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The Dominance of Dublin GAA Mod warning post#1

seligehgit

Discussion of all matters relating to this contentious subject is welcome and the potential implications of same.This thread is solely for this purpose.

There appears to be a perception that the moderators are attempting to shut down discussion of this topic and direct same off to a low traffic stickied thread.Nothing could be further from the truth.Our sole motive was to confine discussion to a single thread and prevent cross thread posting which was adversely affecting the enjoyment of fellow posters.

Can we please keep posts civil and constructive in nature.

The Changes in the GAA-super thread is now for discussion of all other suggested reforms not relating to Dublin GAA.

Extra Mod Warning:
Right, a separate warning to both sides in this debate:
Firstly, any more mentioning of "financial doping" or any intimation that rules have been broken by Dublin or that Dublin have cheated are banned from now on. You can debate the issue of the funding that Dublin have received without resorting to that. There is zero evidence of it and posting about it will be considered trolling from here on in.

Secondly, this topic is, like it or not, a big talking point in gaelic football at the moment. You are more than welcome to argue your point, but posting in this thread to simply mock those on the other side or complaining about the topic is known as thread spoiling and is specifically banned in the charter (see point 8 here). No one is forcing you to click on this thread and no one is forcing you to post in it. If you don't like the topic, then don't post. It's as simple as that.

This thread is here so that all the discussion is in one place and it won't filter into other threads. This makes it easier to ignore for posters who don't really want to be involved in it. As a result, we haven't really been moderating it as severely as other threads. However, a number of posts recently from both sides are sailing too close to the wind and getting borderline personal. So please take a minute before you hit submit to ensure that your post won't fall foul of the rules. We'll have no hesitation in issuing cards and/or threadbans to posters who fail to heed this warning.

Please report any posts that you feel break the rules.

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gormdubhgorm

The_Honeybadger wrote: »

You can’t win it every year but Dublin have had a decade of absolutely unprecedented success at U21 was my point. Look at the senior players they got from those teams, Kilkenny, Mcaffrey, Fenton, Howard, Mannion, Con etc. It’s some going to win it four times in a decade. This grade is usually (but not always) a good indicator of future success at senior level.

That Parnells story sounds like a club that was very badly run and a bit of an anomaly really. I’m not sure how it relates to the wider topic on this thread.

Well because the phrase financial doping is given as the main reason for Dublin's success when there are clear examples in the GAA that large finances do not mean success. In fact tt can lead to the opposite like Parnells.

Also on the u21's my argument is most of those wins were under the guidance of Jim Gavin. That is the critical factor that ties them together.

I was at many of them.
The 2003 final was against a worse for wear Tyrone - it was played in October then after the Senior Final. So the Senior players eligible for u21 were effected by celebrations etc.
The 2010 final was nearly thrown away with a Michael Murphy peno walloping the crossbar at the final kick of the game.
The most recent win in 2017 Dublin were carried by an exceptional Con O'Callaghan (Howard was a sub played well when he came on)

The u21 successes are critical to Dublin success at the moment. They are just special players like the groups Kerry had in the 90's (back to back 95,96, and 98) or the groups Tyrone had in the 00's (back to back 00, 01).

So it is not really that unprecedented when you consider other great teams, also the half assed way Dublin used to treat the u21 competition.
It took them ages to get back on track.

I am honestly worried about what is coming down the track, there seems to be a definite slide to me.
At the moment Dublin seem to be surviving on experienced winners with a winning ethos.
Like they did the last day v Kerry when they were down to 14 men they just knew what to do - even though they were not playing well overall.
Kerry teams used to have that with thier successful teams until the 'famine' of 86-97.
Before Dublin won the AI in 2011 they used to sh!t themselves against the bigger sides there was no belief there.
They folded when a bit of pressure was put on them. Many of Dublin's intercounty opponents of the time have said this interviews.
Dublin were flaky they were mentally weak.
A lot of sport is between the ears no matter how good a player is if his head is not right, he will lose. To me that cannot be bought.

beggars_bush

As I reported a month ago

https://m.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/why-dublin-could-play-one-less-championship-game-in-2020-38472464.html

gormdubhgorm

threeball wrote: »

Kerry have a history of multiple wins in a row at minor or at least winning extremely regularly. Money makes very little difference to players under 18 bar maybe getting them better coaches and facilities. The real difference is after that. Look at the Dublin U21's, they are physically monstrous next to their counterparts from other counties. Theres no comparison between the S&C of them and other teams in the competition.

In fairness five minor wins in a row is incredible.
Considering most of those teams only last two years - I doubt that will be bettered or even equaled in my lifetime.
I saw many of those minor wins live because Dublin were in the senior. I was getting more worried with each passing year, of what was coming down the track from Kerry.
Clifford in particular was like that New Zealand rugby fella Jonah Lomu with fellas bouncing off him, floundering on thier ass.
Non-Kerry people looking the programme who's yer man?

Now he starting to do it at senior level.

bruschi

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Well because the phrase financial doping is given as the main reason for Dublin's success

If anyone claims it is the main or only reason, then you shouldnt really even engage them.

It absolutely is a contributory reason, but there are multiple reasons for their success. I'd entertain the argument that their superior and sustained dominance is due to financial reasons, however there are many other reasons why they emerged like they did and how a superpower turned its fortunes around.

My argument would be that Dublin were always going to turn this around. Realistically, they were never actually that far away in their "famine" (a famine that many counties would count as a greatest period in their history!) Changes in economic situations and general societal issues would help, as well as the emergence of super clubs attitudes backboning change in Dublin. However the GAA pushing an even great advantage ensured it could be longer sustained and bigger than if left to their own devices.

gormdubhgorm

beggars_bush wrote: »

As I reported a month ago

https://m.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/why-dublin-could-play-one-less-championship-game-in-2020-38472464.html

Hopefully it is the start of the road leading to scrapping of the provincials in the championship - relics of the past.
Waste of time needs seeded groups countrywide.
It is kind of ironic that the two best football teams play in two of the weakest provinces.

blanch152

The_Honeybadger wrote: »

Has there been a decline in Dublin football at minor / U21?

Dublin have won four U21’s since 2010 and made the U20 final this year. They had only won the competition once prior to that. This unprecedented success began 5-6 years after the investment on the ground. I doubt it’s a coincidence and is a good template for other counties to follow actually if funding is to be broadened.

I don’t know the back story to Parnells so won’t comment on that.

Given that for many years Dublin didn't even enter it, not surprising that we didn't win it.

Duffy the Vampire Slayer

Why didn't Dublin enter under 21?

gormdubhgorm

Duffy the Vampire Slayer wrote: »

Why didn't Dublin enter under 21?

Oh that was a Heffo thing he did not rate the grade at all and it clashed with the senior at the time.
So after while his logic was play the young lads in the senior team don't mind the under 21.
Then Dublin became so poor when they went back into the grade they dropped out of it again for a while in the 80's
Mad when you think of it.
Some way to nurture talent!

The_Honeybadger

blanch152 wrote: »

Given that for many years Dublin didn't even enter it, not surprising that we didn't win it.

How many years is ‘many’ years? I didn’t realise they bowed out for a period of time.

They are in it as long as I am following football and have only had sustained success since 2010.

gormdubhgorm

bruschi wrote: »

My argument would be that Dublin were always going to turn this around. Realistically, they were never actually that far away in their "famine" (a famine that many counties would count as a greatest period in their history!) Changes in economic situations and general societal issues would help, as well as the emergence of super clubs attitudes backboning change in Dublin. However the GAA pushing an even great advantage ensured it could be longer sustained and bigger than if left to their own devices.

Getting to the Semi-Final v Armagh in 2002 after so many years was dreamland stuff for Dub fans.
Seven years felt like a lifetime to even reach a Semi-Final and a great chance of a final. The buzz was massive at the time leading up to it.

Most of the time Dublin really struggled outside leinster.
In 02 they were lucky to draw one of the weaker sides in the QF in the shape of Donegal.

I suppose the Dublin footballers were about the 8th/10th best team in the country for long periods between around 1998-to around 2010.
But most of the time they were hyped up to be much better than this.

Duffy the Vampire Slayer

I know our All-Ireland famine is much longer than Dublin's was, but seven years without Mayo making a semi would seem like a long time for me. I'd be ecstatic when they did.

gormdubhgorm

Duffy the Vampire Slayer wrote: »

I know our All-Ireland famine is much longer than Dublin's was, but seven years without Mayo making a semi would seem like a long time for me. I'd be ecstatic when they did.

That was why the u21 win in 2003 was greeted with such hope and joy.
Even though half of the Tyrone squad were hungover, it was Dublin's first national title in football since the 95 senor win,

gormdubhgorm

The_Honeybadger wrote: »

How many years is ‘many’ years? I didn’t realise they bowed out for a period of time.

They are in it as long as I am following football and have only had sustained success since 2010.

https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/trophy-bride-still-playing-hard-to-get-under-21-football-all-ireland-final-1.380985

Bonniedog

Didn't Dublin and Offaly get thrown out one year when Billings was over the team - Jason was playing and there was an unpleasant incident concerning him - after an epic fight in Parnell? Think the ban was for two years?

The_Honeybadger

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/trophy-bride-still-playing-hard-to-get-under-21-football-all-ireland-final-1.380985

So they withdrew for only three years? I thought the way blanch phrased it they missed a couple of decades

Interesting all the same. I see young Ciaran Archer is still underage for the U20 next year? Must be high hopes for another title next year

Fan of Netflix

Is GAA President Dublin John is giving his team Dublin a bye in next years Leinster Championship. Great way to address inequality. He really seems determined to destroy the GAA.

Bonniedog

If you read the report, you will find that DCB are opposed to the bye and voted against it.

threeball

Fan of Netflix wrote: »

Is GAA President Dublin John is giving his team Dublin a bye in next years Leinster Championship. Great way to address inequality. He really seems determined to destroy the GAA.

It's his attempt to make Leinster appear less sh1t. Give the appearance of competition for a round or two the drop Dublin in. It's the equivalent of two terriers having a dog fight but in round 2 you drop in a Rottweiler and expect the terrier to give it a go.

4068ac1elhodqr

Maybe in another 10yrs or so the Spanish will feature in a final:
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/gaelic-football-boom-in-galicia-gets-national-coverage-in-spanish-press-1.4010029

The sport only started in Spain’s westernmost province (Galicia) in 2010.
In the space of less than a decade, 14 clubs have started up and there are now 14 male and seven female football teams.

After all, they claim the original Celtic people in Ireland came from Galicia.
Hola el Galicians!

gormdubhgorm

The_Honeybadger wrote: »

So they withdrew for only three years? I thought the way blanch phrased it they missed a couple of decades

Interesting all the same. I see young Ciaran Archer is still underage for the U20 next year? Must be high hopes for another title next year

Forgot to put another article where it said Dublin withdrew sometime me in the 70's as well I believe.
I can't find the exact number of years. The idea of withdrawing from a competition like that for a team like Dublin annoyed me.
That was no way to run it.
Even when they were in it for years there was a half assed attitude towards the u21's

https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/gaelic-games/gaelic-football/gaa-weekend-that-was-irony-in-dublin-s-last-u-21-all-ireland-victory-1.3067778

In the article above it says Dublin fans were outnumbered in u21 football and it never took the imagination of fans.
Bobby Doyle was one who questioned Dublin's participation in it 25 years ago as it was run at the same time as the Dublin championship.

In the article below Dublin u20 boss Tom Gray said -

https://www.the42.ie/dublin-u20-football-4748011-Jul2019/

“I think there was a period in the early 90s when Dublin didn’t appear in the U21 grade, it probably wasn’t a very bright idea,” says Dublin U20 boss Tom Gray."

--

I don't know if Gray got his decades mixed up or whether it is true. Because to be honest I did not start properly paying attention to the u21's as a supporter until Dublin reached the 2002 final in Portlaoise - they were walloped by a Joe Bergin inspired Galway and the game was over in 15 minutes!

--

As for success next year the competition seems fairly strong. Archer is obviously a stand out player.
But to me there does not seem to be the same buzz/talk about this group of Dublin players.
Which might indicate that the quality is not the same as previous years.
Most of them will probably get a run in the O'Byrne cup this year to see how they fare. That is how Scully appeared from nowhere in the senior team he took his chance in that.
There is always Annual Dublin 'Selection' v Dubs Stars towards the end of the year. Where the Dublin selection is made up of u21 players/fringe players and the Dubs stars could be made up of all sorts. I think McManamon played for the (Dubs Stars) last year with Ger Brennan.

Bonniedog

My recollection of 21s is that they were thrown out for a year or two after the Offaly game and maybe didn't enter for a year or two after that.

There was a good under 21 team during the Heffo era. They were beaten by Kerry in AI final a week after more or exactly the same Kerry team had beaten the seniors. Mullins was only Dub on both teams afaik.

Was chap from our club on 21s in 1976 and was at final in Newbridge when they got hammered by Kildare.

gormdubhgorm

Bonniedog wrote: »

My recollection of 21s is that they were thrown out for a year or two after the Offaly game and maybe didn't enter for a year or two after that.

There was a good under 21 team during the Heffo era. They were beaten by Kerry in AI final a week after more or exactly the same Kerry team had beaten the seniors. Mullins was only Dub on both teams afaik.

Was chap from our club on 21s in 1976 and was at final in Newbridge when they got hammered by Kildare.

Wouldn't you think someone in the know would put a note on the u21 football championship Wikipedia page?
To explain exactly the years Dublin did not compete in it.
Then would show properly if there was an determinant to the senior teams in the subsequent years.

The fact that nobody seems to know the complete exact years Dublin were not in the competition speaks volumes, as to how it was treated.

beggars_bush

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Getting to the Semi-Final v Armagh in 2002 after so many years was dreamland stuff for Dub fans.
Seven years felt like a lifetime to even reach a Semi-Final and a great chance of a final. The buzz was massive at the time leading up to it.

Most of the time Dublin really struggled outside leinster.
In 02 they were lucky to draw one of the weaker sides in the QF in the shape of Donegal.

I suppose the Dublin footballers were about the 8th/10th best team in the country for long periods between around 1998-to around 2010.
But most of the time they were hyped up to be much better than this.

You mean before the county started getting millions in funding to improve themselves?
Because the culchies were routinely beating them

gormdubhgorm

beggars_bush wrote: »

You mean before the county started getting millions in funding to improve themselves?
Because the culchies were routinely beating them

I have already given my opinions on this line of thought on this thread on numerous occasions.
To me that millions argument is a perpetuated fallacy especially, when given as the sole reason for Dublin's success.
As I have said previously there are major holes in the argument.
To me, it is no coincidence that when Dublin returned to the u21 competition and treated it seriously - that it has contributed to the success of the senior team.
Much like Kerry did in the 70's /90's Tyrone in the 00's
Obviously an exceptional crop of players from these eras also helped - which is the same situation Dublin find themselves in now.
But as I have stated in this thread I believe the conveyor belt of talent is slowing down.

Plus if this great Dublin team did not emerge football would be much worse off for it - Jim McGuinness style with Donegal would still have been in vogue.
Dublin have changed the landscape of gaelic football forever and the sport will forever be thankful they did so.
The success the Kerry team is having is owed a lot to thier aping of Dublin's tactics, 'go for it attack' - invest in youth - it got Kerry five minor titles in a row. Go back to the skills of the game as Kerry players are renowned for.
Also it is clear from Sunday that the Kerry senior team now ape Dublin's tactics they push up high and are brave.

If Dublin, Jim Gavin, these exceptional group of players did not appear as the stars aligned where would Gaelic football be today?
It is clear even Kerry are learning from watching the best.

maestroamado

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

I have already given my opinions on this line of thought on this thread on numerous occasions.
To me that millions argument is a perpetuated fallacy especially, when given as the sole reason for Dublin's success.
As I have said previously there are major holes in the argument.
To me, it is no coincidence that when Dublin returned to the u21 competition and treated it seriously - that it has contributed to the success of the senior team.
Much like Kerry did in the 70's /90's Tyrone in the 00's
Obviously an exceptional crop of players from these eras also helped - which is the same situation Dublin find themselves in now.
But as I have stated in this thread I believe the conveyor belt of talent is slowing down.

Plus if this great Dublin team did not emerge football would be much worse off for it - Jim McGuinness style with Donegal would still have been in vogue.
Dublin have changed the landscape of gaelic football forever and the sport will forever be thankful they did so.
The success the Kerry team is having is owed a lot to thier aping of Dublin's tactics, 'go for it attack' - invest in youth - it got Kerry five minor titles in a row. Go back to the skills of the game as Kerry players are renowned for.
Also it is clear from Sunday that the Kerry senior team now ape Dublin's tactics they push up high and are brave.

If Dublin, Jim Gavin, these exceptional group of players did not appear as the stars aligned where would Gaelic football be today?
It is clear even Kerry are learning from watching the best.

Well the best game of football i seen this year was Donegal v Kerry.
This throws out your thoery. Dublin are very athletic but they have literally nobody who can score from play more than 30 metres out.

ArielAtom

Some people really need to re-watch some games. The amateur analysis while amusing is rather poor as analysis, it is literally a resounding fail as trolling.

Tombo2001

maestroamado wrote: »

Well the best game of football i seen this year was Donegal v Kerry.
This throws out your thoery. Dublin are very athletic but they have literally nobody who can score from play more than 30 metres out.

I think to be fair their game plan is not to try to score from 40 metres plus out, as its a lower percentage score.

Obviously, such a cunning game plan is the result of MILLIONS being pumped into the capital.....as opposed to a few of the management team sitting down and discussing it.

Tombo2001

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

“I think there was a period in the early 90s when Dublin didn’t appear in the U21 grade, it probably wasn’t a very bright idea,” says Dublin U20 boss Tom Gray."

--

Meath were big beneficiaries of this. Lots of the 1996 team stepped straight off the 1991 and 1993 u21 teams that had won out in Leinster, and won the AI in 1993.

ThunbergsAreGo

maestroamado wrote: »

Well the best game of football i seen this year was Donegal v Kerry.
This throws out your thoery. Dublin are very athletic but they have literally nobody who can score from play more than 30 metres out.

It was Kildare Longford for me.

Best doesnt mean the highest quality......

The Rooster

maestroamado wrote: »

Well the best game of football i seen this year was Donegal v Kerry.
This throws out your thoery. Dublin are very athletic but they have literally nobody who can score from play more than 30 metres out.

Well just go back one game to the semi final v Mayo, Howard scored from more than 30 metres out and Mannion scored at least 2 from more than 30 metres out.

So either:
-You don't understand "literally", and/or
-You don't understand "metres", and/or
-You only watched Dublin play one match this year

I recommend you watch the "12 in 12" period in the second half of the Dublin v Mayo semi final for a healthy dose of magnificent awe inspiring football.
High-fielding, great passing, great tackles, super points and awesome goal finishing.
Will only take 12 minutes but the joy will last a lot longer.

Kerry have some super players too, so I think we're all in for a treat on Saturday, whether the 5 in a row is completed by the Boys in Blue or whether it's derailed by the Green & Gold (and maybe then there might be a period of Kerry dominance).