The glorious 12th

holyhead wrote: »

Not quite sure if that holds true for ever amen. Someone born in Belgrade pre 1990 was born in Yugoslavia. Someone born there in 2000 was born in Serbia.

Your nationality is decided on the day of your birth by definition whatever happens in the future won't change than.

jh79 wrote: »

Maybe so, but a child born today in Belfast will always have been born in a British city. They will die having been born in a British city no matter what happens in the future.

This isn't about partition. Its a definition ffs.

Not quite sure if that holds true for ever amen. Someone born in Belgrade pre 1990 was born in Yugoslavia. Someone born there in 2000 was born in Serbia.

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

For now. Not for much longer.

Maybe so, but a child born today in Belfast will always have been born in a British city. They will die having been born in a British city no matter what happens in the future.

This isn't about partition. Its a definition ffs.

On a serious note today is the 40th anniversary of the Narrow Water massacre and the assassination of Lord Mountbatten. Whatever your allegiance the loss of life, injury and destruction caused by the conflict in Northern Ireland was horrific. Let's hope that we never return to those days of murder and mayhem.

Matt Barrett wrote: »

If the real Dutch took over in the morning people born there would still be Irish, but they could choose to be Dutch I'd imagine.
French Polynesia; you're not born in France if you hail from Bora Bora.

Read the definition of nationality, see which answers fit the definition and job done. In the case of NI British and Irish fits the definition.

Its really not that difficult.

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

For now. Not for much longer.

Please do tell

Stop moaning ffs

jh79 wrote: »

Belfast is a British city

For now. Not for much longer.

Matt Barrett wrote: »

If the real Dutch took over in the morning people born there would still be Irish, but they could choose to be Dutch I'd imagine.

I'm afraid that's an analogy that is beyond my simple comprehension. But thank you for trying :cool:

Matt Barrett wrote: »

There's a unique duality though. They can choose to be Irish or British, but Irish born by longitude and latitude.

So Belfast is in/on Ireland, currently under British jurisdiction. Got it.

Still wrong. They are British by nation of birth.

They then chose the nationality they prefer but still are bound by the rules afforded to them by their nation of birth ie Britian.

One minute partition is the scourge of the island, the next its a figment of everybodies imagination! Bizarre.

holyhead wrote: »

Actually I don't think you have :P

If the real Dutch took over in the morning people born there would still be Irish, but they could choose to be Dutch I'd imagine.
French Polynesia; you're not born in France if you hail from Bora Bora.

Matt Barrett wrote: »

There's a unique duality though. They can choose to be Irish or British, but Irish born by longitude and latitude.

So Belfast is in/on Ireland, currently under British jurisdiction. Got it.

Actually I don't think you have :P

RobMc59

FrancieBrady wrote: »

blanch152 wrote: »

Rubbish.

It is offensive to British unionists to call them Irish - that is why their identity was protected in the GFA. They are not Irish, they were never Irish, being born on the island didn't make them Irish, even for a second, which bit of that do you fail to comprehend?

I fully embrace and respect their British identity as I respect the identity of the 2 Romanians who work here in my yard and the Brazilians who live and work in the town.

Ian Paisley and other confident Unionists have no problem with the concept. You are too easily triggered to get 'offended' on behalf of others.

I noticed Carrickmacross is also quite cosmopolitan when I was there on Saturday.

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Well, the fact they wouldn't know kinda consolidates my point. Belfast is a city IN Ireland which you may or may not know is under the jurisdiction of the UK.

How does it consolidate your point? Ignorance, no matter how common, doesn't change facts.

blanch152 wrote: »

Jurisdiction is what matters for citizenship, that is the whole point.

There's a unique duality though. They can choose to be Irish or British, but Irish born by longitude and latitude.

holyhead wrote: »

Legally you are incorrect Francie. Irrespective of your national identity Belfast is a city in Northern Ireland, which is a component part of the United Kingdom commonly known as Britain. I would love one day for Belfast to be the second largest city in Ireland but I have to settle for the reality that it is the second largest city on the island of Ireland.

What next Francie Gerry wasn't in the IRA

So Belfast is in/on Ireland, currently under British jurisdiction. Got it.

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Well, the fact they wouldn't know kinda consolidates my point. Belfast is a city IN Ireland which you may or may not know is under the jurisdiction of the UK.

Legally you are incorrect Francie. Irrespective of your national identity Belfast is a city in Northern Ireland, which is a component part of the United Kingdom commonly known as Britain. I would love one day for Belfast to be the second largest city in Ireland but I have to settle for the reality that it is the second largest city on the island of Ireland.

What next Francie Gerry wasn't in the IRA

jh79 wrote: »

Again Francie confusing Nationality with National Identity. National Identity is related to culture, Nationality is either your place or nation of Birth with no heirachy.

If a person doesn't know that Belfast is a British city on the Island of Ireland then that is ignorance on their part. A Belfast born British national would be correcting their ignorance not affirming their identity.

Well, the fact they wouldn't know kinda consolidates my point. Belfast is a city IN Ireland which you may or may not know is under the jurisdiction of the UK.

FrancieBrady wrote: »

'Identify' is the key word there blanch. You cannot 'identify' as anything until you know the difference.

Take two men from Belfast, a city in Ireland - you can say with certainty that both of them are from Ireland, you have to ask both of them what their 'identity' is. That is why 'flags' and kerbstones are important to some. They are visually telling you what their identity is.

Again Francie confusing Nationality with National Identity. National Identity is related to culture, Nationality is either your place or nation of Birth with no heirachy.

If a person doesn't know that Belfast is a British city on the Island of Ireland then that is ignorance on their part. A Belfast born British national would be correcting their ignorance not affirming their identity.

As it stands anyone born in the North is regarded automatically as a British citizen. It's nothing to do with a partioninst handbook. It is a fact. Northern Ireland is part of the United Kingdom. They can regard themselves as British or Irish subsequently.

maccored

blanch152 wrote: »

You know with legal certainty the minute they are born that they are British citizens. That is all. They can choose to identify as Irish or British or as we increasingly find, both.

what are you on about with 'legal certainty? the 'legal certainty' is if parents decide their child is born irish, then the child is irish. if they parents wish to class the child as british, then british it is. the child can then decide later on in life.

you arent from the north, you've rarely been there and increasing its becoming obvious you havent a clue about the place, so please - as a nordie born and bred - I ask you to go talk rubbish about some other part of the country you havent an iota about

blanch152 wrote: »

You know with legal certainty the minute they are born that they are British citizens. That is all. They can choose to identify as Irish or British or as we increasingly find, both.

That's straight out of the partitionist handbook.

Matt Barrett wrote: »

It's their right, yes. Beyond them being born on the island of Ireland. We can't be complaining about inferiority complexes as regards the British Isles on one hand and denying the geography of the island of Ireland on the other, why that's practically hypocritical.
You can be a British person from the U.K. born in Ireland. You don't have to get down to the Wolfe Tones to accept where you were born, regardless of the current jurisdiction that portion of Ulster currently falls under.

Jurisdiction is what matters for citizenship, that is the whole point.

FrancieBrady wrote: »

'Identify' is the key word there blanch. You cannot 'identify' as anything until you know the difference.

Take two men from Belfast, a city in Ireland - you can say with certainty that both of them are from Ireland, you have to ask both of them what their 'identity' is. That is why 'flags' and kerbstones are important to some. They are visually telling you what their identity is.

You know with legal certainty the minute they are born that they are British citizens. That is all. They can choose to identify as Irish or British or as we increasingly find, both.

blanch152 wrote: »

That is your opinion, but it is at variance with the facts. This is what the GFA says:

"recognise the birthright of all the people of Northern Ireland to
identify themselves and be accepted as Irish or British, or both, as they
may so choose, and accordingly confirm that their right to hold both
British and Irish citizenship is accepted by both Governments and would
not be affected by any future change in the status of Northern Ireland."

The legal position is that you are born British if you are born in the UK, but it is your birthright to identify yourself as Irish by choice. I don't know how many times I have had to explain this but you guys are like the camel with the head in the sand.

It's their right, yes. Beyond them being born on the island of Ireland. We can't be complaining about inferiority complexes as regards the British Isles on one hand and denying the geography of the island of Ireland on the other, why that's practically hypocritical.
You can be a British person from the U.K. born in Ireland. You don't have to get down to the Wolfe Tones to accept where you were born, regardless of the current jurisdiction that portion of Ulster currently falls under.

blanch152 wrote: »

That is your opinion, but it is at variance with the facts. This is what the GFA says:

"recognise the birthright of all the people of Northern Ireland to
identify themselves and be accepted as Irish or British, or both, as they
may so choose, and accordingly confirm that their right to hold both
British and Irish citizenship is accepted by both Governments and would
not be affected by any future change in the status of Northern Ireland."

The legal position is that you are born British if you are born in the UK, but it is your birthright to identify yourself as Irish by choice. I don't know how many times I have had to explain this but you guys are like the camel with the head in the sand.

'Identify' is the key word there blanch. You cannot 'identify' as anything until you know the difference.

Take two men from Belfast, a city in Ireland - you can say with certainty that both of them are from Ireland, you have to ask both of them what their 'identity' is. That is why 'flags' and kerbstones are important to some. They are visually telling you what their identity is.

blanch152 wrote: »

It explains why being born on this island doesn't make you Irish and also that while everyone else calls these islands the British Isles, the kneejerk inferiority complex that republicans have leads them to resent the name.

Hilarious from a man who cannot say the word 'Irish' without having a 'who might i be offending, conniption'.

Matt Barrett wrote: »

I'm cula bula with the 'British Isles'. It's like the Americas, where mexico is.
If you're born on the island of Ireland you are Irish. You might be British too and your part of Ireland might currently be associated with the U.K. currently.
The British and U.K. additions can be dispensed with by the stroke of a pen, but the land is Ireland....Tiocfaidh ar laR

That is your opinion, but it is at variance with the facts. This is what the GFA says:

"recognise the birthright of all the people of Northern Ireland to
identify themselves and be accepted as Irish or British, or both, as they
may so choose, and accordingly confirm that their right to hold both
British and Irish citizenship is accepted by both Governments and would
not be affected by any future change in the status of Northern Ireland."

The legal position is that you are born British if you are born in the UK, but it is your birthright to identify yourself as Irish by choice. I don't know how many times I have had to explain this but you guys are like the camel with the head in the sand.

blanch152 wrote: »

This was explained to you quite elegantly by Dytalus.

His post should be stickied.

It explains why being born on this island doesn't make you Irish and also that while everyone else calls these islands the British Isles, the kneejerk inferiority complex that republicans have leads them to resent the name.

I'm cula bula with the 'British Isles'. It's like the Americas, where mexico is.
If you're born on the island of Ireland you are Irish. You might be British too and your part of Ireland might currently be associated with the U.K.
The British and U.K. additions can be dispensed with by the stroke of a pen, but the land is Ireland....Tiocfaidh ar laR

Stop moaning ffs

blanch152 wrote: »

This was explained to you quite elegantly by Dytalus.

His post should be stickied.

It explains why being born on this island doesn't make you Irish and also that while everyone else calls these islands the British Isles, the kneejerk inferiority complex that republicans have leads them to resent the name.

Selective quoting. Again. Blanch. Try harder

Matt Barrett wrote: »

Do the Welsh no longer identify as Welsh? What of the English?

This was explained to you quite elegantly by Dytalus.

Dytalus wrote: »

He's making the point that there is (quite rightly) a difference between geographical locations (islands, continents, peninsulas and so forth), and countries (legal entities, wherein one draws their nationality). His argument is valid: A French citizen is a citizen of the legal entity that is the "French Republic", and not the landmass occupied by that state (the European/Eurasian continent...though granted the EU manages to make things less clear cut).

And, further, being born in a country does not guarantee citizenship either. In fact, birth alone almost never confers citizenship. I was born in the Middle East and do not have citizenship of the country I was born in. Individuals born in RoI are not automatically granted citizenship, nor are individuals born in the UK simply granted citizenship. Other requirements must be met before a baby born in either country is made a citizen. The US is actually pretty against the grain in that regard (New World nations tended to allow anyone born there to be citizens to help bolster their populations against the older, more populous, Old World nations they broke away from. Canada still has it, for example).

Ireland/Britain naturally has a slightly...more complicated history when it comes to identity and the names associated with various things. Most of the conflict on our island comes down to identities. I'd not be surprised if, had our history with the UK been different, we'd be just as okay with the Isles being called the British Isles as everyone else. But given everything that happened (and more modernly, in light of some 'Britwashing'* of Irish celebrities and institutions in the British media, and the undercurrent of 'uppity Irish' in British politics) I think it's perfectly fair for Irish people and the government to be against the catch all "British Isles" name.

I personally don't care, but I can definitely see where people against it come from.

*The tendency for Irish people to miraculously become 'British' in the news when they do something cool, like win an olympic medal, or play on the Lions rugby team. I just made up the term, but I like it.

His post should be stickied.

It explains why being born on this island doesn't make you Irish and also that while everyone else calls these islands the British Isles, the kneejerk inferiority complex that republicans have leads them to resent the name.