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New platform for Limerick junction

ongarboy

https://www.limerickleader.ie/news/home/307805/new-platform-planned-at-limerick-junction-to-keep-time-improvements-on-track.html

I never knew there was such a bottleneck on the Dublin Cork railway line that oncoming trains couldn't pass each other at the same time without giving way.

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dowlingm

Perfect except for the decent amount of expensive to maintain special work, and the 4-6 minutes it looks like IE will be able to get back judging by the initial fiddling with the timetable. Put in a bay on the other side and you could probably chop 10 minutes or more out of the journeys of Dublin to Clonmel passengers as the Waterford services are generally first in:last out of that “perfect” bay arrangement, backing into and out of the loop to get over there - but sure that is great for the lads watching it as opposed to the passengers inside and paying.

And as for railfreight at the Junction, what concrete prospects are there for that there versus other places in the network (beyond that “sidings are right there waiting for it”?)

Some of this seems of a job lot with your comment about “real trains” on the photo thread.

Del.Monte

I've said from the outset that the provision of this platform is some IE engineers wet dream - a bit like the last 'improvements' carried out at Ballybrophy. Net benefit to passengers zero- cost who cares.

goingnowhere

The problem was very simple to make connections at Limerick Junction work the trains to and from Dublin needed to be on the station at the same time to ensure the least time connection was possible for all. The current arrangements mean long waits for some passengers and delays when trains are delayed.

Dublin Cork is brutal in terms of on time performance as a result

The original Limerick Junction was designed so every train had to reverse at least once, great for train spotters but painful for the rest of us.

As of Sunday it will be possible to have all the trains arrive at once and depart together without any conflicts. This is the way the Swiss operate. The on time performance in Sept will be massively improved

noelfirl

goingnowhere wrote: »

The problem was very simple to make connections at Limerick Junction work the trains to and from Dublin needed to be on the station at the same time to ensure the least time connection was possible for all. The current arrangements mean long waits for some passengers and delays when trains are delayed.

Dublin Cork is brutal in terms of on time performance as a result

The original Limerick Junction was designed so every train had to reverse at least once, great for train spotters but painful for the rest of us.

As of Sunday it will be possible to have all the trains arrive at once and depart together without any conflicts. This is the way the Swiss operate. The on time performance in Sept will be massively improved

Shush there with your reasoned and measured consideration, you'll be bringing this place into disrepute. Don't you know IE are secretly planning on closing Limerick Junction forever this Christmas.

Christy Browne

Theoretically how much should this improve the Limerick-Waterford service?

goingnowhere

No impact at all, but it may be helped by fewer delays on Dublin Cork which delay the Limerick shuttle in turn so it will be more punctual

h.gricer

dowlingm wrote: »

Some of this seems of a job lot with your comment about “real trains” on the photo thread.

My comment on ''real trains'' was a a tongue in cheek comment directed at Del.Monte in the photo thread, purely entertainment, you obviously don't have the boards.ie sense of humour and rail freight I explained my cynical in overdrive, but the rest of my post on this crazy Limerick Junction project I'm deadly serious, the whole thing is absolutely daft, bring back the unique scissors crossing and for heavens sake stop wasting public money, why fix something that's not broke, and don't get me going on Ballybrophy, that's for another thread.
Regards
h.gricer

DoctorPan

h.gricer wrote: »

the whole thing is absolutely daft, bring back the unique scissors crossing and for heavens sake stop wasting public money, why fix something that's not broke

Ah yes, lets reintroduce scissor crossover, a complex piece of S&C, that the rail industry has moved away from from using in heavy rail environments and are engineering out of their permanent way due to the issues associated with them compared to standard S&Cs. Because that's not a waste of public money, installing trackwork that doesn't follow industry best practice and is known for it's issues.

Del.Monte

DoctorPan wrote: »

Ah yes, lets reintroduce scissor crossover, a complex piece of S&C, that the rail industry has moved away from from using in heavy rail environments and are engineering out of their permanent way due to the issues associated with them compared to standard S&Cs. Because that's not a waste of public money, installing trackwork that doesn't follow industry best practice and is known for it's issues.

What are these issues?

DoctorPan

Del.Monte wrote: »

What are these issues?

Increased maintenance cost and frequency due to the complexity of them, they wear out faster than regular S&C, place greater constants on the vertical alignment then regular S&C and stricter speed limits on them compared to equivalent crossovers.

Bar existing examples on heavy rail networks, most infrastructure owners are engineering them out during renewal projects and banned the install of new ones - baring unavoidable issues such as space, such is the issues with scissors crossings.

Del.Monte

Well that's very interesting but in decades of travelling between Dublin and Cork I can't remember ever seeing the said scissors crossover being renewed. Obviously it was from time to time but I wouldn't imagine that it would have remained in use for so many years if it was too expensive to maintain. Has passenger interchange been improved by the new platform - no. Has a chance been taken to improve the connection with the line to Waterford - no.

Quackster

tabbey

goingnowhere wrote: »

The current arrangements mean long waits for some passengers and delays when trains are delayed.

Dublin Cork is brutal in terms of on time performance as a result

The original Limerick Junction was designed so every train had to reverse

The problem at Lk Junction only started when IR closed the southern half of the mainline platform.

The original need to reverse into the mainline platforms ended in 1967 when crossovers were installed to allow trains drive straight in.
For about 40 years since 1967, the layout worked well, nobody had to cross any footbridge, they just walked along the level platform, or if changing from a Dublin train to the Limerick branch train, cross the platform.

The new regime will mean passengers struggling with luggage up the footbridge stairs when the lifts fail.

How long will this last before IR do what they did at Mallow, namely divert down trains to the up platform, so passengers can change train across the platform?

Jamie2k9

Mallow is slightly different where there no issues routing to up platform and causes no disruption.

Personally I think escalators should have also been installed. Limerick need to terminate at P3 to reduce the walk.

You could argue the platform wasn't really needed and 90% of current problems could be eliminated if common sense was used. They probably wouldn't have gotten the funding to spend elsewhere so they maybas well of used it.

dowlingm

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

You could argue the platform wasn't really needed and 90% of current problems could be eliminated if common sense was used.

Could you give an example of what this might look like?

@goingnowhere upthread mentioned the lack of conflicts from today on but surely Waterford is still disadvantaged by having to cross the mainlines, and therefore be early arriving and late departing?

EDIT: initial customer impressions going well https://twitter.com/despod/status/1165180864441049088

PreCocious

Looks like it was used a day early

https://twitter.com/despod/status/1165182828402921472?s=19

The_Wanderer

Sunday 25th August 2019:
Arguably the biggest change to Limerick Jct. since the 1967 alterations which allowed trains from Dublin direct access to platform 1, plus the direct curve to Limerick City occurred today with the opening of the new Platform 4 on the Down Line. The opening of this platform for Cork and Tralee bound trains allows a faster approach to the station instead of negotiating crossovers ranging from 15mph to 40mph to access the Up Platform as before.

A minor timetable change was introduced from today to take into account the opening of the new platform with trains operating up to 3 minutes faster south of Limerick Jct. than before. A future timetable should allow Up and Down trains to call at Limerick Jct. at the same time.

All Down Road services to Cork and Tralee will serve the new platform every day EXCEPT the following weekday services which will continue to serve Platform 1 (Up Platform)
07.00 Heuston - Cork,
21.00 Heuston - Cork.

Additionally and in a welcome move the 1500 Heuston - Cork (weekdays) will now call at Limerick Jct. with a connection to Limerick available. This plugs a 90 minute gap in the schedule from Dublin to Limerick.

Other photos from today come from Grange Level Crossing on the Thurles side of Limerick Jct.

Click https://bit.ly/31Z5vDB to view all the images from the weekend.

Grab All Association

PreCocious wrote: »

Looks like it was used a day early

https://twitter.com/despod/status/1165182828402921472?s=19

According to a member of staff there, it’s getting those smoking type shelters like the ones in Thurles. I don’t like how they’ve used tarmac instead of paving bricks. They did the same thing in Colbert, ripped up perfectly good tiles on the platform. Yes they were dated looking, but they could’ve replaced it with more modern looking tiles.

thomond2006

For those using the station to enter/exit, the walk between the entrance and platform 4 is pretty ridiculous. Any time saved from Dublin to Limerick J is negated by this.

dowlingm

@GAA: Combination of cost saving, easier to maintain for slip and fall, and new construction accessibility (clear distinction between platform and tactile edge)?

Nice to see that Limerick gets an additional connection thanks to the time saved - will be interesting to see if they net that out in December in order to create a faster service at a different time.

Del.Monte

thomond2006 wrote: »

For those using the station to enter/exit, the walk between the entrance and platform 4 is pretty ridiculous. Any time saved from Dublin to Limerick J is negated by this.

But as somebody previously, the budget had to be spent or it would be lost to the company. Utter BS that has the country ****ed up.

thomond2006

Del.Monte wrote: »

But as somebody previously, the budget had to be spent or it would be lost to the company. Utter BS that has the country ****ed up.

I'm not doubting a new platform was necessary but make modifications to put the footbridge at the station end of the platform.

I think we'll read and hear quite a number of complaints about this in the next few weeks. No big deal for me as I have two fully functioning legs but for disabled/elderly this isn't ideal. Plus LJ is grim and windy during poor weather periods.

91wx763

PreCocious wrote: »

Looks like it was used a day early

https://twitter.com/despod/status/1165182828402921472?s=19

That is really poor. Wee in the bottle stuff. An unconnected fishplate would be enough for an incident. And was the reversing move a signalled one ? Scotches and clips back through the facing points would have been the minimum.....

The_Wanderer

91wx763 wrote: »

That is really poor. Wee in the bottle stuff. An unconnected fishplate would be enough for an incident. And was the reversing move a signalled one ? Scotches and clips back through the facing points would have been the minimum.....

The route was available for use and has been for a few weeks, just not the platform. The move to the right platform was also signalled.

91wx763

The_Wanderer wrote: »

The route was available for use and has been for a few weeks, just not the platform. The move to the right platform was also signalled.

Thanks for clarifying that Wanderer.

Jamie2k9

dowlingm wrote: »

Could you give an example of what this might look like?

@goingnowhere upthread mentioned the lack of conflicts from today on but surely Waterford is still disadvantaged by having to cross the mainlines, and therefore be early arriving and late departing?

EDIT: initial customer impressions going well https://twitter.com/despod/status/1165180864441049088

Firstly the platform is a good addition however for 3 minutes was it worth €3.5 million considering the significant pressure on infrastructure.

Passengers traveling to Limerick (from Dublin) given 5 minutes to transfer and to Limerick (from Cork) given 9-10 mins. There is still around 10 minute gaps between a Cork/Dublin and Dublin/Cork service arriving at the junction. This was supposed to be eliminated. They could restore the xx.25 ex Cork to xx.30 and both services call at Limerick J at xx.30 and the shuttle departs xx.35.

This may not happened, possibly it would require two dispatchers at Limerick J among other reasons. In my opinion this weakens the business case for such a project which was meant to enable two trains arrive together not 5-10 minutes apart.

The approach to Limerick J as referenced by The Wanderer has been implemented by Irish Rail. The 15mph is relativity recent plus the positing of the points to allow trains access the platform. IR moved away from turnouts like Cherryville J because two crossovers (Waterford-Dublin) further apart would allow higher speeds which to be honest hasn’t exactly worked and IE are generally lowering not increasing speeds through crossovers.

Finally punctuality was a general problem and the route cause of disruption. Improved management of TSR's can help. Implementing 2-3 TRSs (routine not emergency) at the same time will eat into OTP and IE adopt prolonged TSR policy which can last for weeks or even months. I get it's probably down to financial pressure.

The single platform would work well with xx.40 (xx.40 ex Cork) and xx.30-35 (xx.00 ex Heuston). I mean it would be outrageous to contemplate a move away from xx.00 out of Heuston. The disruption caused by a single platform wasn’t particularly bad and generally became more apparent as they increased speeds without timetable adjustments.

Looking at a quick sample of services today, schedules are been operated by and it's more less the same as when a single platform was in use. I know this cannot be taken in isolation.

Right now the platform is not delivering what it should be and until both trains are schedule together the investment is questionable.

The_Wanderer wrote: »

The route was available for use and has been for a few weeks, just not the platform. The move to the right platform was also signalled.

Was there actually any valid reason to switch the train. What prevented customs going to the platform?

PreCocious

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Was there actually any valid reason to switch the train. What prevented customs going to the platform?

There were works going on on the footbridge - spot welding, grinding etc. It wouldn't have been practical to clear that work site.

The_Wanderer

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

There is still around 10 minute gaps between a Cork/Dublin and Dublin/Cork service arriving at the junction. This was supposed to be eliminated.

This will occur in a future timetable. A soft launch was undertaken.

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

The approach to Limerick J as referenced by The Wanderer has been implemented by Irish Rail. The 15mph is relativity recent

Platform 1 at Limerick Jct. has been 15mph since I became heavily interested in Irish Railways in the early 1990's and probably long before that.

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

The disruption caused by a single platform wasn’t particularly bad and generally became more apparent as they increased speeds without timetable adjustments.

While observing on Monday, the 1025 Cork - Heuston was 6 minutes late arriving into Limerick Jct. This resulted in the 1025 service and the 1000 Heuston - Cork being in Limerick Jct. at the same time. The new platform offers a significant performance win in the current timetable, even without the schedules yet being adjusted to have both trains in LJ at the same time. If this happened last week the 1000 service would have been delayed awaiting a platform.

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Right now the platform is not delivering what it should be and until both trains are schedule together the investment is questionable.

As stated earlier a soft launch was taken. A future timetable recast is needed to achieve it, which will impact on Mallow connections to/from Tralee.

Jamie2k9

The_Wanderer wrote: »

This will occur in a future timetable. A soft launch was undertaken.

Platform 1 at Limerick Jct. has been 15mph since I became heavily interested in Irish Railways in the early 1990's and probably long before that.

While observing on Monday, the 1025 Cork - Heuston was 6 minutes late arriving into Limerick Jct. This resulted in the 1025 service and the 1000 Heuston - Cork being in Limerick Jct. at the same time. The new platform offers a significant performance win in the current timetable, even without the schedules yet being adjusted to have both trains in LJ at the same time. If this happened last week the 1000 service would have been delayed awaiting a platform.

As stated earlier a soft launch was taken. A future timetable recast is needed to achieve it, which will impact on Mallow connections to/from Tralee.

It's a very soft launch and IE will probally never tighten the schedule to maximize its full potential. The typical two minute stop is taking 3-4 minutes even when Limerick shuttle is on time or early. That reduces the 3 minutes saving.

I do realize it is still very new and if I am honest I felt they would leave the existing schedules apart from 17.00 when it opened for a few weeks.

Quackster

I can't see how you could run Dublin-bound trains later to arrive at LJ at the same time as Cork-bound trains without completely screwing up Kerry services.

Unless you installed a passing loop halfway between Rathmore and Killarney. Which obviously is not going to happen...