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Garda Restructuring Plan

jonsnow

Hi all

Wondering what everyone's thoughts are about the rollout of the new garda reform plan.

Its cutting the number of regions from 6 to 4 and divisions from from 28 to 19.The basic element of the plan involves flattening out the force’s management structure which will go some way towards freeing up more gardaí for frontline work.

I always thought that the force was top heavy and had too many "chiefs". The garda bodies are furious but seeing as they complained about pulse when it was introduced and wanted allowances for that Im not putting too much store by their whinging.

Drew Harris has said that he is not prepared to wait. No more committees are consultation. Im sure there will be drawbacks but overall looks like an improvement IMHO

Thoughts?

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jonsnow

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/views/analysis/garda-restructuring-plans-intent-displayed-augurs-well-for-the-future-945663.html

Drew Harris is about to earn his corn. The garda commissioner is embarking on a reform programme that is going to put noses out of joint. There will be fewer senior jobs available in the bright, new shining organisation. Career paths will be narrowed.

There will be opposition from outside the ranks of An Garda Siochana.

Politicians and others are already loosening their pipes to cry foul at the downgrading of some stations. And along the way there will disruption and possibly attempts to use the plan as a whipping boy whenever policing or criminal controversies arise, as they inevitably do periodically in any democracy.

Mr Harris will also, in all likelihood, have to face the reality somewhere along the line that his reform programme will not be possible without the deployment of additional resources.

The basic element of the plan involves flattening out the force’s management structure which will go some way towards freeing up more gardaí for frontline work.

There will now be four regions across the State rather than six. The number of garda divisions is to be cut from 28 to 19. Each division will be run as a mini police force overseen by a chief superintendent.

He or she will have four superintendents, two for community engagement, another for policing and crime and the fourth to monitor “performance assurance” in police work.

The new model is already being roadtested in four pilot projects in Dublin, Cork, Mayo and Galway. What is as yet unclear is the concrete evidence from those projects that resources are freed up and the flattened management structure is leading to a better deployment of resources.

One way or the other, the reform plan to some extent mirrors that being currently undertaken in the health service. Last month it was announced that the HSE was to be divided up into six new regional health areas with fewer managers, more frontline staff and greater autonomy over resources and budgets.

Just as the health plan cuts down on the number of managers, so the new garda plan will see a reduction of the level of chief superintendents and superintendents in the force. Within each of the reduced number of divisions, the work will now be divided among superintendents on a functional rather than geographic basis.

That a change of structure was required is beyond question. Resources under the existing structure were not well deployed. The setting up of regional areas in 1995 was sold at the time as some form of decentralisation, but, as with other State bodies, it became plagued by duplication of resources.

Garda restructuring plans: Intent displayed augurs well for the future

Recent scandals in the force were in some ways attributable to the existing structures. The Donegal and Bailiboro scandals which led to the Morris and Disclosures Tribunals respectively illustrate this. In both cases, the districts involved were considered transient postings which, by their nature, usually attracted newly-promoted superintendents.

Donegal is a beautiful part of the world where the characteristics of the natives are highly commendable, but not the place to linger too long if one’s career is on an upward trajectory. Similarly, it emerged in the Maurice McCabe story that Bailiboro, County Cavan had a succession of district officers who stayed a short time and never relocated their homes from Dublin to the Cavan area.

In such a milieu, discipline with the ranks went south. That, in turn, inevitably led to poor service for the public - or worse.

In the new model, community engagement has received a heightened emphasis. For that to be successful it will at least require less transience from superintendents irrespective of their posting.

The other issue concerning the new model for these district officers is how will resources be divvied up. Will, for instance, the officer in charge of monitoring 'performance assurance' have as many bodies under his or her command, or will the position owe more to window dressing?

In the existing structure, with geographic districts, everybody knew to whom they were answerable. While the change is vital, the new dispensation won’t be as easy.

Overall, the reforms, if successful, will free up more guards for frontline work but just as importantly the autonomy should lead to enhanced results in every facet of the force’s work.

There is much more to be done. The Commission on the Future of Policing had 50 recommendations in total. Areas such as oversight still need to be addressed and, in particular, the greater powers and autonomy recommended for the garda ombudsman requires attention.

Down through the years, a whole slew of reports has been issued, particularly from tribunals and the garda inspectorate, which made perfect sense but lay dormant because of the hassle that would be involved in implementation.

This time around it would appear that the garda commissioner Drew Harris has moved with relative speed to get change underway. Whether or not he is successful, the intent displayed augurs well for the future.

Potential-Monke

It's definitely needed, and I do have faith in Harris to pull this off. His biggest obstacles, as noted in the article, will be outside forces such as politicians and business owners. But a reduction of Garda management is warranted. When I was serving, I could see the waste of resources in duplicating work and having 'jobs for the boys'.

But I have a further recommendation. When I was serving, on the frontline, I could have been dealing with anything from burglaries, public order, traffic, maritime, robberies, thefts, sexual assaults, assaults, everything. It's high time AGS adopt the UK model for cities, insofar as the frontline police attend the incident and forward the statements/information to an investigating group, ie: I attend the scene of a burglary, gather as much evidence as I can including statements, and then forward them to the Burglary Unit. They would be dealing specifically with burglaries (possibly include robberies) so they would know trends, appearances, information, etc that as a frontline Garda I would either not be privy to or aware of.

The current way of the frontline doing most of the investigating for every incident they come across, with maybe some help from other units, just doesn't work. It ties up the frontline and causes delays attending other incidents. I believe the method above is used by the London MET and is far more effective. It's better for someone dealing with the same types of incidents and dealing with the usual heads who do this, to investigate those crimes. Leave the public order, etc to the frontline, there's usually little investigating involved as it's a case of 'I caught you doing this'.

Either way, any change is welcome if it means less office jobs and more investigating Gardaí.

JohnnyFlash

Harris is doing a great job so far. Very impressive.

Samuel T. Cogley

Massive civilianisation going on too pissing off some in the rank and file. He seems to be an equal opportunist.

gazzer

Lots of Civil Servants who are looking to move out of Dublin will potentially be offered places doing Admin work in garda stations to free up gardai time spent 'in the office' and instead out on the streets.

dundalkfc10

JohnnyFlash wrote: »

Harris is doing a great job so far. Very impressive.

I still see the Gardai refuse to enter certain streets in Dundalk.

I still see Youths going around cause trouble not giving a **** what happens them.

Not impressive at all!

[Deleted User]

The cultural aspect of it are interesting Miriam on morning Ireland RTE tried vainly to stir up an... us versus them, what areas of the country will be loosing out turf war view of it vainly tried to stir up some controversy the changes ect, it must have been a shock to the media RTE/Newstalk that the rank and file are not treating strike over this.

On a side note, if you get promoted in the Garda they should be required to live in the area with their family no remote management it should also be the same for all public service and consultants in the HSE. Modern transport and technology has made it too easy to stay in Dublin, culturally its is important that they are seen to be living in the area and are visible where they work.

ChikiChiki

dundalkfc10 wrote: »

JohnnyFlash wrote: »

Harris is doing a great job so far. Very impressive.

I still see the Gardai refuse to enter certain streets in Dundalk.

I still see Youths going around cause trouble not giving a **** what happens them.

Not impressive at all!

I'm sure he will get to that eventually. Personally I would like to see a higher calibre of person in the Guards. As part of their job, Guards should be required to be fit and well conditioned. And give them more than batons. They might be respected then. Elements of the force are laughable in its current state.

Potential-Monke

mariaalice wrote: »

On a side note, if you get promoted in the Garda they should be required to live in the area with their family no remote management it should also be the same for all public service and consultants in the HSE. Modern transport and techonolgy has made it too easy to stay in Dublin, culturally its is important that they are seen to be living in the area and are visiable where they work.

Unfortunately, those days are gone. The days of the local Garda knowing everyone and everything has passed, there are too many people and too many variables to have that happen. Look at the Community Policing Gardaí (may have been renamed since), even though they're specifically for community policing, but they will admit they don't know everyone aside from the usual heads and the usual complainers.

When I was a member, the last thing I wanted was to live where I work, aside from obvious security concerns, I didn't want to spend time in the place where i saw the worst of life. But, I agree it should be within 15/20 minutes of where you are stationed.

dundalkfc10 wrote: »

I still see the Gardai refuse to enter certain streets in Dundalk.

I still see Youths going around cause trouble not giving a **** what happens them.

Not impressive at all!

It's been less than a year, give the man a chance. He's rooting out the bad apples, restructuring the force and once he has more available frontline Gardaí, the ongoing issues in areas will be sorted.

Montage of Feck

The unions will be looking for another pay rise to ease their butthurt.

DEFTLEFTHAND

Harris is all about getting more guards on the street. The day of a cushy desk number will soon be a thing of the past in the Gardai, the vast majority of these roles will be civilianised.

The Force is changing, especially with the number new recruits coming through Templemore. It's really a case of out with the old in with the new with Drew Harris.

dundalkfc10

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

Harris is all about getting more guards on the street. The day of a cushy desk number will soon be a thing of the past in the Gardai, the vast majority of these roles will be civilianised.

The Force is changing, especially with the number new recruits coming through Templemore. It's really a case of out with the old in with the new with Drew Harris.

New recruits getting sent to Drogheda and Dundalk and them scared ****less of the scumbags running the towns.

This will def end well

The Tetrarch

Reading between the lines it looks like the new chief got no action from the multitude of bosses in the force, realised there will be no progress from those who have had their feet under the desk for decades, and got the ok from his boss to clear the decks.

Change needs change.

Fan of Netflix

I think this is a good idea. The posturing about "rural Ireland" is nonsense and I'm as pro rural Ireland as you'll find. That began because of a crimewave of burglaries and travelling gangs. Extra Gardai in rural areas does nothing to address that, sure they do very little when burglaries happen. Things like Operation Thor and a dedicated Burglary Unit work much better. The Guards in quieter areas spend most of their time on traffic issues and going after motorists.

In contrast lawless areas like Dublin city centre do not have near enough Gardai. There needs to be far more Gardai available and on the streets in Dublin. Sadly in many cases unassuming tourists suffer due to this.

Fan of Netflix

dundalkfc10 wrote: »

New recruits getting sent to Drogheda and Dundalk and them scared ****less of the scumbags running the towns.

This will def end well

If they weren't getting sent to Louth you'd be complaining too. If there wasn't so many knackers in Louth they wouldn't be needed.

There didn't seem to be much trouble at the Fleadh thankfully.

dundalkfc10

Fan of Netflix wrote: »

If they weren't getting sent to Louth you'd be complaining too. If there wasn't so many knackers in Louth they wouldn't be needed.

There didn't seem to be much trouble at the Fleadh thankfully.

Because the Gardai were everywhere in Drogheda during the Fleadh.

Was out in Dundalk Sat night, main street at 3am, about 4 diff fights, not 1 gardai car to be seen!

Fan of Netflix

dundalkfc10 wrote: »

Because the Gardai were everywhere in Drogheda during the Fleadh.

Was out in Dundalk Sat night, main street at 3am, about 4 diff fights, not 1 gardai car to be seen!

It's the same in most towns sadly. They have no real interest policing at night or dealing with the 3am street fights. Unless someone is badly injured and complaints are made the following days.

Sadly I see a man was critically injured from an assault in Navan Saturday night. And others got similar in Dublin. A lot of night time violence out there these days .

dundalkfc10

Fan of Netflix wrote: »

It's the same in most towns sadly. They have no real interest policing at night or dealing with the 3am street fights. Unless someone is badly injured and complaints are made the following days.

Sadly I see a man was critically injured from an assault in Navan Saturday night. And others got similar in Dublin. A lot of night time violence out there these days .

So they are not doing a good job, if they are not policing the place correctly!

Stovepipe

Civilianisation of posts previously held by serving policemen has always been controversial in police forces worldwide, until it was shown conclusively that certain forensic and technical jobs required a skill set and education that the average beat policeman simply didn't have. The claim was routinely made that civvies i sensitive posts would leak vital info to the media and / or criminals, but sadly, in many forces, the leakers turned out to be the cops themselves. Anyone trying to civilianise posts in the gardai will find the same old arguments against it being trotted out, despite all evidence to the contrary. The unions will either directly oppose it or will attack it indirectly, unless the GS management comes up with a tasty retirement package to pay off a layer of the middle management that they created in the first place.

Cee-Jay-Cee

Stovepipe wrote: »

Civilianisation of posts previously held by serving policemen has always been controversial in police forces worldwide, until it was shown conclusively that certain forensic and technical jobs required a skill set and education that the average beat policeman simply didn't have. The claim was routinely made that civvies i sensitive posts would leak vital info to the media and / or criminals, but sadly, in many forces, the leakers turned out to be the cops themselves. Anyone trying to civilianise posts in the gardai will find the same old arguments against it being trotted out, despite all evidence to the contrary. The unions will either directly oppose it or will attack it indirectly, unless the GS management comes up with a tasty retirement package to pay off a layer of the middle management that they created in the first place.

The Uk police went down the civilian route many years ago and have now started rowing back and putting police back into positions which were previously civilianised as the civilians simply didn't have the background knowledge or experience to compete the tasks to the same standard as trained police officers. These roles were in technical and forensic fields and its starting to happen in the administration side of criminal investigations also.

Stovepipe

The use of civilians for technical posts evolved because cases were being ruined by untrained policemen trampling all over crime scenes. Forensics simply had to get better and civilians brought their education to the job, that the average beat cop didnt have. These days, the average policeman has at least a school-leavers education with the ability to get a degree, if not actually holding one. Any force has to achieve a level ground between well qualified civilians and active policemen.

cannotlogin

Think this is long overdue and it's great it's finally happening.

Imagine a situation where every pilot had to serve the food and drinks on the plane, do the safety demos and check the tickets. People would laugh at the ridiculousness of it & consider it a massive waste of resources. Why is policing any different?

It's having an impact already. Talk to any guard at the moment and they'll tell you then know of many desk based guards who have already been advised of their new role.

Drew Harris appears to be making a long overdue impact on change.

Edgware

It was shown in Limerick that when resources are put in, criminals arrested AND the Courts restrict bail and give strong sentences serious crime can be dealt with.
The more common public order issues by piss heads can be dealt with by constant policing, arresting the offenders, rounding them up on warrant where they fail to appear in court.
Juveniles are given too much leeway with cautions time after time.