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Is Ireland too insular?

[Deleted User]

The independence of Ireland generated a social and cultural shift which may be unparalleled outside of Czarist and USSR Russia. Irish republicanism went from being a fringe movement, during the years of constitutional nationalism, to becoming ingrained in the people's outlook.

But did it go too far?

I didn't start this thread in Current Affairs because I think this goes beyond politics. I believe that we, as Irish people, have a tendency towards placing ourselves at the centre of everything.

I have noticed that in any discussion -- say, of world cuisine, the Irish will inevitably swoop on it by extolling the virtues of blaa, or coddle, or their ma's apple tart.

Discussion of Brexit, North Korea or global warming always descend to small questions like "what does this mean for Ireland?" The Irish news media is fairly unique, to my knowledge, in framing every international news story in terms of an Irish significance (what does Global Warming mean for farmers in North Tipp?)

Irish people often seem to have a magnetic draw to one another when abroad. That's nice, but then you are inevitably drawn into a long and detailed conversation into 'how things are at home'.

The world does not revolve around this small island in the North Atlantic.

I love my country, and I love its language and its history. I'm not some Irish-hating wannabe west-brit. But we can be too introspective, too insular. Why?

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PostWoke

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

I didn't start this thread in Current Affairs because I think this goes beyond politics. I believe that we, as Irish people, have a tendency towards placing ourselves at the centre of everything.

If you think Irish people are ethnocentric, hold on to your butt because Americans/the French/ any South East Asians are going to blow your mind.

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

I have noticed that in any discussion -- say, of world cuisine, the Irish will inevitably swoop on it by extolling the virtues of blaa, or coddle, or their ma's apple tart.

Never seen anything like this. Ireland actually has a very limited cuisine all of its' own, and a lot of it, as you said, contains offal, which many avoid these days (not me). And again, wait till you meet the french, or italians.

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

Discussion of Brexit, North Korea or global warming always descend to small questions like "what does this mean for Ireland?" The Irish news media is fairly unique, to my knowledge, in framing every international news story in terms of an Irish significance (what does Global Warming mean for farmers in North Tipp?)

"Will I be alive and secure" is a fair concern. And the Irish media is ****e, don't worry about it. All they're good for is listicles and make up reviews.

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

The world does not revolve around this small island in the North Atlantic.

Irish people never stop obsessing about stuff going on in other countries, the US in particular, and the UK since Brexit, I am genuinely confused where you think you're getting this framing from.

In short, I think they literal opposite of what you're alleging is true.

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

Irish people often seem to have a magnetic draw to one another when abroad.

The only part of your argument that has any basis in merit. But you need to replace 'Irish' with 'all nationalities'. The mental benefits for having 'a night off' should be obvious, especially if the country in the question is very different culturally.

Paddy Cow

Franz Von Peppercorn II wrote: »

Pizza and pasta.

Lasagne is the ultimate comfort food.

PostWoke

Paddy Cow wrote: »

Lasagne is the ultimate comfort food.

Found the insular italian bot.

Arghus

I'd imagine we're as insular and as self obsessed as any other group of people, we're just a bit more conscious of our self obsession because it's ours.

dd973

Try living in England for insular, it thinks it's the world not a country, at least in Ireland there's load of people relative to our populace that have done the Oz stint, have relatives further afield and so on.

Has the deluded notion of itself as an 'indispensable world power' that's 'too big and held back by the EU' when in the real world it has the most areas in Western Europe propped up by EU anti-poverty grants.

Chris_Heilong

Were are overly international and aware of the world but our biggest weakness which is inherent in most English speaking countries is an unwillingness or need to learn a second language.

DEFTLEFTHAND

Humans like all animals are tribal by nature.

It's not just an Irish thing.

PostWoke

dd973 wrote: »

Try living in England for insular

Oh, this too. They barely know we're here. Or the history. Ireland is a weekend piss-up destination for them, end of.

Shefwedfan

dd973 wrote: »

Try living in England for insular, it thinks it's the world not a country, at least in Ireland there's load of people relative to our populace that have done the Oz stint, have relatives further afield and so on.

Has the deluded notion of itself as an 'indispensable world power' that's 'too big and held back by the EU' when in the real world it has the most areas in Western Europe propped up by EU anti-poverty grants.

100% agree....they had a video on Joe.ie which discussing the education system in UK which more or less disregards anything unless it’s about how great UK is

So the majority of UK have no idea of how Northern Ireland came about or why....no idea about why the troubles

They are far more insular than ireland.....

Edgware

PostWoke wrote: »

Oh, this too. They barely know we're here. Or the history. Ireland is a weekend piss-up destination for them, end of.

Encouraged by out tourist industry. Our own crew are well able to go on weekend piss ups in the English cities or on the continent to Prague, Amsterdam etc without knowing too much about the history of these places

Shefwedfan

Edgware wrote: »

Encouraged by out tourist industry. Our own crew are well able to go on weekend piss ups in the English cities or on the continent to Prague, Amsterdam etc without knowing too much about the history of these places

I think you will find the Irish education system is far superior in terms of history to the UK and US

The UK spends a lot of time talking about “how they won the wars” but very little or why they happened and what has happened since

Go outside the war and it is back to 1700 when they ruled the world

Nothing about anything after 1950

Edgware

Shefwedfan wrote: »

I think you will find the Irish education system is far superior in terms of history to the UK and US

The UK spends a lot of time talking about “how they won the wars” but very little or why they happened and what has happened since

Go outside the war and it is back to 1700 when they ruled the world

Nothing about anything after 1950

No I wont find that

PostWoke

Edgware wrote: »

Encouraged by out tourist industry.

Wait. You're telling me Ireland is more than leprechauns, fairies, Temple Bar, and free shipping at O'Carrolls if you spend over a hundred euro?

I really dislike the stereotype of Irish people. The only reason we're associated with drinking is because things stay friendly when we're pished. The English abuse booze far worse, and leather the ****e out of each other at the drop of the hat. We drink about as much at the yanks, and less than some of South East Asian countries. Seen it meself.

I think we kind of encourage it ourselves too though, makes us look easy going. I would like to see Ireland shake the stereotype. There's more to us.

Franz Von Peppercorn II

Shefwedfan wrote: »

I think you will find the Irish education system is far superior in terms of history to the UK and US

The UK spends a lot of time talking about “how they won the wars” but very little or why they happened and what has happened since

Go outside the war and it is back to 1700 when they ruled the world

Nothing about anything after 1950

There are a few modules on “De Valera signed the book of condolences for Hitler” though. They all know that.

Franz Von Peppercorn II

Edgware wrote: »

No I wont find that

A strongly sourced rebuttal.

Raconteuse

ElectronVolt wrote: »

Is ireland insular? No I don't think it is at all. It's quite the opposite compared to quite a few places I've lived, including the UK and France. France can be shockingly insular on topics like food for example.

I find ireland can be very lacking in self confidence though and has a tendency to constantly undermine itself with discussion about "only in Ireland".

I'd say a lot of it comes from having been on the receiving end of having been put down for centuries by Anglo centric culture that has told us we are thick or worthless.

Just as an example, I have older relatives in Dublin who use the term "oh that's a bit Irish of him" to mean obtuse! I keep pointing out it's a bizzare phrase to use.

I've heard it used plenty of times in England though and I've been told things like about how you "got your Irish out" when I was annoyed with someone at a meeting and had to make a strong point.

Basically, we're a culture that has been abused so much over the years that we have weird lack of self confidence and I think this thread actually shows that too.

This. The self loathing can be shocking.

And stuff from certain posters would be an immediate ban if about, say, Nigerians.

EmmetSpiceland

PostWoke wrote: »

There's more to us.

...den dis.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

JohnnyFlash wrote: »

To each their own, and all that. There's a place in every town in Ireland serving dried pasta, variations of tomato sauce with whatever you would like from the huge menu, and pizza made from commercially produced dough. Then the Sicilian owner will arrive out to impress your girlfriend, mother, or grandmother with his unusually tight trousers and massive pepper grinder. Everyone leaves fairly happy - the bill was ok, the table enjoyed the food without being massively impressed, and they gave you a shot of limoncello at the end.

That's very much at odds with the sort of regional food you can find in Italy. Ignore the places with waiters standing outside offering you menus with pictures. Head to a local place (of which there are many), and order the menu of the day. The local places hate when you order from the main menu, as the profit is in serving up what they actually cooked in the kitchen so they could give you 4 courses of extraordinary food for 20 euro a head.

And it is extraordinary.

Am, yeah, I know that, thanks. Who doesn’t know that the picture-menu places are awful? Don’t make assumptions. I put a lot of thought into where to eat on holiday actually. I’m just not amazed by Italian food. Disclosure: I haven’t been to Italy but have been cooked for various Italians. And have been to a place in Dublin fully run by Italians who serve no other alcoholic beverage than wine on the menu. It’s not a crowd-pleasing menu.

Franz Von Peppercorn II wrote: »

Pizza and pasta.

I like pizza. I don’t care for pasta. It’s grand. I’ll eat it but will never be like “Yum, pasta!”, whether it’s fresh or dried or made from scratch right in front of me. If I was a single woman, I'd never eat it. I only do because The Huz likes it. Before we moved in together, there was never any pasta in my cupboard or fridge.

Edgware

Franz Von Peppercorn II wrote: »

A strongly sourced rebuttal.

As required for your unsupported opinion

Shefwedfan

Franz Von Peppercorn II wrote: »

A strongly sourced rebuttal.

A person you would want to avoid at all costs in a debate

Fourier

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

I haven’t been to Italy but have been cooked for various Italians

I can see how that would leave a bad impression. You need to tell these people that cooking you is not on and you'd prefer a pizza.

[Deleted User]

Listening to the Marian Finucane Show ón RTÉ Radio 1 today.

A segment on the legacy of Robert Mugabe -- the entire discussion revolved around his state visit to Ireland in the early 1980s, his and his wife's dietary demands, and how Garret Fitzgerald insisted on choosing the wine.

This trivial, Ireland-centric discussion on the legacy of a tyrant featured two high-profile journalists and a former Taoiseach (Bruton).

That's how a major current affairs programme handled the passing of one of the most notorious post-war dictators of our time: the trivial Irish angle that is utterly, completely irrelevant to history.

beejee

Ive just made the connection between the german for "island" and the word insular. Surely they have the same root, stemming from an island being isolated?

Could I verify this, right now? Yes

Will I verify it, right now? No

Instead, enjoy this documentary about Ireland

Fourier

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

That's how a major current affairs programme handled the passing of one of the most notorious post-war dictators of our time: the trivial Irish angle that is utterly, completely irrelevant to history.

Loads of countries do this. When I was in Japan any world event was linked to Japanese history or culture in some way. Regardless of whether it should be done or not, it's not an Irish thing.

[Deleted User]

Fourier wrote: »

Loads of countries do this. When I was in Japan any world event was linked to Japanese history or culture in some way. Regardless of whether it should be done or not, it's not an Irish thing.

I don't speak Japanese, so I'll just have to take that point, but the reason this got into my head in the first place was precisely because of non-Irish colleagues complaining about it.

Most people watch or read the news to gain an insight into the world around them. Our news seems to act, at times, like a reassurance of our own significance in the world.

From the foreign radio stations I listen to, I really don't get the same impression. I do suspect we have a strange tendency to put ourselves at the centre of some of the most unlikely global--news stories.

beejee

Fourier wrote: »

Loads of countries do this. When I was in Japan any world event was linked to Japanese history or culture in some way. Regardless of whether it should be done or not, it's not an Irish thing.

Case in point; that you must relate everything through your trip to Japan.

"Do you know what time it is, Fourier?"

"Yes, while I lived in Japan it is now 4.20pm"

"What is the sum of 1 plus 1, Fourier?"

"During my trip to Japan, 2"

Is it right or wrong, who can tell these days?

Fourier

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

I really do suspect we have a strange tendency to put ourselves at the centre of some of the most unlikely global--news stories.

I don't I have to say. Maybe we do it more than some other Western European countries, but compared to countries in general around the world my experience is that we "self focus" as much as others.

Fourier

beejee wrote: »

Case in point; that you must relate everything through your trip to Japan.

"Do you know what time it is, Fourier?"

"Yes, while I lived in Japan it is now 4.20pm"

"What is the sum of 1 plus 1, Fourier?"

"During my trip to Japan, 2"

Is it right or wrong, who can tell these days?

This makes little sense to me. What precisely are you saying?

pinkyeye

I agree with the OP to an extent, every Irish chat show you watch they get a guest on and the first questions are "do you have any Irish roots?", "why do you love Ireland?", "why do you think Irish people love you?".

This doesn't happen in other countries.

But in a way it's cute, it's a pride in our country.

In terms of how we receive our news though I think things are changing. With the advent of Twitter etc. where Irish people are following more people from other countries we are getting different viewpoints now.

That will take a couple of generations to come through I suppose.

Raconteuse

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

Listening to the Marian Finucane Show ón RTÉ Radio 1 today.

A segment on the legacy of Robert Mugabe -- the entire discussion revolved around his state visit to Ireland in the early 1980s, his and his wife's dietary demands, and how Garret Fitzgerald insisted on choosing the wine.

This trivial, Ireland-centric discussion on the legacy of a tyrant featured two high-profile journalists and a former Taoiseach (Bruton).

That's how a major current affairs programme handled the passing of one of the most notorious post-war dictators of our time: the trivial Irish angle that is utterly, completely irrelevant to history.

So, so many examples of how Ireland isn't insular and is actually less insular than some countries that are perceived as so much more sophisticated, but you focus on this one thing.

Why? Why the obsession with viewing ourselves as plebs? Does it make people feel more enlightened or something?

There are insular, provincial, parochial types in Ireland of course - but what about the rest of us? Why are people so insistent on only using one type of person to represent all of us?

I mean international news stories get reported on Irish news in the first place. Whereas Irish news stories pretty much don't get reported elsewhere at all.

There are contradictory outlooks - the folk you talk about who put Ireland at the centre of everything. They are not everyone. Then there is the self loathing crowd. And then there is the rest of us who are neither.

Like anywhere.