The Dominance of Dublin GAA Mod warning post#1

Tombo2001 wrote: »

Why is it that you identify disproportionate funding as the primary problem, but you don't see a reversal of the disproportionate funding as the primary solution.

That's what I don't get.

If you think funding is the problem, then rebalance the funding.

But you aren't saying that.

There are other advantages (which I mentioned in the post you just quoted if you had actually read it) not just the funding- population alone is probably grounds for a split.

I already explained to you why equalisation of funding will not be sufficient in a recent post- go back and have a read.

Basically, one, two or even five years of equalised funding will not be sufficient ("equalisation" would also have to mean long term funding averages from ALL sources, including sponsorship, would have to be levelled, not just money from the GAA by the way). Dublin will reap the benefits of the last 15 years of financial doping for years to come. No-one will maintain interest as they continue hammering other teams and the gap continues to grow.

So let's split them to help manage this problem instead as funding equalisation, which probably wouldn't take into account sponsor funding and would therefore be pointless, will be ineffective.

Hope that helps.

Tombo2001

gaffer91 wrote: »

There are other advantages (which I mentioned in the post you just quoted if you had actually read) not just the funding- population alone is probably grounds for a split.

I already explained to you why equalisation of funding will not be sufficient in a recent post- go back and have a read.

Basically, one, two or even five years of equalised funding will not be sufficient ("equalisation" would also have to mean long term funding averages from ALL sources, including sponsorship, would have to be levelled, not just money from the GAA by the way). Dublin will reap the benefits of the last 15 years of financial doping for years to come. No-one will maintain interest as they continue hammering other teams and the gap continues to grow.

So let's split them to help manage this problem instead as funding equalisation, which probably wouldn't take into account sponsor funding and would therefore be pointless, will be ineffective.

Hope that helps.

OK so now your saying that financial doping is the major reason for Dublins success, but if you take it away they will still be successful anyway and the problem wont be solved.

That's a no win situation for anyone trying to debate you on this one.

bruschi

omega man wrote: »

Population is still an extremely unfair bench mark with regard to a perceived advantage.

omega man wrote: »

Did you actually read this?

One piece states: “Monaghan, for example, has a population of just 60,483 – so, in fact, its games development funding of €124,000 means it gets almost €2 per person, so about double what Dublin gets“.

But but population...

so population is an unfair bench mark to grade Dublin, yet you want to receive funding based on population? A hugely contradictory argument. Either the population is a bench mark for numbers, or it is based on the registered club players. You cant claim it both ways and expect it to wash.

omega man wrote: »

Redevelopment of Parnell Park, new stadium maybe? I thought we shouldn’t be playing in croke Park for home matches..

Again we don’t even have a centre of excellence. The funding goes into kids for gods sake!

The funding goes to kids. The ignorance in this statement as if other counties receive money and divert it away from coaching. It is a clear misunderstanding of funding allocation and what the GAA hierarchy have set up. It's also quite insulting as if counties promote their infrastructure to the detriment of playing or coaching. It is not a case that a county receives money and it is up to them to spend it how they wish. They apply for both games funding and capital funding under 2 different entities. Neither are combined nor assessed together, they are 2 completely different entities. Combining them, and even worse combing them and trying to equate them per playing teams in a county (not even by registered clubs) is one of the worst ways of trying to show the distribution of funds. (not done by you by the way.)

And as for a centre of excellence, a handy way of getting one is to put a small amount of money into one being built by the association so you dont have to pay for it all like every other county.

https://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/gaelic-football/dubs-invest-2m-to-set-up-base-at-gaa-centre-of-excellence-30052047.html

But this is still claimed as a 32 county investment.

I believe the senior set up have since removed their gym equipment from there, but having so many top level set ups in the county ensures there is no need for them to have to build anything like every other county has to do.

omega man wrote: »

Regardless this isn’t a Dublin issue. Up to the GAA to determine if there isn’t a level playing field. It’s also up to other county boards to take action and put their own plans in place as we did many years ago.

And this gem. Again, one of my most hated arguments ever. As if every other county is some tinpot organisation and Dublin were the only ones to do this or create a development plan. Pretty much every other county created and keeps updating strategic development plans, some of which includes games funding applications, some dont. I know for a fact that Wexford sought additional games funding, specifically for additional full time coaches, but were refused multiple times. As were all Leinster counties where there was a hold on further coaching appointments in favour of the club coaching model the GAA implemented in Dublin.

These full time coaches to clubs were not offered and were not available to any other county for over 10 years. And in the majority of counties, they still are not being offered or available. Those that do have access to this are in short demand and upon strict eligibility criteria.

This fact, that it is up to other counties to do like Dublin, is thrown out as if it happens like a click of the fingers. It doesnt, and nothing to do with Dublin, but this was the GAA who have scuppered this. They implemented a very good coaching plan in Dublin but did not do it anywhere else. This is where the majority of the disparity in funding comes from and its baffling that anyone thinks that what the GAA did, in massively funding the strongest population and financial county with the most natural resources by giving them so much more than all other counties, is in anyway creating a level playing field.

None of the above is in anyway derogatory to Dublin and their achievements. I also hate all this asterisk crap people say about their 5 in a row. They won it as they made the best of what they have. My main, and only issue, is with the GAA hierarchy and their set up in putting forward both a structure and funding, so far over and above every other county and not making available to other counties. And also, people saying congress voted for this or other such rubbish, they dont. Applications are submitted and either approve or rejected by the head committee. Every application received from 31 counties was refused. Dublin got a €6m investment for a hurling project and when this ceased, a few of the mid ranking counties applied for similar. What they got was 6 (or 5?, not sure off hand) counties sharing €200k per annum for a couple of years. where these ones badly needed it but not given it.

This was created by the GAA. Grossly over funding the biggest population and richest county and refusing to even have a partial sharing of the funding elsewhere has created a massive gulf. Their focus was on population, not on competition. To me, it has backfired as a national interest, but is successful on a single county interest. Overall, I'm not sure if they are economically any better of by doing so, as the Leinster championship has dwindled away to nothing when it was at one stage highly competitive about 15 years ago.

gaffer91 wrote: »

I was thinking the same, the number of clubs per county is hilariously inaccurate!

Look we're going around in circles again.

Key points:

1. Dublin have received and continue to receive millions more in funding than every other county. Both from the GAA, from the government of the 2000s, from their sponsors. No-one else can compete with this.

2. As money matters in sport, this funding has helped them win more titles than would otherwise have been possible. Gormdubhgorm and Gachla have posted some charts showing an absolute explosion in Dublin titles since 2000 relative to the period before then.

3. Dublin also have other advantages- population and playing all consequential games in their de facto home pitch.

All of this is well established. So, this thread shouldn't even really be about whether Dublin are unfairly favoured, it should be what the GAA can do to help manage this problem before it destroys the All Ireland series as a competitive spectacle. Look at how Leinster has gone to the dogs since the financial doping started (combined with other factors including the other unfair advantages mentioned in point 3)- we're already well down that path for the All Ireland championship.

As mentioned before, I think the only effective measure will be to split their inter- county team into 4.

1) Your problem seems to be Dublin dominate Leinster.
2)It's been pointed out time and time again that Kerry dominate Munster to a far greater extent.
3) You refuse to respond on this.
4) You or possibly another poster stated (apparently seriously although you may have been trolling) that Kerry and Kilkennys domination was legitimate but Dublins not !!

In summary you dont particularly care if any county dominates as long as its not Dublin in which case you have a problem.

Tombo2001 wrote: »

A related point.

Take Dublin games out of Croke Park.

Put them say in Parnell Park instead, or play all the games in Dr Cullen park.

Revenue to the GAA drop instantly by €15mn per annum. Don't forget that its not just gate receipts - corporate box revenues are huge for the GAA, and who is paying for a corporate box if there are no games on show.

That's almost 50% of all the operating surplus in the GAA - so the total budget for Games Development, Stadium Development, Coaching for the entire country drops by half.

That's what you are asking for.

Most Dublin games don't sell out- they could easily be facilitated in other large stadiums like Semple, Limerick or Cork.

Unless you're saying Dublin fans won't travel to attend unless it's in Dublin?

Dublin have played basically all games at home in recent years so it's not unreasonable for them to play away a bit more frequently for the coming years (like every other county).

The drop in money would be much less than you're implying.

RedDevil55 wrote: »

I see you declined to answer my 3 questions earlier, instead arguing over DCU and UCD. I'll try again...

So you accept Dublin don't need any capital grants while using Croke Park and the numbers in your previous post are irrelevant?

Do you think the current disparity in Games development funding is right?

How is the intercounty game going to be viable in future when Dublin have 90+ full time coaches compared to others having 3 or 4??

Ok you said they had the run of DCU (UCD as pointed out since) with all sorts of access to sports science and medical teams so can you explain where you got that information from?

We don’t need capital grants but as everyone says we get an unfair advantage playing home games in Croke Park so why not give Dublin grants like other counties to redevelop Parnell Park perhaps? Then Croke Park wouldn’t be a issue anymore, one less advantage no?

The games funding was/is for kids due to the poor state of the game in the capital. This has been a huge success but there is no direct correlation between that funding and our current senior football success. As I’ve said before though there are still hugely populated areas with only 1 single club so it’s not all rosey.

It’s also worth pointing out that the Clubs pay 50% of the development coaches costs. If one of these coaches is covering multiple age groups it’s not exactly elite coaching!!

Anyway none of this is of any concern to Dublin whatsoever and if there are any genuine funding issues then it’s up to the GAA to address it, not the DCB.

Happyilylost

Tombo2001 wrote: »

A related point.

Take Dublin games out of Croke Park.

Put them say in Parnell Park instead, or play all the games in Dr Cullen park.

Revenue to the GAA drop instantly by €15mn per annum. Don't forget that its not just gate receipts - corporate box revenues are huge for the GAA, and who is paying for a corporate box if there are no games on show.

That's almost 50% of all the operating surplus in the GAA - so the total budget for Games Development, Stadium Development, Coaching for the entire country drops by half.

That's what you are asking for.

I don't think anyone wants Dublin out of Croke Park. More the status quo to be returned. It's only a small issue but it still grates me. Dublin should not play home league games in Croke Park. Or the early rounds of Leinster. I don't think revenue would drop all that much. League games are €10/€15 a go. Its expensive to open Croke Park too. But all this is irrelevant. A purpose built stadium should of been sorted out long ago and it hasn't. Not Dublin's fault. Its just the way it is.

Tombo2001 wrote: »

OK so now your saying that financial doping is the major reason for Dublins success, but if you take it away they will still be successful anyway and the problem wont be solved.

.

I'm saying that after this many years of financial doping favouring Dublin, one or two years of equalised funding (again, this would have to be equalised funding from ALL sources) won't make much difference, and that Dublin still have other massive advantages on other counties.

Tombo2001 wrote: »

That's a no win situation for anyone trying to debate you on this one.

Only because the facts are so resoundingly on my side.

gaffer91 wrote: »

I'm saying that after this many years of financial doping favouring Dublin, one or two years of equalised funding (again, this would have to be equalised funding from ALL sources) won't make much difference, and that Dublin still have other massive advantages on other counties.

Only because the facts are so resoundingly on my side.

Presumably the same advantages they had when Kerry were winning 81 provincial titles and 37 AI's !!

Maybe we should ban Dublin and just give Kerry the AI as that's what you seem to desire ?

Next they'll be telling us the altitude chambers were free of charge and of no benefit whatsoever.....

Goebbels couldn't light a candle to these propagandists ................

jmayo

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

There are a number of reasons I think it varies.
Some do not understand Dublin GAA and how it is run.
They only think in rural terms for example there is no parish rule in Dublin.
Dublin has vast population areas with only one club Erins Isle - Finglas. Round Towers Clondalkin. They have not done well for decades. With catchment/areas populations up to 100k

...
But then Dublin club football has to contend with blow in players arriving from other counties - they still manage to develop Dublin players despite this.
While the country lads take advantage of Dublin facilities and training.

There is also the competition from other sports that non-Dubs do not get.
It is not like the local village where the GAA club is the only activity/focal point.
There are GAA wastelands in Dublin.

Oh FFS this shyte again.
There are basketball, soccer, athletic, rugby clubs throughout the country
Granted there are not the same calibre as your Clontarfs, Landsdowne, St Marys in Rugby, Crusaders, Rathfarnhams in Athletics, Home Farm or Joeys in soccer.
But they do exist.
The day has gone when all there was GAA.

Also you see it as a problem there is only Round Towers in Clondalkin.
And I think guy on PrimeTime last night said one club, not sure if it was RoundTowers, had 3,000 members over 170 odd teams.

With that amount of numbers in Dublin clubs imagine the bar returns, imagine the fundraising capability in area size of Irish city, imagine the amount of local sponsorship options.

Do you fooking realise how much most rural clubs would die for that amount of members ?
Do Dublin underage teams have problems actually fielding a team and having to drag some younger lads along to make up the numbers ?
I have lad u12 where coach was begging kids to come as they only had 9 for a match.

jaysus christ you complain others don't understand Dublin GAA, but really what you see as issues for Dublin, most clubs throughout the country would die for.
You have no fecking clue about GAA outside of Dublin.

Tombo2001 wrote: »

Not being smart - but I still don't see a funding disparity, unless you mean - why should a bigger county get more money.

If its on a 'per head of population basis' then no right minded person will see a problem with that.

Do you think the PM of Luxembourg goes whingeing to the EU that they don't as much Agri subsidies as Italy or France?

Except it wasn't for number of years on per head of population because Dublin is only4/5 times bigger than Cork but was getting something like 13/14 times more.

kyote00 wrote: »

The funding per registered club shows only marginal extra cash to Dublin...

Take the funding for the larger counties, divide by the number of registered clubs and it becomes clear that Dublin get less per club than a lot of the so called minnows.

Ehh totally disingenous post not looking at the figures properly.

And I notice your post was thanked by some who are very quick to jump on figures from others as being misleading.

Cork got huge wad of cash 1.5 million or so, for the payment of the redevelopment of Pairc Ui Chaoimh.

Longford were so high there because they had to totally redevelop their county ground and over 1millio of that money was for it.

Laois also have had huge debts for ground work AFAIK.

TrueGael wrote: »

Next they'll be telling us the altitude chambers were free of charge and of no benefit whatsoever.....

Goebbels couldn't light a candle to these propagandists ................

Kerry man yeah ?

Some fair points in your argument @bruschi but my point on population was that the funding should be based on population if the aim is to increase participation but on the flip side shouldn’t be used against us as a metric for our current success, just like saying China should be a top team in soccer based on their population resources.
Of course at some point if participation growth is significant then yes funds should be based on clubs/registered players on a par with other counties.

rm75 wrote: »

1) Your problem seems to be Dublin dominate Leinster.

My problem is that Dublin are unfairly advantaged relative to every other county. These advantages include financial doping, population and de facto home pitch advantages, among others. These advantages help them to win more games and titles than would otherwise be possible.

rm75 wrote: »

2)It's been pointed out time and time again that Kerry dominate Munster to a far greater extent.
3) You refuse to respond on this.

It's been pointed out time and again that Dublin have unfair advantages. You refuse to engage with this.

Kerry don't have any unfair advantages- Dublin have many. As such, their victories are not unfair. Even if Dublin don't win the All Ireland for the next 5 years these unfair advantages would need to be addressed.

rm75 wrote: »

4) You or possibly another poster stated (apparently seriously although you may have been trolling) that Kerry and Kilkennys domination was legitimate but Dublins not !!

Kerry and Kilkenny don't have any unfair advantages.

rm75 wrote: »

In summary you dont particularly care if any county dominates as long as its not Dublin in which case you have a problem.

In summary, I don't particularly care if a county dominates as long as it's done on a level playing field. This is not the case with Dublin, for the reasons listed above.

Equally, I do care if a county isn't dominating but is unfairly favoured like Dublin are- this should still be addressed even if they aren't winning every single game every year.

gaffer91 wrote: »

My problem is that Dublin are unfairly advantaged relative to every other county. These advantages include financial doping, population and de facto home pitch advantages, among others. These advantages help them to win more games and titles than would otherwise be possible.

It's been pointed out time and again that Dublin have unfair advantages. You refuse to engage with this.

Kerry don't have any unfair advantages- Dublin have many. As such, their victories are not unfair. Even if Dublin don't win the All Ireland for the next 5 years these unfair advantages would need to be addressed.

Kerry and Kilkenny don't have any unfair advantages.

In summary, I don't particularly care if a county dominates as long as it's done on a level playing field. This is not the case with Dublin, for the reasons listed above.

Equally, I do care if a county isn't dominating but is unfairly favoured like Dublin are- this should still be addressed even if they aren't winning every single game every year.

No playing field is level. If it was there would have been an equal spread of winners throughout history. There isnt. How have Kerry won as many all irelands as they have ?

You've decided to focus on the advantages Dublin may have while ignoring the advantages others have.

Again your problem isn't that a county is dominating or indeed are you really bothered as to the reasons for that. Your problem is that county is Dublin.

If you came on here and suggested 32 different franchises with the exact same populations and exact same funding (which is the natural end point of your argument) i'd take you seriously. Given you wont the only reasonable conclusion one can make is you are anti dublin and only care that they dont win. How that is achieved doesnt interest you.

Could the propagandists explain why they couldn't win a raffle for decades before the financial doping scandal began???? In all codes, Mens, Ladies, Clubs etc

Where were the great "volunteers" we keep hearing about back then?

Gael85

ArielAtom wrote: »

So you honestly think that any venue Dublin train in is gifted to them and they don't pay the going rate to rent it? Are you really saying that?

AFAIK they train at a club ground for most of the season. They do not use Abbotstown, that is used by clubs from the surrounding areas mostly.

They train in Inisfails pitch.

The high horse brigade

TrueGael wrote: »

Could the propagandists explain why they couldn't win a raffle for decades before the financial doping scandal began???? In all codes, Mens, Ladies, Clubs etc

Where were the great "volunteers" we keep hearing about back then?

They have their fingers firmly in their ears. Don't worry they'll be back to rabble on about population and Kerry dominance in the 70s soon enough

TrueGael wrote: »

Could the propagandists explain why they couldn't win a raffle for decades before the financial doping scandal began???? In all codes, Mens, Ladies, Clubs etc

Where were the great "volunteers" we keep hearing about back then?

They were 2nd in the All Ireland honours list behind Kerry !!!!

If you take out the 7 this decade they had won 22, the next highest was Cork and Galway with 7 /9

This thread is a car crash

ThunbergsAreGo

gaffer91 wrote: »

My problem is that Dublin are unfairly advantaged relative to every other county. These advantages include financial doping, population and de facto home pitch advantages, among others. These advantages help them to win more games and titles than would otherwise be possible.

Kerry don't have any unfair advantages- Dublin have many. As such, their victories are not unfair. Even if Dublin don't win the All Ireland for the next 5 years these unfair advantages would need to be addressed.

Cork have 5x the population of Waterford?
Galways has 7x the population of Leitrim?

Do they have an unfair advantage there?

When population is mentioned at what point is it "fair"?

TrueGael wrote: »

Could the propagandists explain why they couldn't win a raffle for decades before the financial doping scandal began???? In all codes, Mens, Ladies, Clubs etc

Where were the great "volunteers" we keep hearing about back then?

You clearly dislike dublin, just come out and say it and stop the pretence that you have any interest or desire to understand Dublin GAA matters. Your username is quite ironic I guess...

Edit: while you’re at it admit that you didn't want to see our sport grow in the capital because god forbid we’d actually become successful!

omega man wrote: »

You clearly dislike dublin, just come out and say it and stop the pretence that you have any interest or desire to understand Dublin GAA matters. Your username is quite ironic I guess...

Seems to be a Kerry man strangely , not a real fan clearly, most Kerry supporters are very knowledgeable and gracious in my experience. Probabably one of the one day out a year mob.

Peter Keane : "Look, in any game every team has a chance, no matter what way you go about it. Is the gap bridgeable? Sure of course it is. Otherwise we'd all pack up and there'd be no-one playing. You have to have some bit of belief that you can do something,"

Happyilylost

omega man wrote: »

Some fair points in your argument @bruschi but my point on population was that the funding should be based on population if the aim is to increase participation but on the flip side shouldn’t be used against us as a metric for our current success, just like saying China should be a top team in soccer based on their population resources.
Of course at some point if participation growth is significant then yes funds should be based on clubs/registered players on a par with other counties.

In all the pages we have here does anyone have the figures for player participation for Dublin for some year around 2001 to the current numbers now? It will be interesting to know has this money had the desired effect. I would love to see money put into trying to increase hurling in north Galway and football in east Galway where the word "wasteland" would be very apt to these locations as its one code and nothing else for the most part.

omega man wrote: »

You clearly dislike dublin, just come out and say it and stop the pretence that you have any interest or desire to understand Dublin GAA matters. Your username is quite ironic I guess...

Edit: while you’re at it admit that you didn't want to see our sport grow in the capital because god forbid we’d actually become successful!

I don't dislike anybody

I detest financial doping in all forms be it PSG, Man City or here. It ruins it for everyone - the other teams blocked from organic success and those that "win" via such methods are upset and angry that they dont get the credit and acclaim normal teams do

So its a lose lose scenario for all!!!!

RedDevil55

Tombo2001 wrote: »

Can you show us the actual stats on this

How many full time coaches are in Dublin, exactly?

And how many in other counties, exactly?

90 coaches @ €18k per annum (clubs finance the rest of the salary) is ~€1.6m per year. Which is what Dublin have been receiving annually.

I thought there were 4 full time coaches in my county but the figures I'm seeing would only cover 2. Maybe other people have info on the number of coaches in their county?

TrueGael wrote: »

I don't dislike anybody

I detest financial doping in all forms be it PSG, Man City or here. It ruins it for everyone - the other teams blocked from organic success and those that "win" via such methods are upset and angry that they dont get the credit and acclaim normal teams do

So its a lose lose scenario for all!!!!

You’ve just destroyed any credibility in comparing Dublin GAA to PSG or Man City ffs.

Didn’t realise we could just buy the best players from other counties and here’s us putting in thousands of hours developing our own players from underage to senior level.

I’m starting to think you’re not even a GAA person at all.

RedDevil55

omega man wrote: »

Ok you said they had the run of DCU (UCD as pointed out since) with all sorts of access to sports science and medical teams so can you explain where you got that information from?

We don’t need capital grants but as everyone says we get an unfair advantage playing home games in Croke Park so why not give Dublin grants like other counties to redevelop Parnell Park perhaps? Then Croke Park wouldn’t be a issue anymore, one less advantage no?

The games funding was/is for kids due to the poor state of the game in the capital. This has been a huge success but there is no direct correlation between that funding and our current senior football success. As I’ve said before though there are still hugely populated areas with only 1 single club so it’s not all rosey.

It’s also worth pointing out that the Clubs pay 50% of the development coaches costs. If one of these coaches is covering multiple age groups it’s not exactly elite coaching!!

Anyway none of this is of any concern to Dublin whatsoever and if there are any genuine funding issues then it’s up to the GAA to address it, not the DCB.

I didn't say anything about access to sports science. Just that Dublin don't need to play the poor mouth around no centre of excellence. You brought up capital grants to show how other counties have got funding. It's irrelevant to this thread.

I would be in favour of redeveloping Parnell park. It is not right that Dublin have played home league games in Croker since 2011.

If the funding keeps getting divided by population, then splitting Dublin is inevitable and nobody wants that.

Everyone knows it's up to the GAA to address the problem, yet Dublin people feel it's an attack on them.

RedDevil55 wrote: »

I didn't say anything about access to sports science. Just that Dublin don't need to play the poor mouth around no centre of excellence. You brought up capital grants to show how other counties have got funding. It's irrelevant to this thread.

I would be in favour of redeveloping Parnell park. It is not right that Dublin have played home league games in Croker since 2011.

If the funding keeps getting divided by population, then splitting Dublin is inevitable and nobody wants that.

Everyone knows it's up to the GAA to address the problem, yet Dublin people feel it's an attack on them.

But there is a clear attack from many (not you). It’s starts off by well done to dublin but...and ends with financial doping or an asterisk beside our AIs etc.

3 days after we won an historic 5 in a row and RTE run a primetime piece on Dublin funding. Seriously, why??!!

The high horse brigade

omega man wrote: »

3 days after we won an historic 5 in a row and RTE run a primetime piece on Dublin funding. Seriously, why??!!

Maybe you should actually read this thread instead of putting your fingers in your ears and going "na, na, na"!

The whole country is discussing it, I was in Donegal yesterday for work and Galway on Monday same conversations. The GAA have created a problem that needs to be fixed. We already have a monster that nobody can beat. Football is supposed to be about about ups and downs but yet we have Fenton who has never actually lost a championship game, that's unnatural