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Brexit discussion thread X (Please read OP before posting)

johnnyskeleton

This is the tenth incarnation of our Brexit discussion thread, so Ive copied ACDs comments from the last thread to here. Same warnings etc still apply:

As we are approaching the critical end of March October 2019 period, please bear the following in mind before posting:
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Strazdas

SeaBreezes wrote: »

I wonder if this is all deliberate. He asked for the meeting, he set it up and would likely know in advance the setup for press conference. No new plans, just time wasting and frustrating the EU team, Suspicious timing after a weekend editorial that says 'the angrier I get the stronger I get' and now, magically there is something the UK media can all get angry about...

I'm convinced Johnson's talk of progress and a deal is a total bluff, a smokescreen. If there was really something happening, we would be hearing lots of rumours about it from the EU.

For Forks Sake

Fairly clear thread here from the NY Times EU correspondent, reading between the lines would seem that the UK wanted the press conference brought indoors to (a) avoid the protesting Brits and (b) so they could cherrypick the journos that could attend. Didn't get their way so off they went.

Capt'n Midnight

Peregrinus wrote: »

Nerdy nitpick: Pandora wasn't in the box; it was she who opened the box.

Pandora let hope out

May's self imposed red lines ruled it out

Tell me how

Strazdas wrote: »

I'm convinced Johnson's talk of progress and a deal is a total bluff, a smokescreen. If there was really something happening, we would be hearing lots of rumours about it from the EU.

The only thing you can be absolutely sure of at this point is that Johnson is bluffing.

Jeremy Corbyn should be like a final year performing arts student and using this time to draft and prepare the deliver of a 7 to 10 minute speech, the likes of would go down in history, for the HoC whenever it returns outlining the shambles of the Brexit negotiators approach for the last 3 years.

If they were self-analytical enough, they'd be mortified for what they have done.

The EU came out through one of their negotiators and called Johnson's claims Bullsh*t. That at a time when Ian Duncan Smyth, Farage, Johnson, Katya Adler et al all said that the EU would be clamouring to step back from their position.

This emperor is a naturist.

LeinsterDub

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

Pandora let hope out

May's self imposed red lines ruled it out

She closed it just in time for hope to remain. At which point she was promptly called an enemy of the people

J Mysterio

GM228 wrote: »

Some updates/details for the Supreme Court cases starting tomorrow...

Two of those QC with Irish names.

MrMusician18

Tell me how wrote: »

The only thing you can be absolutely sure of at this point is that Johnson is bluffing.

Jeremy Corbyn should be like a final year performing arts student and using this time to draft and prepare the deliver of a 7 to 10 minute speech, the likes of would go down in history, for the HoC whenever it returns outlining the shambles of the Brexit negotiators approach for the last 3 years.

If they were self-analytical enough, they'd be mortified for what they have done.

The EU came out through one of their negotiators and called Johnson's claims Bullsh*t. That at a time when Ian Duncan Smyth, Farage, Johnson, Katya Adler et al all said that the EU would be clamouring to step back from their position.

This emperor is a naturist.

HoC speeches won't change anything, and haven't for decades. In fact it's hard to see what would make a difference at this stage now that opinions are so entrenched.

Strazdas

Tell me how wrote: »

The only thing you can be absolutely sure of at this point is that Johnson is bluffing.

Jeremy Corbyn should be like a final year performing arts student and using this time to draft and prepare the deliver of a 7 to 10 minute speech, the likes of would go down in history, for the HoC whenever it returns outlining the shambles of the Brexit negotiators approach for the last 3 years.

If they were self-analytical enough, they'd be mortified for what they have done.

The EU came out through one of their negotiators and called Johnson's claims Bullsh*t. That at a time when Ian Duncan Smyth, Farage, Johnson, Katya Adler et al all said that the EU would be clamouring to step back from their position.

This emperor is a naturist.

His regular visits to EU leaders seem to be a total joke, nothing ever happens at them. And yet he keeps repeating "We are moving ever closer to a deal". He is lying to the British public.

Mr.Nice Guy

J Mysterio wrote: »

I understand what you are saying, and I agree with your analysis of how this will be perceived by many in the UK, but have you considered that maybe Bettel doesnt give a sh1t? We are past the rubicon now.

For so long the Brexit conversation has been about moderating things for British taste and the British audience, but that was when a deal was still negotiable and May was actually putting effort in and trying things in parliament. Johnson has no intention of doing this. He is offering little and is like a bull in paliament. Why should Bettel or anyone else moderate themselves now for Johnson?

It is just another angle on the 'give Boris something to take home' line. He deserves nothing, has earned nothing... Other than contempt. What is he offering? Bettel has an audience too.

And Bettel, he actually meant what he was talking about today, he had some passion to bring to it. This is in direct contrast to Boris someone who is woodenly acting out some pantomine according to an awful script. If he had the courage of his convictions of course he would have spoken today. He has went from Hulk to coward in one day.

If it's the case he doesn't give a sh*t then he is doing Ireland no favours, seeing as we are the EU state most exposed in the event of a No Deal scenario. His comments today suggested he was on Ireland's side, and I'm inclined to believe that, but that requires a smarter approach than what he offered today. By all means say this stuff behind closed doors to all and sundry, but a more savvy approach is needed in public. There are cynical games being played on the Brexit side and the EU 27 need to be wise to it. Today was the first time I sensed this was not the case.

As to why bother being moderate, and why not just be contemptuous towards them, simply put because that plays right into Johnson's hands. That helps him domestically in the message he wants to sell. Why give him what he wants when he can be hoisted by his own petard? Merkel showed the way to handle him last month. All smiles, diplomatic language, and wait for him to walk into a trap of his own non-logic.

To me it's a bit like how the Irish government deals with the DUP. Of course we'd instinctively love our government to hit back at them whenever they make their ludicrous claims and use insulting language, but to do so would be to dance to their tune. That would help them with their electorate as they feed off such confrontations. Far better to let it slide and not give them the satisfaction.

MrMusician18

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

Pandora let hope out

May's self imposed red lines ruled it out

To nitpick further, Pandora let the evils of the world out of her box (jar), only hope remained

Tell me how

MrMusician18 wrote: »

HoC speeches won't change anything, and haven't for decades. In fact it's hard to see what would make a difference at this stage now that opinions are so entrenched.

Certainly won't in terms of Brexit, but, if it was done right, it would co-ordinate and galvanise the opposition ahead of the General Election.

(I don't believe Corbyn has the capacity to do this however)

J Mysterio

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

If it's the case he doesn't give a sh*t then he is doing Ireland no favours, seeing as we are the EU state most exposed in the event of a No Deal scenario. His comments today suggested he was on Ireland's side, and I'm inclined to believe that, but that requires a smarter approach than what he offered today. By all means say this stuff behind closed doors to all and sundry, but a more savvy approach is needed in public. There are cynical games being played on the Brexit side and the EU 27 need to be wise to it. Today was the first time I sensed this was not the case.

As to why bother being moderate, and why not just be contemptuous towards them, simply put because that plays right into Johnson's hands. That helps him domestically in the message he wants to sell. Why give him what he wants when he can be hoisted by his own petard? Merkel showed the way to handle him last month. All smiles, diplomatic language, and wait for him to walk into a trap of his own non-logic.

To me it's a bit like how the Irish government deals with the DUP. Of course we'd instinctively love our government to hit back at them whenever they make their ludicrous claims and use insulting language, but to do so would be to dance to their tune. That would help them with their electorate as they feed off such confrontations. Far better to let it slide and not give them the satisfaction.

You're missing the point im making. We all know about the spin in the UK, but maybe some EU leaders have had enough of this idea that we should moderate ourselves to placate the UK.

The ball has been in their court for some time. Nothing has happened since May's attempts to get the WA passed. Boris is completely belligerent. Many seem to still think the EU will just cave and break the fundamental principles of the union for the UK just because. Well, no. Bettel was right in everything he said and did today, and I found it refreshing.

Twice in as many weeks we have had leaders say it straight to this charlatan. No more playing games - this is the serious position we are in - if the UK refuse the negotiated WA, it's incumbent upon them to put forward a satisfactory solution. No more kid gloves, and tough sh1t if the UK domestic audience don't like it. And yes, even if that plays for Johnson's short lived 'popularity' and - yes - also if that plays into the hands of the UK tabloids, they will lie anyway.

I'm glad to see Johnson confronted with the reality: by EU leaders, by small protests at press conferences, and by weird old guys in depressed Northern UK towns too. Johnson and the UK have to face the facts.

Imreoir2

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

If it's the case he doesn't give a sh*t then he is doing Ireland no favours, seeing as we are the EU state most exposed in the event of a No Deal scenario. His comments today suggested he was on Ireland's side, and I'm inclined to believe that, but that requires a smarter approach than what he offered today. By all means say this stuff behind closed doors to all and sundry, but a more savvy approach is needed in public. There are cynical games being played on the Brexit side and the EU 27 need to be wise to it. Today was the first time I sensed this was not the case.

As to why bother being moderate, and why not just be contemptuous towards them, simply put because that plays right into Johnson's hands. That helps him domestically in the message he wants to sell. Why give him what he wants when he can be hoisted by his own petard? Merkel showed the way to handle him last month. All smiles, diplomatic language, and wait for him to walk into a trap of his own non-logic.

To me it's a bit like how the Irish government deals with the DUP. Of course we'd instinctively love our government to hit back at them whenever they make their ludicrous claims and use insulting language, but to do so would be to dance to their tune. That would help them with their electorate as they feed off such confrontations. Far better to let it slide and not give them the satisfaction.

I think you are vastly overestimating the importance of this kind of thing. Todays events will be forgotten next week and will matter not a jot to the intentions or calculations of the main players. The people who support Brexit, and esecially a no-deal Brexit already believe the worst of the EU. An EU leader making evident their frustration, or an EU leader on their best behaviour is not going to change this one way or the other. The actions of the EU did not create the toxic atmosphere in the UK and tip-toeing around the UK is not going to help defuse that atmosphere now.

The UKs actions over the last few years, and especially the last few months have been downright disgraceful, they are lucky they are not facing a much greater backlash from the EU than the leader of a small nation telling the truth in their presance.

The UK is going to have to face some harsh realities in the near future, lets not pretend otherwise for fear that the truth will offend them.

Zubeneschamali

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

If it's the case he doesn't give a sh*t then he is doing Ireland no favours, seeing as we are the EU state most exposed in the event of a No Deal scenario.

But if they are going out No Deal, and all of this is just to try and blame someone else, then the louder and clearer the EU side say that the UK have presented no proposals and are not negotiating, the better.

Patting Johnson on the head and sending him back with some scraps to show Westminster is just letting him run down the clock while lying to the UK public.

He does not have the power to get a deal through Parliament unless he makes a giant U turn. So, let's see him do that before we start humouring him.

Zubeneschamali

J Mysterio wrote: »

I'm glad to see Johnson confronted with the reality: by EU leaders

In fact, I'm sure this is the real reason Johnson skipped the presser beside Bettel, he knew he'd get a tongue lashing in front of the press and cameras and he didn't enjoy it in Dublin, classical refs and all.

Strazdas

J Mysterio wrote: »

You're missing the point im making. We all know about the spin in the UK, but maybe some EU leaders have had enough of this idea that we should moderate ourselves to placate the UK.

The ball has been in their court for some time. Nothing has happened since May's attempts to get the WA passed. Boris is completely belligerent. Many seem to still think the EU will just cave and break the fundamental principles of the union for the UK just because. Well, no. Bettel was right in everything he said and did today, and I found it refreshing.

Twice in as many weeks we have had leaders say it straight to this charlatan. No more playing games - this is the serious position we are in - if the UK refuse the negotiated WA, it's incumbent upon them to put forward a satisfactory solution. No more kid gloves, and tough sh1t if the UK domestic audience don't like it. And yes, even if that plays for Johnson's short lived 'popularity' and - yes - also if that plays into the hands of the UK tabloids, they will lie anyway.

I'm glad to see Johnson confronted with the reality: by EU leaders, by small protests at press conferences, and by weird old guys in depressed Northern UK towns too. Johnson and the UK have to face the facts.

The Brexit brigade on Twitter seem to be mostly hostile and aggressive. Anger is their default setting. I don't think the EU should be overly concerned about upsetting them.

Christy42

briany wrote: »

As much as I'm loath to say this, I can see Boris's and Laura's point. It would be virtually impossible for him to hold a press conference and look statesmanlike when you have protesters chanting right in his face, and it completely nullifies all chances of the presser looking any way even-handed, before even a word is said. If Bettel had come to Britain, and had to do a presser with a loud group of Brexiteers chanting away only feet from him, would've he been enthusiastic?

That said, it was a dumb tweet to put out.

Would it have been worse than the house of commons?

I didn't ask for Boris to be enthusiastic but at a certain point he will have to learn that not everyi is done to please him.

Calina

bilston wrote: »

quokula wrote: »

https://twitter.com/bbclaurak/status/1173607985911873542

The BBC really is nothing more than a Tory propoganda distributor these days.

I'm not a Boris Johnson fan, but maybe he had a point. It would have been chaotic if he had taken part with protestors there cheering the Luxembourg PM and probably booing him. No politician in their right mind would have taken part.

The protests were mainly by British citizens resident in Luxembourg and anecdotally, they are not happy with UK support or communication for their position since the Brexit vote. The numbers taking dual nationality has gone through the roof and represent an increase of over 800% locally.

When you are arguing on Johnson's side here, the truth is you are looking at things through a British prism. Even more so than Ireland, Luxembourg is a country where the senior politicians walk among us as bog standard human beings. Bettel did the press conference despite a large number of largely foreign protesters because that is his job. Johnson did not do it because a large number of his own citizens were protesting despite it also being his job. From outside the UK bubble, the optics of this are terrible. Johnson is afraid of his own citizens. Bettel is not, and explicitly recognised the right to protest. This is something the UK has been working to curtail btw.

Politically Bettel is an extremely sharp operator. He is also extremely bright and in general, he is super charming. But he does not suffer fools gladly. Johnson has been bringing nothing of substance to the table of trying to find an agreement.

48% of the people who live in Luxembourg were not born here. The place also absorbs the equivalent of a quarter of its population daily in people who cross the border to work here. The context of the UK moaning about freedom of movement plays badly with the UK citizens who moved here and with the locals.

Personal view is that Johnson, if he was any kind of a leader at all, should have done the presser. He didn't and to be frank, a lot of the UK population don't see him as a leader. We are way past the point of pretending. The EU leaders owe more to 450 million EU citizens than they do to barely half the voters of the Brexit referendum in 2016. I don't think appeasing the 17 million constantly is in either their interest or ours. Reality matters.

Peregrinus

J Mysterio wrote: »

Two of those QC with Irish names.

One of them, Ronan Lavery, is Irish. Aidan O'Neill is a Scot though (obviously) of Irish descent.

[Deleted User]

Just like the UK is powering ahead with this facade of a no deal possibility, the EU seem to have started to make an extension seem unlikely to be agreed my all members if it's requested. Imo, the latter is more likely to actually happen.

pauldla

Calina wrote: »

The protests were mainly by British citizens resident in Luxembourg and anecdotally, they are not happy with UK support or communication for their position since the Brexit vote. The numbers taking dual nationality has gone through the roof and represent an increase of over 800% locally.

When you are arguing on Johnson's side here, the truth is you are looking at things through a British prism. Even more so than Ireland, Luxembourg is a country where the senior politicians walk among us as bog standard human beings. Bettel did the press conference despite a large number of largely foreign protesters because that is his job. Johnson did not do it because a large number of his own citizens were protesting despite it also being his job. From outside the UK bubble, the optics of this are terrible. Johnson is afraid of his own citizens. Bettel is not, and explicitly recognised the right to protest. This is something the UK has been working to curtail btw.

Politically Bettel is an extremely sharp operator. He is also extremely bright and in general, he is super charming. But he does not suffer fools gladly. Johnson has been bringing nothing of substance to the table of trying to find an agreement.

48% of the people who live in Luxembourg were not born here. The place also absorbs the equivalent of a quarter of its population daily in people who cross the border to work here. The context of the UK moaning about freedom of movement plays badly with the UK citizens who moved here and with the locals.

Personal view is that Johnson, if he was any kind of a leader at all, should have done the presser. He didn't and to be frank, a lot of the UK population don't see him as a leader. We are way past the point of pretending. The EU leaders owe more to 450 million EU citizens than they do to barely half the voters of the Brexit referendum in 2016. I don't think appeasing the 17 million constantly is in either their interest or ours. Reality matters.

Had a quick look through some of the Brexit groups on FB (Leave Means Leave and Brexit News, to be exact) and the general consensus there is that Johnson did the right thing by not speaking, the 'press conference' was a set-up, and Luxembourg don't produce anything and only sponge off the UK etc etc (things go downhill from there). It's very hard to reach out to that mindset.

Enzokk

The humiliation that May had to endure at the hands of the EU at one of the summits (I believe) was also supposed to shore up some support for her out of sympathy and her reaction was going to be a catalyst, but nothing changed because the facts didn't change. Johnson is still a liar and cannot be trusted, just one that was shown up for a coward in public whereas before he could bluff his way around a little.

As for those facts, Faisal Islam has a thread about business and their reaction to no-deal,

https://twitter.com/faisalislam/status/1173700895336521731?s=20

Uncertainty reigns in the UK and we know business doesn't like that. He goes on in the thread to look at research The IOD (Institute of Directors) has done and there are some interesting tweets.

https://twitter.com/faisalislam/status/1173707244053118977?s=20

That is on relocation's, seems that just about 2/3rds aren't planning to relocate but the rest are planning to, have already drawn up plans or are in the process of doing so.

Infini

pauldla wrote: »

Had a quick look through some of the Brexit groups on FB (Leave Means Leave and Brexit News, to be exact) and the general consensus there is that Johnson did the right thing by not speaking, the 'press conference' was a set-up, and Luxembourg don't produce anything and only sponge off the UK etc etc (things go downhill from there). It's very hard to reach out to that mindset.

In fairness the truth is with those mindsets no amount of reasoning or logic will reach them because they refuse to listen. These are basically the kinds of idiots that wont cop on until they're forced to confront the reality and consequences of their own ignorance and stupidity. Its only when that happens that you can force some sense of sanity back into them because any excuses are met with the "you were warned and you didnt listen" approach and they can't escape that reality of their own choosing.

I'm honestly not sure the UK will be still in the EU after October at least so long as Boris is around as this whole debacle is down to the Tories and of course Farage and comrades. The only thing that might force a change of course is if theree a serious run on Sterling in the week or 2 prior to Brexit or buisnesses decide to pull out in large numbers prior to it. Honestly serious events that would hit the UK economy hard but still early enough before they cross the point of no return.

beggars_bush

Enzokk wrote: »

The humiliation that May had to endure at the hands of the EU at one of the summits (I believe) was also supposed to shore up some support for her out of sympathy and her reaction was going to be a catalyst, but nothing changed because the facts didn't change. Johnson is still a liar and cannot be trusted, just one that was shown up for a coward in public whereas before he could bluff his way around a little.

As for those facts, Faisal Islam has a thread about business and their reaction to no-deal,

https://twitter.com/faisalislam/status/1173700895336521731?s=20

Uncertainty reigns in the UK and we know business doesn't like that. He goes on in the thread to look at research The IOD (Institute of Directors) has done and there are some interesting tweets.

https://twitter.com/faisalislam/status/1173707244053118977?s=20

That is on relocation's, seems that just about 2/3rds aren't planning to relocate but the rest are planning to, have already drawn up plans or are in the process of doing so.

they just won't care

DOCARCH

beggars_bush wrote: »

they just won't care

F**k business!

Brexit is definitely a cult! Brainwashing by the elite/those who stand to gain most.

Dytalus

Strazdas wrote: »

The Brexit brigade on Twitter seem to be mostly hostile and aggressive. Anger is their default setting. I don't think the EU should be overly concerned about upsetting them.

I recall an episode of the West Wing, wherein President Bartlet's communications team are having trouble with his re-election campaign. The GOP are calling out Bartlet for being an over-educated snob, and Bartlet's refusal to act dumb and uninterested to counter it makes things worse.

Eventually his Comms Director realises that it's a gift that the Republicans irredeemably think the President is an educated snob - because now he can be.

The UK press, and the Leave campaigners, and the Leave supporters...they're all going to twist whatever the EU says. You see it on Twitter and comments sections all the time. When the EU stands by Ireland and the single market, it's "bullying" the UK. It's leaders are being "rude and snobbish". When the EU acts conciliatory and friendly, it's "giving up" or "abandoning Ireland". They already have their talking points, and they already think the EU's leaders are bullies, and snobs, and worse.

So why bother covering up the frustrations? They already think we're elitist and rude regardless of what happens...why bother tip toeing around them to try and avoid upsetting them further? Call them out, show their leaders up for being the careless, heartless fools they are. You're never going to sway the Leave voters anyway.

Thargor

Listen to this stupidity:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2019/sep/16/brexit-latest-news-boris-johnson-talks-juncker-eu-must-show-flexibility-says-raab-ahead-of-boris-johnsons-key-meeting-with-juncker-live-news-latest-news

Johnson also insisted he wouldn’t delay the UK’s withdrawal from the European Union on 31 October, should no deal be struck by then, while also promising to abide by the law requiring him to request a delay in those same circumstances.

He failed to explain how he intended to align these apparently contradictory positions. Here’s a portion of that exchange:

Kuenssberg asked Johnson how he intended to “get round” that law, noting that he has said he will not delay Brexit. He replied:

I won’t. Here’s, here’s what I want. I will uphold the constitution I will obey the law but we will come out on October 31st.

Kuenssberg again asked the prime minister: “But how, if MPs have changed the law to stop you doing that?” He responded:

We’re going to come out on October 31st and it’s vital that people understand that the UK will not extend. We won’t go on remaining in the EU beyond October. What on earth is the point? Do you know how much it costs?

Once again, Kuenssberg asked Johnson: “But how will you do that if MPs have changed the law to stop you? Are you looking for a way round the law. Because that’s what it sounds like?” The prime minister again replied:

We will obey the law but we will come out and we will come out, I should say, on October 31st.

Kuenssberg tried yet again, asking: “But that means you are looking for a way round the law. I mean to be really clear about this, Parliament has changed the law to make it almost impossible to take us out of the EU without a deal at the end of October. But you say that you will not do it. That means that you must be looking for a way around the law?” Johnson replied:

Well you know those are your words. What we’re going to do is come out on October 31st deal or no deal.

Peregrinus

It means - if it means anything - that he has, or thinks he has, a strategy which will prevent the Benn Bill from having its intended effect and result in an extension, but he doesn't want to disclose that strategy in case, once people know what it is, they will find a way to counter it.

CelticRambler

Christy42 wrote: »

Would it have been worse than the house of commons?

Imreoir2 wrote:

I think you are vastly overestimating the importance of this kind of thing. Todays events will be forgotten next week and will matter not a jot to the intentions or calculations of the main players.

Yes, but ... no, not really. The context of this no-show will be forgotten about, but that image of an empty lectern will live on forever. Every time Johnson uses the "chicken" insult towards Corbyn from now on, he'll risks having it thrown back at him:
"You're calling me chicken? Who's the big man who ran away from a handful of protestors in Luxembourg? Let me see if I can find that photo ... We knew you were so scared of your fellow MPs that you shut down Parilament; now we know that you're nothing but a sissy who'll run away from 'a 3-month old girl & a golden retriever puppy called Luna'"

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

By all means say this stuff behind closed doors to all and sundry, but a more savvy approach is needed in public. There are cynical games being played on the Brexit side and the EU 27 need to be wise to it. Today was the first time I sensed this was not the case.

Bettel made reference to a flaw in the Remain campaign in the UK, one which I have previously said applied also to the EU: that not enough was said loudly and clearly about how and why the EU was a force for good in the lives of ordinary UK citizens. Even last night, Peter Bone was on Sky still saying how the EU will do a deal at the last minute ... :mad: There is probably nothing the EU can do now that'll change the minds of the "17.4m" - but press conferences like Varadkar's and Bettel's (and Verhofstat's tweets) are one way of getting "this stuff" out from behind closed doors.

Remember: for another 44 days, the 50m Brits who didn't vote or Brexit are EU citizens too.

Strazdas

Dytalus wrote: »

I recall an episode of the West Wing, wherein President Bartlet's communications team are having trouble with his re-election campaign. The GOP are calling out Bartlet for being an over-educated snob, and Bartlet's refusal to act dumb and uninterested to counter it makes things worse.

Eventually his Comms Director realises that it's a gift that the Republicans irredeemably think the President is an educated snob - because now he can be.

The UK press, and the Leave campaigners, and the Leave supporters...they're all going to twist whatever the EU says. You see it on Twitter and comments sections all the time. When the EU stands by Ireland and the single market, it's "bullying" the UK. It's leaders are being "rude and snobbish". When the EU acts conciliatory and friendly, it's "giving up" or "abandoning Ireland". They already have their talking points, and they already think the EU's leaders are bullies, and snobs, and worse.

So why bother covering up the frustrations? They already think we're elitist and rude regardless of what happens...why bother tip toeing around them to try and avoid upsetting them further? Call them out, show their leaders up for being the careless, heartless fools they are. You're never going to sway the Leave voters anyway.

There's a bit of a siege mentality with them. They hate anyone who is opposed to Brexit and who doesn't believe in it. That would be half the UK and most of the rest of the world.