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The Dominance of Dublin GAA Mod warning post#1

seligehgit

Discussion of all matters relating to this contentious subject is welcome and the potential implications of same.This thread is solely for this purpose.

There appears to be a perception that the moderators are attempting to shut down discussion of this topic and direct same off to a low traffic stickied thread.Nothing could be further from the truth.Our sole motive was to confine discussion to a single thread and prevent cross thread posting which was adversely affecting the enjoyment of fellow posters.

Can we please keep posts civil and constructive in nature.

The Changes in the GAA-super thread is now for discussion of all other suggested reforms not relating to Dublin GAA.

Extra Mod Warning:
Right, a separate warning to both sides in this debate:
Firstly, any more mentioning of "financial doping" or any intimation that rules have been broken by Dublin or that Dublin have cheated are banned from now on. You can debate the issue of the funding that Dublin have received without resorting to that. There is zero evidence of it and posting about it will be considered trolling from here on in.

Secondly, this topic is, like it or not, a big talking point in gaelic football at the moment. You are more than welcome to argue your point, but posting in this thread to simply mock those on the other side or complaining about the topic is known as thread spoiling and is specifically banned in the charter (see point 8 here). No one is forcing you to click on this thread and no one is forcing you to post in it. If you don't like the topic, then don't post. It's as simple as that.

This thread is here so that all the discussion is in one place and it won't filter into other threads. This makes it easier to ignore for posters who don't really want to be involved in it. As a result, we haven't really been moderating it as severely as other threads. However, a number of posts recently from both sides are sailing too close to the wind and getting borderline personal. So please take a minute before you hit submit to ensure that your post won't fall foul of the rules. We'll have no hesitation in issuing cards and/or threadbans to posters who fail to heed this warning.

Please report any posts that you feel break the rules.

Any questions, please feel free to PM the mods.

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RedDevil55

omega man wrote: »

Redevelopment of Parnell Park, new stadium maybe? I thought we shouldn’t be playing in croke Park for home matches..

Again we don’t even have a centre of excellence. The funding goes into kids for gods sake!

So you accept Dublin don't need any capital grants while using Croke Park and the numbers in your previous post are irrelevant?

Do you think the current disparity in Games development funding is right?

How is the intercounty game going to be viable in future when Dublin have 90+ full time coaches compared to others having 3 or 4??

Plenty of counties don't have a centre of excellence or a state of the art sports complex like DCU.

threeball

omega man wrote: »

RedDevil55 wrote: »

Why would Dublin get any capital grants? They get free use of an 82,000 capacity stadium, which was paid for by everyone in the country. Meanwhile Pearse park in Longford needed to be repaired because of issues with the foundations. That is why they got a capital grant.

There is a clear difference with games development money.

Redevelopment of Parnell Park, new stadium maybe? I thought we shouldn’t be playing in croke Park for home matches..

Again we don’t even have a centre of excellence. The funding goes into kids for gods sake!

You don't need a centre of excellence. You have the run of UCD and the best facilities in the country. Access to medical and performance specialists there too all funded by the taxpayer. Stop making ridiculous arguments and poor mouthing.

rm75

ClanofLams wrote: »

Can’t look on phone but less than you I would guess.

You've 2633 posts on here, i've just over a hundred!

Still you've been wrong about everything else on this thread why break with tradition.

rm75

threeball wrote: »

You don't need a centre of excellence. You have the run of UCD and the best facilities in the country. Access to medical and performance specialists there too all funded by the taxpayer. Stop making ridiculous arguments and poor mouthing.

UCD? Dont Dublin train in DCU!

Pretty much sums up the ill informed nonsense on here.

beggars_bush

rm75 wrote: »

UCD? Dont Dublin train in DCU!

Pretty much sums up the ill informed nonsense on here.

DCUs facilities are probably better.
Better gyms anyway

beggars_bush

kyote00 wrote: »

Cork got 2.1m according to the GAA annual report !

Which included capital grants

It's not all coaching money

beggars_bush

omega man wrote: »

Did you actually read this?

One piece states: “Monaghan, for example, has a population of just 60,483 – so, in fact, its games development funding of €124,000 means it gets almost €2 per person, so about double what Dublin gets“.

But but population...

I also noted this beauty regarding capital grants: “While Dublin did not get any support under this heading, Cork’s cash under this heading included €1,333,334, with Laois getting €415,504 and Longford getting €1,065,196.”.

It goes on to say when grants are excluded Dublin gets the most funding. How convenient.

Dublin don't need to build anything

They make money off using Croker during the league, use 3rd level facilities and the GAA even conveniently built the national GAA centre up there as well

omega man

threeball wrote: »

You don't need a centre of excellence. You have the run of UCD and the best facilities in the country. Access to medical and performance specialists there too all funded by the taxpayer. Stop making ridiculous arguments and poor mouthing.

Pure nonsense post. Did you read that on Twitter.

Does the games development funding not reflect our population though? I keep hearing population is a significant advantage.

rm75

beggars_bush wrote: »

DCUs facilities are probably better.
Better gyms anyway

Kind of undermines the point however if the poster doesnt even know where they are based !

Beta Ray Bill

kyote00 wrote: »

The funding per registered club shows only marginal extra cash to Dublin...

Take the funding for the larger counties, divide by the number of registered clubs and it becomes clear that Dublin get less per club than a lot of the so called minnows.

Where in the name of Jaysis did ya pull those figures?

There's about 260 affiliated clubs in Cork, about 140 affiliated clubs in Dublin and around 100 each in Limerick and Antrim (they're the top 4)

The GAA website says there is around 2200 affiliated clubs in Ireland and around 2500 world wide

Tombo2001

Beta Ray Bill wrote: »

Regardless, something needs to change.
When the same team wins all the time, supporters get bored, and the situation gets worse for opposing teams knowing that it's near impossible for them to win.
People just wont bother playing, cause what's the point?

Disclaimer: I'm a Dub living on the Northside of Dublin

I think that's the nub of the issue.

The problem is that this blame game which I think is a very Irish thing.

The system is broken - so people don't say "how can we fix it?"...… they say "who do we blame for it".

I'm a bit sensitive about the whole "lets bash Dublin" thing, as though unlike yourself I amnt from Dublin, nonetheless I live in Dublin and I think overall (outside of GAA) Dublin receives less than it should as a % of total investment around the country considering the city's population and growth.

There is no doubt, both in GAA and in society overall - that Dublin is subsidising the rest of the country big style. Big time.

People banging on about how Dublin gets more than other counties 'from the GAA'. Where does the GAA get its revenue in the first place? Dublin matches have by far the biggest attendances of any games in the country.

And yet you have the double whammy where country people want to take money out of Dublin on the one hand, and at the same time whinge and whinge about how those lads in the city get it all.

So which is it - do people want to fix a problem.

And there is no doubt a problem with a Leinster Championship where the same team wins for 10/15/20 years in a row. Or for that matter a munster championship also.

Or do people just want to whinge.

rm75

Tombo2001 wrote: »

I think that's the nub of the issue.

The problem is that this blame game which I think is a very Irish thing.

The system is broken - so people don't say "how can we fix it?"...… they say "who do we blame for it".

I'm a bit sensitive about the whole "lets bash Dublin" thing, as though unlike yourself I amnt from Dublin, nonetheless I live in Dublin and I think overall (outside of GAA) Dublin receives less than it should as a % of total investment around the country considering the city's population and growth.

There is no doubt, both in GAA and in society overall - that Dublin is subsidising the rest of the country big style. Big time.

People banging on about how Dublin gets more than other counties 'from the GAA'. Where does the GAA get its revenue in the first place? Dublin matches have by far the biggest attendances of any games in the country.

And yet you have the double whammy where country people want to take money out of Dublin on the one hand, and at the same time whinge and whinge about how those lads in the city get it all.

So which is it - do people want to fix a problem.

And there is no doubt a problem with a Leinster Championship where the same team wins for 10/15/20 years in a row. Or for that matter a munster championship also.

Or do people just want to whinge.

True. Realistically some variant of the League will be the best way forward. League matches are generally relatively competitive . Expecting a Division 4 team to challenge a Div 1 team in the championship is unrealistic.

The Dublin issue is a red herring, historically 3/4 contenders for the AI would be above average. Assuming Kerry keep progressing , we'll have 2 which was the norm for 30 years when Connacht and Ulster were whipping boys. Up to the likes of Galway and Tyrone to up their game. Both are underperfoming.

Daz_

Dublin got 1,6 million in sponsorship alone. I don’t think this is even a credible debate anymore.

This 5 in a row will always have an * beside it and a question mark. It’s not greatness , it’s great financial management .

Paulzx

Daz_ wrote: »

Dublin got 1,6 million in sponsorship alone. I don’t think this is even a credible debate anymore.

This 5 in a row will always have an * beside it and a question mark. It’s not greatness , it’s great financial management .

.......so the players are all great accountants then? Not gifted footballers at the top of their game?

Jesus:rolleyes:

The high horse brigade

Controversial, but anyone in favour of scraping the all Ireland completely to make a proper all year long league with home and away fixtures without any knockout stages at the end?

beggars_bush

Paulzx wrote: »

.......so the players are all great accountants then? Not gifted footballers at the top of their game?

Jesus:rolleyes:

have the Dublin footballers ever had to run a fundraiser to bring in some money to cover hotel costs or training expenses?

many county panels have to do this

threeball

omega man wrote: »

threeball wrote: »

You don't need a centre of excellence. You have the run of UCD and the best facilities in the country. Access to medical and performance specialists there too all funded by the taxpayer. Stop making ridiculous arguments and poor mouthing.

Pure nonsense post. Did you read that on Twitter.

Does the games development funding not reflect our population though? I keep hearing population is a significant advantage.

So Niall Moyna and others have been lying in interviews they gave speaking about their work with the Dublin team?

DCU or UCD who gives a sh1t, it's still top quality infrastructure paid for by the university which Dublin gets to use and not pay for. Any county with a centre of excellence must staff it and pay for upkeep. Dublin do not.

Tombo2001

threeball wrote: »

So Niall Moyna and others have been lying in interviews they gave speaking about their work with the Dublin team?

DCU or UCD who gives a sh1t, it's still top quality infrastructure paid for by the university which Dublin gets to use and not pay for. Any county with a centre of excellence must staff it and pay for upkeep. Dublin do not.

Pretty clear that you have no clue where Dublin train.

There's a couple of fields and a changing rooms.

You'll often have the footballers, hurlers, men and women training there the same time.

State of the art.

Should the showers be taken away.....? Would that even it up for you?

rm75

threeball wrote: »

So Niall Moyna and others have been lying in interviews they gave speaking about their work with the Dublin team?

DCU or UCD who gives a sh1t, it's still top quality infrastructure paid for by the university which Dublin gets to use and not pay for. Any county with a centre of excellence must staff it and pay for upkeep. Dublin do not.

Its almost not worth engaging so ill informed is the commentry. We'd regularly have a panel member at club fundraisers.

Where do Limerick train?

Happyilylost

Tombo2001 wrote: »

I think that's the nub of the issue.

The problem is that this blame game which I think is a very Irish thing.

The system is broken - so people don't say "how can we fix it?"...… they say "who do we blame for it".

I'm a bit sensitive about the whole "lets bash Dublin" thing, as though unlike yourself I amnt from Dublin, nonetheless I live in Dublin and I think overall (outside of GAA) Dublin receives less than it should as a % of total investment around the country considering the city's population and growth.

There is no doubt, both in GAA and in society overall - that Dublin is subsidising the rest of the country big style. Big time.

People banging on about how Dublin gets more than other counties 'from the GAA'. Where does the GAA get its revenue in the first place? Dublin matches have by far the biggest attendances of any games in the country.

And yet you have the double whammy where country people want to take money out of Dublin on the one hand, and at the same time whinge and whinge about how those lads in the city get it all.

So which is it - do people want to fix a problem.

And there is no doubt a problem with a Leinster Championship where the same team wins for 10/15/20 years in a row. Or for that matter a munster championship also.

Or do people just want to whinge.

Tipperary All Ireland Hurling Champions

Munster Championship

VS Cork 30.274
VS Waterford 22.883
VS Clare 18.216 (restricted capacity)
VS Limerick 39.115

Munster Final 44.052

Prem Quarter Final VS Laois 44.000?

All Ireland Semi Final 55.001

All Ireland Final 82.300

Average 41.980

Dublin All Ireland Champions 2019

VS Louth 14.380
VS Kildare 36.126 (double header!!)
VS Meath 47.027
VS Tyrone 15.315 (was this capacity?)
VS Cork 30.214
VS Roscommon 36.530
Vs Mayo 82.300 (can't find attendance think sell out)
Vs Kerry 82.300

Average 43.024

Dr. Bre

Daz_ wrote: »

Dublin got 1,6 million in sponsorship alone. I don’t think this is even a credible debate anymore.

This 5 in a row will always have an * beside it and a question mark. It’s not greatness , it’s great financial management .

Let’s just put an * beside anyone who wins in sport we don’t like..

omega man

Daz_ wrote: »

Dublin got 1,6 million in sponsorship alone. I don’t think this is even a credible debate anymore.

This 5 in a row will always have an * beside it and a question mark. It’s not greatness , it’s great financial management .

Ah and there you go folks, if you dig deep enough it’s just a general dislike of Dublin and often from people living and working here. I’ve no doubt this isn’t a view shared by real (non dublin) gaa people.

I’ll just point out that the bitterness makes the 5 in a row even sweeter!

rm75

omega man wrote: »

Ah and there you go folks, if you dig deep enough it’s just a general dislike of Dublin and often from people living and working here. I’ve no doubt this isn’t a view shared by real (non dublin) gaa people.

I’ll just point out that the bitterness makes the 5 in a row even sweeter!

You have to admire their commitment ! If they put half as much effort into their local clubs as they do whinging on here they'd probably be racking up all irelands.

the "laziest men alive" as Dara O'Se puts it here !

https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/gaelic-games/darragh-%C3%B3-s%C3%A9-if-tyrone-put-as-much-into-football-as-the-dark-arts-they-d-be-some-team-1.3985286

There used to be a fella locally who was known around the place as the laziest man alive. The lengths this lad would go to in order to avoid work were actually admirable after a while. We were talking about him one day coming home in the car when somebody made the very valid point that the effort our man put into not doing work was actually greater than the amount of effort the work itself would take. You’d nearly applaud the ingenuity.

RedDevil55

omega man wrote: »

Ah and there you go folks, if you dig deep enough it’s just a general dislike of Dublin and often from people living and working here. I’ve no doubt this isn’t a view shared by real (non dublin) gaa people.

I’ll just point out that the bitterness makes the 5 in a row even sweeter!

I see you declined to answer my 3 questions earlier, instead arguing over DCU and UCD. I'll try again...

So you accept Dublin don't need any capital grants while using Croke Park and the numbers in your previous post are irrelevant?

Do you think the current disparity in Games development funding is right?

How is the intercounty game going to be viable in future when Dublin have 90+ full time coaches compared to others having 3 or 4??

Tombo2001

Happyilylost wrote: »

Tipperary All Ireland Hurling Champions

Munster Championship

VS Cork 30.274
VS Waterford 22.883
VS Clare 18.216 (restricted capacity)
VS Limerick 39.115

Munster Final 44.052

Prem Quarter Final VS Laois 44.000?

All Ireland Semi Final 55.001

All Ireland Final 82.300

Average 41.980

Dublin All Ireland Champions 2019

VS Louth 14.380
VS Kildare 36.126 (double header!!)
VS Meath 47.027
VS Tyrone 15.315 (was this capacity?)
VS Cork 30.214
VS Roscommon 36.530
Vs Mayo 82.300 (can't find attendance think sell out)
Vs Kerry 82.300

Average 43.024

Fair point.

The Louth and Tyrone games were sell outs in respective grounds - so its unfair to include these as averages.

In other words, cant give out that Dublin shouldnt be in Croke Park, and then be saying they cant draw a large crowd on the basis of games outside of Croke Park.

Also, you have left out the replay crowd.

For the games the played in Croker this championship there was an average of 56'000.

And dont forget also that the women brought 56000 to the LGFA final also. So thats 56'000 over 9 games. Put an average ticket price of €40 on that - and its
€20mn.

Then you've got the league games, there were 35000 for the Mayo match for instance. And the Hurlers.

And that for example Dublin have been delivering these big crowds in Croke Park year in year out, in the League and in the Championship. Which Tipp dont always do.

Having said that - I take the point.

Its a big time sore point for me personally that I went to every game in Croke Park up to the final this year, and was unable to get a ticket for either final. The Cork game in particular was a poor crowd.

I know thats the system, but it just rankles with me that there were so many Dubs fans who werent bothered with the qualifier games and leinster games, but can click their fingers and get a ticket for the big match.

Tombo2001

RedDevil55 wrote: »

I see you declined to answer my 3 questions earlier, instead arguing over DCU and UCD. I'll try again...

So you accept Dublin don't need any capital grants while using Croke Park and the numbers in your previous post are irrelevant?

Do you think the current disparity in Games development funding is right?

How is the intercounty game going to be viable in future when Dublin have 90+ full time coaches compared to others having 3 or 4??

Can you show us the actual stats on this

How many full time coaches are in Dublin, exactly?

And how many in other counties, exactly?

[Deleted User]

Beta Ray Bill wrote: »

Where in the name of Jaysis did ya pull those figures?

There's about 260 affiliated clubs in Cork, about 140 affiliated clubs in Dublin and around 100 each in Limerick and Antrim (they're the top 4)

The GAA website says there is around 2200 affiliated clubs in Ireland and around 2500 world wide

I was thinking the same, the number of clubs per county is hilariously inaccurate!

Look we're going around in circles again.

Key points:

1. Dublin have received and continue to receive millions more in funding than every other county. Both from the GAA, from the government of the 2000s, from their sponsors. No-one else can compete with this.

2. As money matters in sport, this funding has helped them win more titles than would otherwise have been possible. Gormdubhgorm and Gachla have posted some charts showing an absolute explosion in Dublin titles since 2000 relative to the period before then.

3. Dublin also have other advantages- population and playing all consequential games in their de facto home pitch.

All of this is well established. So, this thread shouldn't even really be about whether Dublin are unfairly favoured, it should be what the GAA can do to help manage this problem before it destroys the All Ireland series as a competitive spectacle. Look at how Leinster has gone to the dogs since the financial doping started (combined with other factors including the other unfair advantages mentioned in point 3)- we're already well down that path for the All Ireland championship.

As mentioned before, I think the only effective measure will be to split their inter- county team into 4.

Tombo2001

gaffer91 wrote: »

I was thinking the same, the number of clubs per county is hilariously inaccurate!

Look we're going around in circles again.

Key points:

1. Dublin have received and continue to receive millions more in funding than every other county. Both from the GAA, from the government of the 2000s, from their sponsors. No-one else can compete with this.

2. As money matters in sport, this funding has helped them win more titles than would otherwise have been possible. Gormdubhgorm and Gachla have posted some charts showing an absolute explosion in Dublin titles since 2000 relative to the period before then.

3. Dublin also have other advantages- population and playing all consequential games in their de facto home pitch.

All of this is well established. So, this thread shouldn't even really be about whether Dublin are unfairly favoured, it should be what the GAA can do to help manage this problem before it destroys the All Ireland series as a competitive spectacle. Look at how Leinster has gone to the dogs since the financial doping started (combined with other factors including the other unfair advantages mentioned in point 3)- we're already well down that path for the All Ireland championship.

As mentioned before, I think the only effective measure will be to split their inter- county team into 4.

Why is it that you identify disproportionate funding as the primary problem, but you don't see a reversal of the disproportionate funding as the primary solution.

That's what I don't get.

If you think funding is the problem, then rebalance the funding.

But you aren't saying that.

ArielAtom

threeball wrote: »

So Niall Moyna and others have been lying in interviews they gave speaking about their work with the Dublin team?

DCU or UCD who gives a sh1t, it's still top quality infrastructure paid for by the university which Dublin gets to use and not pay for. Any county with a centre of excellence must staff it and pay for upkeep. Dublin do not.

So you honestly think that any venue Dublin train in is gifted to them and they don't pay the going rate to rent it? Are you really saying that?

AFAIK they train at a club ground for most of the season. They do not use Abbotstown, that is used by clubs from the surrounding areas mostly.

Tombo2001

A related point.

Take Dublin games out of Croke Park.

Put them say in Parnell Park instead, or play all the games in Dr Cullen park.

Revenue to the GAA drop instantly by €15mn per annum. Don't forget that its not just gate receipts - corporate box revenues are huge for the GAA, and who is paying for a corporate box if there are no games on show.

That's almost 50% of all the operating surplus in the GAA - so the total budget for Games Development, Stadium Development, Coaching for the entire country drops by half.

That's what you are asking for.