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Cork developments

snotboogie

I noticed that the Limerick equivalent is a very popular thread over on their forum so I thought I might get one going here. To kick things off I'll list the bigger current projects I can think of:

Under Construction

Navigation Square: Four building office development on the former Navigation House site on Albert Quay. 310,000 sq ft of office space for up to 3000 employees. First phase to be completed Feb 19'

89-90 South Mall: 50,000 sq ft office, 5 storey office building.To be completed in December 18'

Dalata Hotel South Mall: Six storey hotel, 165 beds. To be completed in December 18'

Various Student Accommodation: Western Road and Beamish site are under construction, Crows Nest has planning and should start soon, Square Deal is facing appeals, Coca-Cola site on the Carrigrohane Road has had planning for over a year but nothing has happened? O’Riordans Joinery, Gillen House on Farranlea Road, Model Farm Road/Melbourne Road and Copely Street are all at various stages of planning and/or limbo.

Planning/Appealed

Horgan's Quay: Office Space for 5,000 employees, 200 apartments, 136 bed hotel and 3000 sq metres of restaurants and retail. Got planning permission in March but it was appealed by Port of Cork. Uncertain when the final decision will be. Construction on the Hotel will hopefully begin in Q4 this year with the office and apartments commencing in 2019.

Sullivan's Quay: 6 storey Office & 193 bed 4 star Hotel. Planning granted and immediately appealed. Given that demolition is nearly complete I'd expect this to go into construction as soon as planning is granted. Potential hold up over the height of the hotel, at 12 storeys and 47 metres, it is set to make the top 20 tallest buildings in the state if completed. An Taisce not happy.

Former Victoria Hotel: Knocking much of the Victoria and rebuilding to the back and refurbishing the original historic front/facade and to integrate the two sections into a new high order retail unit, of 25,000 sq ft, over four floors. Rumoured to be taken over by Zara. Planning granted in Feb, nothing happened on site since.

Metropole Redevelopment: €50m redevelopment of the Metropole Hotel to include a new five-storey boutique hotel on Patrick's Quay. Planning granted with amendments in March. No date for work to start.

Wilton Shopping Centre: €100 million revamp proposed. Mistake made in planning permission. In the process of resubmitting.

In Limbo

Event Centre: 6000 all seater multi purpose event centre with a tourist brewery experience. Arguably the most controversial construction project in the history of the city. After a bleak 6 months at the back end of 2017 there have been two instances of positive murmurs from the Government and BAM in January 2018 and April 2018. Construction allegedly to start in Q4 2018 but there are still conflicting and contradictory statements from all parties involved. Most would be shocked to see this start in 2018.

Anderson Quay/Camden Quay/Trinity Quarter: All have had planning for years with no work on site. Camden Quay allegedly had some work going on last week but I'd be shocked if it was related to the actual construction. I can't see any of these sites being developed as per their current proposals.

Concept/Pre Planning

Docklands Tower: 40 storey mixed use tower with the redevelopment of the existing customs house warehouses into cultural, tourist and retail space. By a mile the most ambitious development in Ireland. Announced over one year ago and no sign of a planning permission application yet, allegedly waiting for the Docklands development plan this summer to rezone heights for the site. If we don't see a planning application by the end of the year I'd be worried.

Ford Distribution Depot: Put on sale last week. Former site of the extremely ambitious Atlantic Quarter. Major development opportunity

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the beer revolu

Also take into account that not everyone wants to live alone.

Of all the places I've lived. I can only think of one (bedsit) that wasn't a shared apartment or house share.

If I was younger and single, I could well find the idea of co-living attractive if the price and situation was right.

mire

vinnie_cork wrote: »

Look at rent of a decent one room bed apartment in city, not suburbia....., €1200 pm, if a co share was €700pm many will opt for that. Tenements or Ghettos are not being proposed. The old bedsits are going because rented standards have improved and many unsuitable conversions of old houses into 6 flats are now being converted back into houses thus causing a lack of cheaper rental units.

The Math to why 1 bed apartments are not being built.....

(Build cost for apt is circa €2350per m2 right now) say a small 65m2 apt is €152,750, add on site cost of say €100,000 per apt if in city center, add on development contributions and levies by local authorities, that's up to €275,000 for a 1 bed apartment, for a landlord to buy and rent that out to generate a yield of say 7% before maintenance and taxes (income and LPT) and management companies often €1400 a year, add mortgage interest repayment, and wear and tear on kitchen, bathroom, carpets, so that's a rent of €1,604 pm to cover it. And don't forget if they sell the unit they are liable for capital gains taxes, thats why I am suggesting a 7% yield.

This is why rents are high. I'm not a landlord nor have any desire to become one, but people give out about greedy landlords and wonder why many are selling out. Do the math, thats the reason.

Where did you get your site costs? Seems high.

vinnie_cork

mire wrote: »

Where did you get your site costs? Seems high.

0.54 site example

Density per acre and Housing

https://www.housing.gov.ie/sites/default/files/publications/files/draft_update_of_planning_guidelines_on_apartments_2018.pdfhttp://

So take this €7m site. Divide by 70 apartments (very high for this 0.5acre site but lets go with it) is €100,000 per apartment site. That is assuming 8 apartments per floor allowed & possible to build, some floors less as confined, thats a 9 story apartment block, people will object to 9 floors in that location stating the buildings about it are 6 floors max.

However, only in last few months density of apartments p[er floor has increased to 12 from 8, this helps address his site costs but more apartments per floor isn't ideal.

So reduced to 70 apartments on 6 floors, now that cost is €100,000 per apartment. Thats before a bulldozer is put near the existing old building to come down.

Now, Does €100,000 per apartment for site cost seem high?

nyck04

vinnie_cork wrote: »

This is why rents are high.

Do you really believe this? The reason for high rents in Ireland is quite simply a lack of supply and high demand.

Property developers are holding off because they know the government are under pressure to deliver housing, it is a national crisis in Ireland, and far more significant than Brexit as you have real hardship in the here and now.

There is a real push on government to reduce taxation on new builds to help deliver housing and alleviate the crisis. Government however seems in no rush to deliver the housing required to make housing affordable as they have the national media completely focused on Brexit.

It really annoys me how our media keeps pointing at the craziness in the UK (and it is craziness and really worrying for those that live here) but forgets to focus on the crazy lack of housing on an island where land scarcity is not a problem.

Tomtom364

vinnie_cork wrote: »

0.54 site example

Density per acre and Housing

https://www.housing.gov.ie/sites/default/files/publications/files/draft_update_of_planning_guidelines_on_apartments_2018.pdfhttp://

So take this €7m site. Divide by 70 apartments (very high for this 0.5acre site but lets go with it) is €100,000 per apartment site. That is assuming 8 apartments per floor allowed & possible to build, some floors less as confined, thats a 9 story apartment block, people will object to 9 floors in that location stating the buildings about it are 6 floors max.

However, only in last few months density of apartments p[er floor has increased to 12 from 8, this helps address his site costs but more apartments per floor isn't ideal.

So reduced to 70 apartments on 6 floors, now that cost is €100,000 per apartment. Thats before a bulldozer is put near the existing old building to come down.

Now, Does €100,000 per apartment for site cost seem high?

Sextant/Careys tools site was meant to be between €7 and €8 Million. (approx 1.3 acres)

201 apartments there.

That's only €40k per apartment for the site at €8 million
And that dosnt even take into account the commercial units included.

marno21

Tomtom364 wrote: »

Sextant/Careys tools site was meant to be between €7 and €8 Million. (approx 1.3 acres)

201 apartments there.

That's only €40k per apartment for the site at €8 million
And that dosnt even take into account the commercial units included.

And it doesn't get much more central than that

Glenveagh paid €15m for the Marquee site and plan upto 1000 units on it. If they fulfil that then that's 15k per unit.

The lack of stupid height limits will help to drive down the land costs per units. Suitable apartment regulations and various other policy measures will determine the rest of it.

Markcheese

nyck04 wrote: »

Do you really believe this? The reason for high rents in Ireland is quite simply a lack of supply and high demand.

Property developers are holding off because they know the government are under pressure to deliver housing, it is a national crisis in Ireland, and far more significant than Brexit as you have real hardship in the here and now.

There is a real push on government to reduce taxation on new builds to help deliver housing and alleviate the crisis. Government however seems in no rush to deliver the housing required to make housing affordable as they have the national media completely focused on Brexit.

It really annoys me how our media keeps pointing at the craziness in the UK (and it is craziness and really worrying for those that live here) but forgets to focus on the crazy lack of housing on an island where land scarcity is not a problem.

Site cost doesn't help, but thd build cost is high here, and no developer is going to get finance for a build if the margins are tight.... The regulations and planning are complicated, the professional fees arent cheap, contributions and taxes are considerable, and that's before you get to construction...

nyck04

TheChizler wrote: »

It suits some people, why not allow people to create a product for that market? I am of course not saying to make it the norm or force it on anyone.

Would the developers or their cheerleaders in government live in one of these 'products'?
There is a housing crisis because there is significantly more demand than supply and government isn't able to meet demand through the free market. Government wants to pretend that Brexit is the key issue of the day when families live in 'temporary' accommodation.
Simple solution, if the builders can't turn a profit on apartments and houses then we should return to the model where the councils build 'units' to accommodate those that cannot afford 'units'.
Last year I was lucky to spend some time in Vienna, a beautiful city of 1.8 million souls. It was safe to wander the streets of Vienna at 4am in the morning. There is great affluence and great social balance. Above all there is a well thought out housing market.
https://www.ft.com/content/aa8e14e6-11a8-11e8-a765-993b2440bd73

vinnie_cork

Tomtom364 wrote: »

That's only €40k per apartment for the site at €8 million

Ok let’s take your €40,000 site cost. That’s €215,000 for a 1 bedroom apt instead of €275 cost. 7% yield works at €1254 pm rent!!! For 1 bedroom apartment. This is why co share living will be attractive

Kermit.de.frog

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

A giant statue of Michael Collins straddling the Lee where the sign used to be would be cool. Like Cork's version of The Colossus of Rhodes.

fash

nyck04 wrote: »

Property developers are holding off because they know the government are under pressure to deliver housing, it is a national crisis in Ireland, and far more significant than Brexit as you have real hardship in the here and now.

If you think about it, you'll realise that this is not possible.
It would require all developers to agree to not develop - however conspiracies not to compete break down at about 4-5 participants. Any developer who doesn't join in makes a killing as he is the only one developing in the meantime and building up cash for bigger and bigger land purchases.

nyck04

fash wrote: »

If you think about it, you'll realise that this is not possible.
It would require all developers to agree to not develop - however conspiracies not to compete break down at about 4-5 participants. Any developer who doesn't join in makes a killing as he is the only one developing in the meantime and building up cash for bigger and bigger land purchases.

I did not mention a conspiracy, I simply mentioned a narrative. There is a lot of pressure being applied by our leading developers to use the housing crisis to get the government to help lower the cost of building houses and apartments.
https://www.irishtimes.com/business/commercial-property/the-government-has-already-introduced-many-measures-that-benefit-developers-1.3885325

Among other things, O’Flynn would like the Government to reduce the VAT rate to 9 per cent to assist the viability of developments.

marno21

Is the current VAT rate on apartments 13.5%?

Were they to decrease it, and apartment building increased by 50% (not difficult, after all 50% of **** all is **** all) it would cover any resultant decrease in revenue.

opus

Finally tracked down the new path opened recently in the regional park in Ballincollig, hopefully the full link to town will come at some stage as suggested here.

fonecrusher1

Can't figure out where that is in the park?

Is it near the big car park?

Roger Hassenforder

fonecrusher1 wrote: »

Can't figure out where that is in the park? Is it near the big car park?

Down by Fionn Laoi

opus

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

Down by Fionn Laoi

Yup, I got onto it via the GAA entrance to the park - Google Maps

Pretty much right inside the gate.

Rhys Essien

I’d say except an announcement on the 25 storey tower on Sextant site any day now considering they announced the Prism decision a few weeks early and they said the Sextant would be end of September at the latest.

bingo9999

Any chance of an event centre nah?

Captainsatnav

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/cork-council-approves-6m-upgrade-plan-for-docklands-949744.html

opus

Bit of a delay with the redevelopment of the Marina but still sounds as if it will happen.

Marina Park revamp pushed out to late 2020

snotboogie

This will be a big improvement:

https://twitter.com/EoinBearla/status/1171417447104204800?s=20

namloc1980

snotboogie wrote: »

This will be a big improvement:

https://twitter.com/EoinBearla/status/1171417447104204800?s=20

Is it funded? Or another pie in the sky city council project.

namloc1980

opus wrote: »

Bit of a delay with the redevelopment of the Marina but still sounds as if it will happen.

Marina Park revamp pushed out to late 2020

"The park will not initially contain a playground due to the estimated €500,000 cost, or an upgrade of the Atlantic Pond, or the pedestrianisation of the Marina."

Seriously??

By the way this article is from February 2019 Marina Park could see construction begin next month

Also a previous start date was May 2017 with an opening date of January 2019. Work begins on Cork's new Marina Park

All these plans and so little delivery.

marno21

namloc1980 wrote: »

Is it funded? Or another pie in the sky city council project.

There’s LIHAF funding of €15.5m for the South Docks area for road upgrades from the Department of Housing so presumably the money is coming from there.

It’s a tiny piece of what’s required for the whole area though between the bridges and the massive works required to Centre Park Road and Monahan Road.

snotboogie

namloc1980 wrote: »

Is it funded? Or another pie in the sky city council project.

Yep, has full funding under the urban regeneration fund as of Jan this year

questionmark?

https://www.echolive.ie/corknews/Supporters-and-objectors-of-Irelands-tallest-building-make-their-case-to-Cork-planners-2f0f1b97-6ac4-422f-858b-9fa4b49d0df7-ds?fbclid=IwAR1f20ab5VgkYXgIpKHNBWZo9QiCKm3cN1ZLSmjOF0-2W2-XQPpFyCi_QCE

In the biggest surprise of the year An Taisce and the Irish GeorgIan Society are unhappy with the proposed tall modern building!

Treviso

questionmark? wrote: »

https://www.echolive.ie/corknews/Supporters-and-objectors-of-Irelands-tallest-building-make-their-case-to-Cork-planners-2f0f1b97-6ac4-422f-858b-9fa4b49d0df7-ds?fbclid=IwAR1f20ab5VgkYXgIpKHNBWZo9QiCKm3cN1ZLSmjOF0-2W2-XQPpFyCi_QCE

In the biggest surprise of the year An Taisce and the Irish GeorgIan Society are unhappy with the proposed tall modern building!

Some of the reasons for objections are laughable.

Residents living on Sidney Hill overlooking the city also lodged an objection saying the Custom House Tower will detrimentally alter the "natural and visual beauty of Cork's Lee Valley.

The area where the river channels rejoin represent a traditional Cork setting which will be destroyed if a structure of the proposed dimension is built there.

I might throw an objection in myself that the tower would ruin my view of the Northside

In their objection, An Taisce said changes to the site would completely alter the integrity of the existing buildings and their setting

Yes, they will actually be accessible and be put to use now, instead of being left to rot

Flesh Gorden

https://www.echolive.ie/corknews/Cork-Northern-Ring-Road-hope-at-last-5fc67e67-d27b-429b-9e11-097e19bf807d-ds

Cork Northern Ring Road: hope at last?

Cork's Northern Ring Road was on the agenda at Cork City Council's meeting last night, as it has been for the last 15 years.

Same thing that went through my head when I saw the headline.

Last week they thad an article from a UCC 'expert' saying we would be delusional to build new roads.

https://www.echolive.ie/corknews/Growth-plans-for-Cork-are-delusional-if-we-focus-on-building-roads-c639a053-2d48-410d-a764-723cc51bce45-ds

So should we listen to city councillors with feedback form residents and businesses or a person who has been in the education bubble their entire life with a 5min walk from their office to their house?

Build the North Ring Road and you remove the HGVs from unsuitable roads and probably the majority of cross city private traffic, then do what you want with mass transit options, road restrictions etc..

snotboogie

Flesh Gorden wrote: »

Same thing that went through my head when I saw the headline.

Last week they thad an article from a UCC 'expert' saying we would be delusional to build new roads.

https://www.echolive.ie/corknews/Growth-plans-for-Cork-are-delusional-if-we-focus-on-building-roads-c639a053-2d48-410d-a764-723cc51bce45-ds

So should we listen to city councillors with feedback form residents and businesses or a person who has been in the education bubble their entire life with a 5min walk from their office to their house?

Build the North Ring Road and you remove the HGVs from unsuitable roads and probably the majority of cross city private traffic, then do what you want with mass transit options, road restrictions etc..

I actually have a lot of time for Frank Crowley, I would agree with him on 95% of what he says and he is a measured voice in the media who is willing to stand up to sacred cow vested interests who are always trotted out around public transport and urbanization. His opposition to the M20 and and in particular the NRR is perplexing though. He is totally incapable of answering where the international precedent for not linking cities with a motorway or creating a ring-road around a city actually is. I would support very tight zoning around the roads to prevent sprawl which I am also against but roads exist for more than just commuting. He also seems to work off the premise that money not invested in roads in Cork will go straight into public transport in Cork, rather than the reality where its either money for roads or money invested elsewhere. Lastly he takes a particular interest in protesting against Cork projects, where was he when we were spending hundreds of millions linking Gort to Tuam?