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Child Item

Galway Cycle Bus, Knocknacarra

bobbyss

Galway Bay had a piece about this group recently. School kids cycling to school along with adults. What a marvellous idea. And kudos to the organisers There's a video as well. One advantage from a safety point of view is that there's strength in numbers. Drivers can see a mass of colour moving and can adjust accordingly.

But one query Aren't cyclists supposed to use hand signals to indicate their intentions especially going through roundabouts? From the snippets I saw I wasn't sure the kids were doing this. I hope I am wrong.

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[Deleted User]

I guess it all comes down to what you think is the highest priority of road user and what the priority is for that road user.

Is it the car driver in a 2 ton car or the kid on a bike?

Is the priority the punctuality of the car user or the safety of the child on the bike?

This project is already expanding to other routes and schools and its only going to get bigger. I'd wager that this will be a normal part of commuting within 5 years in Galway city for most primary schools.

McTigs

jace_da_face wrote: »

. Incidentally, it is no 30 second delay getting stuck behind that cycle bus going from the Blake roundabout down to Aldi. Not by a long shot, according to my wife anyway. But hey, she’s just a gas guzzler too, so her and other drivers frustrations don’t matter.

30 seconds can feel like a long time when stuck behind cyclists.... but really, it's just 30 seconds.

Tell your wife to get up 5 minutes earlier, might save her getting frustrated first thing in the morning.

jace_da_face

McTigs wrote: »

30 seconds can feel like a long time when stuck behind cyclists.... but really, it's just 30 seconds.

Tell your wife to get up 5 minutes earlier, might save her getting frustrated first thing in the morning.

It’s not about my wife. It’s about drivers getting frustrated, rightly or wrongly, and trying to pass. A recipe for accidents.

xckjoo

Deleted User wrote: »

I guess it all comes down to what you think is the highest priority of road user and what the priority is for that road user.

Is it the car driver in a 2 ton car or the kid on a bike?

Is the priority the punctuality of the car user or the safety of the child on the bike?

This project is already expanding to other routes and schools and its only going to get bigger. I'd wager that this will be a normal part of commuting within 5 years in Galway city for most primary schools.

Hopefully ya. The amount of car traffic generated by the school runs these days is crazy. Areas near schools are a chaotic mess of cars and frustrated drivers. And there's all the moaning about traffic that we have to listen to. Then we see some programs like this that are actively reducing car travel (the largest contributor to traffic delays by a massive margin) and you still have people complaining.

Now excuse me while I jump in my car to avoid the rain while wallowing in my own hypocrisy

jace_da_face

Deleted User wrote: »

I guess it all comes down to what you think is the highest priority of road user and what the priority is for that road user.

Is it the car driver in a 2 ton car or the kid on a bike?

Is the priority the punctuality of the car user or the safety of the child on the bike?

This project is already expanding to other routes and schools and its only going to get bigger. I'd wager that this will be a normal part of commuting within 5 years in Galway city for most primary schools.

This getting rolled out on a big scale would likely be a good thing. It would be akin to a large protest. It would bring about a national debate. It would frustrate a lot of drivers on a national scale. It would probably force governmental change to improve infrastructure.

[Deleted User]

jace_da_face wrote: »

This getting rolled out on a big scale would likely be a good thing. It would be akin to a large protest. It would bring about a national debate. It would frustrate a lot of drivers on a national scale. It would probably force governmental change to improve infrastructure.

Yup

beardybrewer

I think what I find funny is the focus on their right to be in outside the cycle lane coincidentally on one of the few roads in Galway that actually has one. Now obviously when I'm cycling in traffic I don't want to annoy anyone and if there is a cycle lane I take it and if not I try to stay reasonably close to the curb out of the way. But I have every right to "take the lane" in order to turn right say. If I'm crossing Wolf Tonne bridge, again, I absolutely have the right to "take the lane" aka smack in the middle so no eejit can try to pass me so I can safely use the road too.

Remember, you're inconvenience is inside an air conditioned car, sipping a coffee, listening to the radio, and keeping dry. Don't expect the cyclists to feel bad for you if they hold you up for a few second while making a turn. Try and hold back and not pass within inches of our elbows or push us against the curb (which happens too often). We're totally exposed out there.

As far as the cycle bus goes I think common decency and sense should rule the day and probably only here does it not. Give them room, keep them safe, and adjust your time/route if you are inconvenienced.

what_traffic

jace_da_face wrote: »

Anyway, I didn’t want to go too far down the law route. I’m sure I could apply the letter of the law, and cycle in the road in such away as to become a nuisance, although I would probably get done for obstruction. Incidentally, it is no 30 second delay getting stuck behind that cycle bus going from the Blake roundabout down to Aldi. Not by a long shot, according to my wife anyway. But hey, she’s just a gas guzzler too, so her and other drivers frustrations don’t matter.

But forgive me for trying to suggest any reasons as to why we shouldn’t try do better with cycle behaviour and infrastructure, and more importantly, safety.

Wont forgive you as you are not playing Devils advocate - your just missing the point again and again.
Your Wife is NOT getting delayed because of the Cycle bus- she is getting delayed because of ALL the other cars (plus herself in the car) on the roads of Galway City. Electric Car, Gas guzzler SUV etc who cares. They all take up vast amounts of space.

The Cycle bus is NOT a traffic creator - it is a CAR traffic buster.

Don Juan II

jace_da_face wrote: »

So on the issue of the law and regulation, is that true about no requirement to use a cycle lane where one is available? All I can find on this is:

Article 14 of the Road Traffic (Traffic and Parking) Regulations 1997

14. (3) All pedal cycles must be driven on a cycle track where one is provided.

Anyway, I didn’t want to go too far down the law route. I’m sure I could apply the letter of the law, ...

Just to clarify - this was changed in 2018:
https: //irishcycle.com/2018/08/18/cyclists-dont-have-to-use-cycle-lanes-new-legislation-confirms/
The "letter of the law" does not state it is mandatory for a cyclist to use a cycle lane

(I can't post the URL)

jace_da_face

what_traffic wrote: »

Wont forgive you as you are not playing Devils advocate - your just missing the point again and again.
Your Wife is NOT getting delayed because of the Cycle bus- she is getting delayed because of ALL the other cars (plus herself in the car) on the roads of Galway City. Electric Car, Gas guzzler SUV etc who cares. They all take up vast amounts of space.

The Cycle bus is NOT a traffic creator - it is a CAR traffic buster.

And you are just being obstinate my friend! So what is the point I keep missing? That adding more and more cars adds more and more congestion? Is that your big point? Wow! That’s so clever.

Pitting cyclist and motorist against each other will achieve nothing. We keep hearing the same old arguments day after day on the radio, on TV, and nothing changes. Dublin hosted the Velo City cycle conference back in June. Did you hear how that went? It was berated by international attendees as not only were our streets and lanes deemed congested, disorganized and dangerous, but that they were exactly the same 10 years ago and nothing had changed.

Lots and lots of people have no choice but to get into their cars to commute in this city. It’s not the Netherlands out there. There are no other choices for many people. If you take the attitude that it doesn’t really matter if drivers are discommoded so long as we take a few cars off the road, then you will never achieve anything long term and worth while. If instead we think of ways of having cyclists and motorists both accommodated and add to that great public transport, then we have a city that moves. That’s how the Dutch think. It ain’t a competition to them. And eventually when people see how good it is to cycle or travel on public transport, they do so willingly. If you build it they will come.

If a group of cyclists cannot get safely down the WDR and keep in their lane, then it is not fit for their purpose. The lane needs to be segregated from the road. That’s not rocket science. If they can pull up trees in Dublin to put in extra bus lanes, I think we could take out a little bit of the grass verge to put in a better lane don’t you think?

Jace_da_face - motorist & cyclist.

xckjoo

jace_da_face wrote: »

And you are just being obstinate my friend! So what is the point I keep missing? That adding more and more cars adds more and more congestion? Is that your big point? Wow! That’s so clever.

Pitting cyclist and motorist against each other will achieve nothing. We keep hearing the same old arguments day after day on the radio, on TV, and nothing changes. Dublin hosted the Velo City cycle conference back in June. Did you hear how that went? It was berated by international attendees as not only were our streets and lanes deemed congested, disorganized and dangerous, but that they were exactly the same 10 years ago and nothing had changed.

Lots and lots of people have no choice but to get into their cars to commute in this city. It’s not the Netherlands out there. There are no other choices for many people. If you take the attitude that it doesn’t really matter if drivers are discommoded so long as we take a few cars off the road, then you will never achieve anything long term and worth while. If instead we think of ways of having cyclists and motorists both accommodated and add to that great public transport, then we have a city that moves. That’s how the Dutch think. It ain’t a competition to them. And eventually when people see how good it is to cycle or travel on public transport, they do so willingly. If you build it they will come.

If a group of cyclists cannot get safely down the WDR and keep in their lane, then it is not fit for their purpose. The lane needs to be segregated from the road. That’s not rocket science. If they can pull up trees in Dublin to put in extra bus lanes, I think we could take out a little bit of the grass verge to put in a better lane don’t you think?

Jace_da_face - motorist & cyclist.

I felt that your original post read as very much "get them off the road" too so maybe your wording didn't portray your intentions fully. Unfortunately we will have to discommode (new word for me so thanks for that :pac:) private car users to increase public transport and bike usage. It's tough to walk passed your car every day to stand at a bus stop. I think the only thing that'll change this is if it takes longer to drive than to take the bus.

The Dutch are an interesting example here. A big reason they have good cycling infrastructure is from the Stop de Kindermoord (stop the child murder) Protests of the 60's/70's where people took to the streets over the high levels of children being hit and killed by people driving cars. Lets hope it doesn't come to that here!

what_traffic

jace_da_face wrote: »

If a group of cyclists cannot get safely down the WDR and keep in their lane, then it is not fit for their purpose. The lane needs to be segregated from the road. That’s not rocket science. If they can pull up trees in Dublin to put in extra bus lanes, I think we could take out a little bit of the grass verge to put in a better lane don’t you think?

Jace_da_face - motorist & cyclist.

ITS NOT FIT FOR PURPOSE HENCE THE CYCLE BUS!
Now you are getting to the crux of the issue.

Do we wait for the next Generation of School Kids for this to happen?
City Council In 2010 costed this at only €10,000,000 for a City Smarter Travel Submission to upgrade full length of WDR for Bus Lanes and Cycle Paths similar to Seamus Quirke Road

If all those children on the Cycle were been driven to School - your wife would just hit that CAR traffic Q's a little earlier.

what_traffic - pedestrian, cyclist, public transport user and motorist, not involved in the CycleBus but support what they are doing.

what_traffic

jace_da_face wrote: »

Pitting cyclist and motorist against each other will achieve nothing. We keep hearing the same old arguments day after day on the radio, on TV, and nothing changes. Dublin hosted the Velo City cycle conference back in June. Did you hear how that went? It was berated by international attendees as not only were our streets and lanes deemed congested, disorganized and dangerous, but that they were exactly the same 10 years ago and nothing had changed.

Read all about Velo City 2019 in Dublin - IrishCycle.com was covering it in detail.

jace_da_face

The cycle bus is a symptom , not a solution. I just look at it and see danger. If they are costing it at €10,000,000 they are going over the top. Surely at that money they are talking about completely digging up the WDR like they did on the Seamus Quirke which is not needed. All they need do is add a path that integrates with the pedestrian crossings.

beardybrewer

Seriously guy, you're just being belligerent and stirring at this point.

You are daft to conflate the cycle bus with the city's traffic issues. It's an education/fitness programme. As pointed out already, if anything it is a net positive by taking cars off the road.

Much of the city does not have cycle lanes and guess what, you might have to deal with cycle buses there too hopefully soon. And they have every right to take the road.

what_traffic

jace_da_face wrote: »

The cycle bus is a symptom , not a solution. I just look at it and see danger. If they are costing it at €10,000,000 they are going over the top. Surely at that money they are talking about completely digging up the WDR like they did on the Seamus Quirke which is not needed. All they need do is add a path that integrates with the pedestrian crossings.

Are just been obtuse now?
Cycle bus is a citizens led solution.
And I thought the Council were bad for short term thinking.............:eek:

Mr_A

There is some interesting logic at play in this thread.

Cycle bus may delay motorists.
Motorists may therefore become frustrated and behave recklessly.
Therefore the cycle bus is a bad thing and should not be on the road rather than drivers whose reaction to a fairly insignificant delay is to endanger others.

It is amazing how low the bar is set by some for driver behavior!

jace_da_face

Hold your horses there guys. Did we or did we not agree that the cycle path on WDR is not fit for purpose, as in suitable for schools kids? If so, do we not then identify a need to upgrade it? Or is the goal just to obstruct cars? Get real guys or nothing will be achieved. We are just going around in circles.

There are schools along the WDR. Students would like to cycle, and parents would like to have to have their kids cycle. I think we have identified a need for safely allowing small kids to travel on their bikes. If you’re idea of doing that is to shield them from traffic, rather than build appropriate infrastructure, then what are you trying to achieve? To get one over on cars, or build a safe
long term solution?

jace_da_face

Mr_A wrote: »

There is some interesting logic at play in this thread.

Cycle bus may delay motorists.
Motorists may therefore become frustrated and behave recklessly.

Whatever about your conclusion, those two points are spot on. The safest and best way to design any traffic system around cyclists and motorists is to just assume drivers are reckless ass*****. Only then can you start to design a system that works.

xckjoo

jace_da_face wrote: »

Whatever about your conclusion, those two points are spot on. The safest and best way to design any traffic system around cyclists and motorists is to just assume drivers are reckless ass*****. Only then can you start to design a system that works.

That's a fair point. Safety needs to be built in, not regulated for after the fact, when clearly human nature is to act a different way (as we can all see from how people drive). The main problem is the speed cars travel at and peoples impatience at anything they perceive to be stopping them going as fast as they can. The roads should be designed to force people to travel at safer speeds. But nobody wants to hear that

what_traffic

All they need do is add a path that integrates with the pedestrian crossings.

Your proposed solution really was a short term hack

or build a safe long term solution?

- now you talking long term?

None of this is "Rocket Science" as you point earlier. Even City Council identified a need at least 10 years ago - but sat on hands for 9 years since. (Familiar storyline with the SQR/BOD.)
€10,000,000 is not much to spend and land is available on the Corridor. WDR is going to be a heavily used cycle and bus route corridor into the future.

In the mean time - CycleBus is going to continue. It is achieving its aim. i.e Kids ability to cycle to school. They cannot wait for Council to act. It is not delaying car users, the "other" cars are doing that for them.

jace_da_face

If you build it, they will come.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XuBdf9jYj7o

biko

what_traffic wrote: »

In the mean time - CycleBus is going to continue. It is achieving its aim. i.e Kids ability to cycle to school. They cannot wait for Council to act. It is not delaying car users, the "other" cars are doing that for them.

QFT

So many people focus on what should be done, what could be done, what's happening in London/Holland etc Lots of dream postings

CycleBus is fixing problems, and it's doing it right now.

Bredabe

biko wrote: »

QFT

So many people focus on what should be done, what could be done, what's happening in London/Holland etc Lots of dream postings

CycleBus is fixing problems, and it's doing it right now.

I saw a tweet from a well know to some weather broadcaster posting about a dangerous cycling experience she had with her kids. She referenced the cycle bus here and called for it to be expanded.

From this came tweets from other areas that were looking for parents to help with newly formed cycles busses, so it looks like its taking off and ppl will just have to live with that.

zell12

Does the existence of the cycle bus prove that parents take the view that the roads are dangerous? - ergo they are contributing to it
Kids cycling to school fifteen/twenty years ago was the norm

Mrs OBumble

beardybrewer wrote: »

You are daft to conflate the cycle bus with the city's traffic issues. It's an education/fitness programme. As pointed out already, if anything it is a net positive by taking cars off the road.

Much of the city does not have cycle lanes and guess what, you might have to deal with cycle buses there too hopefully soon. And they have every right to take the road.

Seems to me the bolded bit is the crux of the issue.

Educational programmes are run by qualified, registered educators. Schools are resourced to make them available to all enrolled children, and lots of health and safety principles are applied to make them as safe as possible.

This is a school-transport programme. It's run by community volunteers, outside of school hours. It likely gets some support from the school (promotional, access to garda-vetting, public liability insurance, bicycle parking) - probably more extra work for the school secretary than anyone else.

A walking-bus is just as effective for car-removal and fitness, be open to more children (ie ones whose families cannot afford bicycles or don't have adequate storage for them), and usually doesn't require extra infrastructure (most schools already have footpaths). The concept is well-established overseas - http://www.walkingschoolbus.org/ - but it's not-invented-here (more popular in the UK!) and may struggle to get volunteers because walkers usually don't have the same quasi-religious fervour as bicycle-users.

I totally agree that cyclists have every right to take the road. But I'm quite uncomfortable having children less than about 10 doing so: they usually haven't get developed the cognitive skills needed to understand the risks involved. For the same reason, I don't want to share a footpath with them on bicycles, they have no idea of the consequences of knocking me over.

donvito99

Boardsies discussing at length a means of killing, disrupting or, at the very least, discouraging the long standing tradition of children on the bikes they got on their birthdays or at Christmas from cycling to school, supervised if necessary.

All to make the people causing traffic mayhem a little less angry, so as to prevent them from causing possible serious injury to themselves and others as a result of their impatience.

Meanwhile, a taxi nearly ends some child in Renmore. Bastid thought he had the right to cross on a green man against someone who pays "road" tax! https://touch.boards.ie/thread/2058008486/2/#post111039017

Jesus wept