blair was referred to evolved over time: First he was Tony, then Tony Blair, then just Blair and finally Bliar.

By the broadcasters? I can't recall Blair ever being described on a first name basis by the main channels. Maybe others can recall it in which case I'll stand corrected but this pally term of 'Boris' feels like a pretty unprecedented step.

Scoondal

The tiny DUP party is irrelevant.
The UK government signed up to the terms of their withdrawal from EU in November 2018. EU was very nice to extend the leaving date to 31 October. That's it ... we were nice once and UK messed it up again. No more extensions.

54and56

Wow, looks like Arlene has thrown Sammy and Nigel under a NI built Boris Bus after her meeting with Leo tonight - “The presentation of the DUP as a ‘no deal’ party is wrong. People get very alarmed when they see that sort of rhetoric, We do want to see a deal but it has to be a deal that works for everybody,” she said.

Full article here - Arlene Foster signals DUP shift on Northern Ireland border issue

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/sep/18/arlene-foster-signals-dup-shift-on-northern-ireland-border-issue?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard

Zubeneschamali

bilston wrote: »

if the pre Iraq version of Tony Blair was leader of the Labour Party at the moment, I'm convinced he'd win an even bigger majority than what he did in 1997.

Well, yes, of course. That is Tony Blair's legacy - no-one cares about all the Cool Britannia election winning bull**** because he went on to commit giant war crimes with his buddy George Bush.

There is no pre Iraq war Blair now, we're just lucky the Labour party survived that disaster at all.

MrMusician18

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

Notice too whenever you listen to the main channels how often he is described by his first name, as if he's their pal. I don't recall hearing 'Theresa', 'Gordon', 'Tony' etc when they were PM.

Not exactly true. How Blair was referred to evolved over time: First he was Tony, then Tony Blair, then just Blair and finally Bliar.

bilston

johnmcdnl wrote: »

The fault isn't with Corbyn despite his flaws, it's with the British electorate itself. If the monumental mess and clown show that UK politics has turned into, which has even got worse since Boris became leader, isn't enough to sway voters, what possibly is? Do you actually think there's any member of the Labour party who would poll better, if given the current scenario they still choose Conservative. What could possibly change these voters minds?

So Corbyn is right and everybody else is wrong?

There aren't many options at the moment, but if the pre Iraq version of Tony Blair was leader of the Labour Party at the moment, I'm convinced he'd win an even bigger majority than what he did in 1997.

It's all its and buts but I wonder what would have happened if back in 2010 Labour had voted in David Milliband instead of Ed.

bilston

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

I have zero doubt he will abandon them as the path of least resistance and they know that.

This

I'll never know why the DUP thought there would be any other outcome.

But then as a moderate Unionist from NI I'll never understand why on earth the DUP ever thought Brexit would be a good idea.

It's bad economically for Northern Ireland, anyone could see that. It's bad politically for Northern Ireland in terms of the tensions it will cause and as for the impact on the Union...WTF were they thinking? The GFA should have secured Northern Ireland in the UK for at least 50-100 years, if not forever...Brexit could make a United Ireland almost inevitable in the next 25 years. Pre referendum support for a UI was below 25%, people were content with the compromise, now Nationalists are agitated again and even some Unionists are starting to wonder what the future holds. What the hell went in whatever strategy meeting the DUP leadership had to determine which side to back in the Referendum?

The DUP have done more damage to the Union in 3 years than the PIRA managed in 40 years of the Troubles.

How Arlene Foster is still their leader is just baffling.

johnmcdnl

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Well, everyone knows the EU always caves. He's painted himself into a corner with his rhetoric. Full-throated oomph, bulldog spirit, boosterism, yadda yadda. You know you're losing when May starts looking more statesmanlike. Mind you, he's still miles ahead of Corbyn in the polls though, which tells you all you need to know about Corbyn.

The fault isn't with Corbyn despite his flaws, it's with the British electorate itself. If the monumental mess and clown show that UK politics has turned into, which has even got worse since Boris became leader, isn't enough to sway voters, what possibly is? Do you actually think there's any member of the Labour party who would poll better, if given the current scenario they still choose Conservative. What could possibly change these voters minds?

J Mysterio

LeinsterDub wrote: »

https://mobile.twitter.com/BBCNewsPR/status/1174427356854984704
BBC defending Kuenssberg. Nothing to see here seems to be their attitude

Im amazed they issued a statement. If I was them, would have keep schtum. Heaps pressure on Kuenssburg. The dreaded 'vote of confidence'.

Enzokk

Some reaction to Laura Kuenssberg and her tweets,

https://twitter.com/drphiliplee1/status/1174336409496379392?s=20

And then to point out that this was a PR exercise for Johnson and he tried to deny it,

https://twitter.com/MarkDiStef/status/1174324138590253066?s=20

I guess the strategy worked, we are talking about her tweets rather than the serial liar.

MrMusician18

LeinsterDub wrote: »

https://mobile.twitter.com/BBCNewsPR/status/1174427356854984704
BBC defending Kuenssberg. Nothing to see here seems to be their attitude

She should have been sacked along with Adler for being **** a long time ago.

Zubeneschamali

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

The FT reported today he is well aware now after meeting Barnier.

Not sure if you are serious. If joking, ha ha, good one.

Seth Brundle

Headshot wrote: »

They would be over the moon as it effectively puts a border between the North and South. A huge back step to unification in their eyes.

It would also mean an end to that dreadful GFA and it's ambitions to give equality to non-unionists.

Kermit.de.frog

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Your faith that Johnson has some sort of idea what's going on is touching.

The FT reported today he is well aware now after meeting Barnier.

Zubeneschamali

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

I doubt it would have been held if there wasn't some movement behind the scenes.

Why?

Of course Varadkar will meet them if they ask, but there is no reason to suppose there is any real movement behind the scenes, especially from, of all people, the DUP.

Mr.Nice Guy

I'm not convinced the DUP are shifting their stance. I think it's more likely they sense there will be a backlash coming against them in an inevitable election for being unreasonable, and so they want to be able to say to the electorate, "but we were reasonable. Arlene Foster even met with the Taoiseach at an event in Dublin. But we made it clear the constitutional position of NI couldn't be affected", yadda, yadda, yadda.

I think it's all optics. Whatever solution ends up being created to solve this mess, I'd be astonished if it occurs with DUP cooperation. I suspect, much like with the Anglo-Irish Agreement and GFA, it will happen with them outside, howling about betrayal.