The Dominance of Dublin GAA Mod warning post#1

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

Again, read the first point - dublin dont produce the gate receipt alone, and if you look at their numbers as a percenrage of their overall numbers, they actually perform terribly.
Furthermore, their numbers are dropping noticeably, and when you consider their actual fundraising figures from within the county are in fact noticeably meagre, you start to realise that they are in fact getting as much if not more money out of the gaa than they are putting in.

Again, I imagine the rest follows a similar vein so I didnt bother reading it

I made a different point so maybe you should read it based on the 'grant talk' and ELO ratings and how they can be applied to the GAA.

Martina1991 wrote: »

Looking at net spending is a fairly useless measure. Every county had different expenditure each year based on number of games played, where they had to travel to, etc. When Dublin rarely have to leave Croke Park, you'd wonder how their expenses are just behind Mayo's.

Mayo and other Connacht counties have trips to NY and London. Mayo also generate most of their income from fundraising.

"Mayo were the third biggest spenders in 2017 (behind Cork and Dublin) with €1,542,547 on team preparation but their fundraising vehicles through Cáirde Mhaigheo produced staggering returns of over €900,000". https://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/gaelic-football/25000-packages-see-mayo-poised-for-new-york-windfall-37811504.html

But that is the whole point - they want to ignore fixed costs on purpose, because they dont have any and everyone else, and their rivals in particular, have loads. So they state it in a way that hides this. Its sad stuff. Its as if they think will lose all these advantages, if they admit them, on an anonymous internet forum...

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

I made a different point so maybe you should read it based on the 'grant talk' and ELO ratings and how they can be applied to the GAA.

Ok, I will read them if you admit that the point about dublin not being the biggest spenders is in fact not actually the truth because per game dublin outspent everyone, despite having virtually zero fixed costs compared to their rivals...

threeball

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

I read your first point there gormdubhgorm and straight away, it was clear that it was a disingenuous one. Mayo played far more games than the second biggest spenders that year, so obviously they are going to have more costs due to the expenses incurred - the same expenses that the second highest spendig team; dublin don not have.
And yet, if you calculate the per game spend, despite all these extra fixed costs, Dublin still spent more than them. Case closed on that one - 100% disproven. But no doubt you will regurgitate it again at a later date.

I assume the rest of your point follows the same biased massaging of facts, so I didnt bother reading it.

It also handily ignores all the travel expenses, hotel rooms etc. that other counties have to bear that Dublin don't which pushes the Dublin spend on the things that make a difference further in front again.

threeball wrote: »

It also handily ignores all the travel expenses, hotel rooms etc. that other counties have to bear that Dublin don't which pushes the Dublin spend on the things that make a difference further in front again.

Yes, that is what I meant by fixed costs, i.e. things they cant get out of paying that dublin dont have to pay. Sorry, I should have stated it more clearly

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

But that is the whole point - they want to ignore fixed costs on purpose, because they dont have any and everyone else, and their rivals in particular, have loads. So they state it in a way that hides this. Its sad stuff. Its as if they think will lose all these advantages, if they admit them, on an anonymous internet forum...

You are not very good at reading posts are you.
You only see obvious advantages to Dublin being in Dublin.
You do not see the costs involved, the problems that overpopulation brings when not served by enough of clubs.

Finglas, with a bigger population than Leitrim, has only one GAA club, Erins Isle. Clondalkin, with a population of nearly 50,000 also has only one club, Round Towers, Jim Gavin's club. Neither club has competed at the top level of Dublin GAA for many years.

I do realise that many clubs down the country struggle to survive they have the opposite problem not enough people.
They amalgamate because they decimated by emigration.
I realise that Mayo is a county that has suffered more from emmigration than most.

But the difference is I realise the disadvantages that Mayo have, but you do not see any disadvantages for Dublin GAA at all intangible or tangible.
Dublin are trying thier best to rise Gaelic Games across the board in the face of stiff competition from Rugby and Soccer (Rugby in particular Rugby world cup)
It is the typical view that country people have of Dublin that they 'get everything up there' - not realising the issues on the ground.

Also there is another critical point you are missing, Dublin was earmaked to
help promote the growth of hurling in Ireland.
At this stage you can maybe say here are only two true Dual counties in Ireland - Dublin and Galway.
Hurling badly needs a successful Dublin to make the game grow, but despite the funding it has not happened - Dublin have arguably regressed in the last 6 years.

Also Dublin have done wonders for ladies football - trying to put it up to Cork.
Imagine if Dublin did not put the effort into ladies football where would it be today.
Cork would be winning even more than they have done.
Would that be good for the game and promotion and interests in women's sport?

threeball

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Martina1991 wrote: »

Looking at net spending is a fairly useless measure. Every county had different expenditure each year based on number of games played, where they had to travel to, etc. When Dublin rarely have to leave Croke Park, you'd wonder how their expenses are just behind Mayo's.

Mayo and other Connacht counties have trips to NY and London. Mayo also generate most of their income from fundraising.

"Mayo were the third biggest spenders in 2017 (behind Cork and Dublin) with €1,542,547 on team preparation but their fundraising vehicles through Cáirde Mhaigheo produced staggering returns of over €900,000". https://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/gaelic-football/25000-packages-see-mayo-poised-for-new-york-windfall-37811504.html

Dublin rarely leave croke park yes but there are vast differences in enomiies of scale that counties outside Dublin do not have to contend with.
Building/Land prices, availability of green fields for youngsters to play on, insurance costs etc, etc.

Granted Mayo do things very well, and should be commended for it thier fans give tremendous support, and thier county board and players obviously put in above and beyond normal efforts compared to many other counties.

So now you're claiming the spend on inter county in Dublin is higher because of green space costs for kids and and buildings you've never had to pay for as it was given by Croke park or DCU. The mind boggles

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

You are not very good at reading posts are you.
You only see obvious advantages to Dublin being in Dublin.
You do not see the costs involved, the problems that overpopulation brings when not served by enough of clubs.

It would appear you arent that good at it either.. No admittance of the fudge on the spending as was requested? I wont be doing as you requested either then...

Re overpopulation, it isnt served by one county team either. If fact that is the root of a lot of your issues... That doesnt seem to be up for discussion though. Tells its own story

Martina1991

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Dublin rarely leave croke park yes but there are vast differences in enomiies of scale that counties outside Dublin do not have to contend with.
Building/Land prices, availability of green fields for youngsters to play on, insurance costs etc, etc.

Granted Mayo do things very well, and should be commended for it thier fans give tremendous support, and thier county board and players obviously put in above and beyond normal efforts compared to many other counties.

Again, other counties have to dig deep and pay heavily to develop their facilities. The new stand in MacHale park cost over 18m. The centre of excellence built in Bekan, Ballyhaunis cost around 10m.

The redevelopment of Pc Uhaoimh cost 110m.

Yet Dublin don't pay to develop a stadium of their own when Parnell park has long been unfit for purpose as a home ground.

Martina1991 wrote: »

Again, other counties have to dig deep and pay heavily to develop their facilities. The new stand in MacHale park cost over 18m. The centre of excellence built in Bekan, Ballyhaunis cost around 10m.

The redevelopment of Pc Uhaoimh cost 110m.

Yet Dublin don't pay to develop a stadium of their own when Parnell park has long been unfit for purpose as a home ground.

As for PUC they are being heavily subsisted and bailed out by the GAA - the cost overrun was largely due to neglience on the part of Cork GAA.
They do not seem to be managing the situation very well.

It was thought about building another stadium in Dublin but at Dublin prices the costs proved way too prohibitive to make economic sense.
Not only that NAMA got in the way.
Instead it was focused on coaching.

But don't have a 'centre of excellence' like Ballyhaunis or up in Tyrone - tyrones one was 8m

https://tyronegaa.ie/club-tyrone/garvaghey-centre/

Dublin have spent 9m on the purchasing of the Spawell site in view of building a centre of excellence in the future.
Note the cost of the site alone was 9m - Tryone built thier entire centre of excellence for less than that with 1m to spare.

In Dublin land is always earmarked for housing first not facilities because of the housing shortage

https://www.the42.ie/john-costello-dublin-gaa-nama-land-sports-facilities-4379679-Dec2018/

Mayo and Tyrone do not have the issues with Greenfield sites that Dublin have also I feel there is misconception of how long it takes to travel in Dublin.

17k is nothing in the country but it could take 2/2.30 hours to travel from the Northside to Tallaght /UCD for example

Gachla wrote: »

Let's just have a look at what the Games Development Funding is spent on. It's coaches, professional coaches. Dublin have been given over 20 million to pay the wages of these coaches since 2005, funding started before then but it's hard to find the exact numbers. The deal was that clubs had to pay about half of the wages of the coach, this deal was not available to any other county. So about 40 million has been spent on professional coaches since 2005.
So what do these coaches do? Well let's go back to the start, how did it all come about? As most of you know, Bertie Ahern was a major figure in all of this. Without him this would not have been possible. The then Dublin County Board chairman John Bailey went to him and said they desperately need help. Bertie says ""He'd done a survey and the conclusion was that we needed to professionalise the game, we needed to get coaches." Bertie was determined to help but how would he be able to justify giving public money to Dublin GAA? "We had to gear the whole thing back to school because that was the only way I could justify the money."

The professional coaches do go into schools, they teach the basics to the students, they encourage them to join the club their affiliated with but are clubs paying large amounts for schools to get a PE teacher? No, they are not. Dublin County Board's Strategic Program Manager Kevin O'Shaughnessy: "The coaches work very much in tune with what the particular club wants." The coaches all qualified and trained up to a high level. More from O'Shaughnessy: "It is a high standard that allows them to train the trainers in each club to a high quality." Dublin Coaching and Games Manager Ger O'Connor says "The coaches don't just concentrate on hurling or football. They organise everything within a club and camogie and ladies football get the benefit too."

These coaches have obviously been a huge help to the club game in Dublin. Dublin clubs have won 30 Leinster and All Ireland titles since 2001 in both Ladies and men's senior competitions, they won 9 in the 18 years prior to that. That's a huge increase but obviously an increase in standards of club players will lead on to higher quality players available for inter county selection. This becomes apparant from a young age. Here's long serving Dublin GAA GPO/GDA Pauric McDonald on the differences he observed from when he set out 2 decades ago: "I went back the following year to an U15 development squad. And if you were to compare the quality of player coming through then to the U13s now, the difference is night and day. Kids were coming into us without the basic skills. They were kick-passing a five-yard pass instead of hand-passing it but their instinct was to kick it along the ground. So they obviously hadn’t been exposed to any level of coaching. I look now at U14 football in Dublin and the standard of football in the county is phenomenal. The level of individual skill the players have, the level of coaching teams, it’s incomparable to the late ’90s, early ’00s. And a big reason why is obviously the GDO system going into Dublin."

The increase in standards predictably has led to an increase in underage titles across the board and of course, this has led onto the increased titles Dublin have gained at senior level. This all gives a good summary of the Games Development Funding, what it has been spent on and the improvements that have been gained off the back of it. All the quotes in this post are from people who are involved in Dublin GAA and who have an active interest in defending them from accusations of financial doping. Even they can't deny the benefits that having a huge line of professional coaches has had. They play such a key role in the system but of course, it's only the start. The finance involved in other areas such as team preparation etc is also vital. However, as former Dublin hurling manager Humphrey Kelleher states: "But above everything it is the quality of the coaching that has made the biggest difference."

threeball

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Martina1991 wrote: »

Again, other counties have to dig deep and pay heavily to develop their facilities. The new stand in MacHale park cost over 18m. The centre of excellence built in Bekan, Ballyhaunis cost around 10m.

The redevelopment of Pc Uhaoimh cost 110m.

Yet Dublin don't pay to develop a stadium of their own when Parnell park has long been unfit for purpose as a home ground.

As for PUC they are being heavily subsisted and bailed out by the GAA - the cost overrun was largely due to neglience on the part of Cork GAA.
They do not seem to be managing the situation very well.

It was thought about building another stadium in Dublin but at Dublin prices the costs proved way too prohibitive to make economic sense.
Not only that NAMA got in the way.
Instead it was focused on coaching.

But don't have a 'centre of excellence' like Ballyhaunis or up in Tyrone - tyrones one was 8m

https://tyronegaa.ie/club-tyrone/garvaghey-centre/

Dublin have spent 9m on the purchasing of the Spawell site in view of building a centre of excellence in the future.
Note the cost of the site alone was 9m - Tryone built thier entire centre of excellence for less than that with 1m to spare.

In Dublin land is always earmarked for housing first not facilities because of the housing shortage

https://www.the42.ie/john-costello-dublin-gaa-nama-land-sports-facilities-4379679-Dec2018/

Mayo and Tyrone do not have the issues with Greenfield sites that Dublin have also I feel there is misconception of how long it takes to travel in Dublin.

17k is nothing in the country but it could take 2/2.30 hours to travel from the Northside to Tallaght /UCD for example

Ah c'mon get real. I spend half my working week in Dublin and in 20yrs in some of the worst traffic jams imaginable has it ever taken me 2.30hrs to across the city never mind from tallaght to UCD. It's not that difficult get around Dublin at all except for the peak of rush hour and they're not training at either of those times.

Gachla wrote: »

Let's just have a look at what the Games Development Funding is spent on. It's coaches, professional coaches. Dublin have been given over 20 million to pay the wages of these coaches since 2005, funding started before then but it's hard to find the exact numbers. The deal was that clubs had to pay about half of the wages of the coach, this deal was not available to any other county. So about 40 million has been spent on professional coaches since 2005.
So what do these coaches do? Well let's go back to the start, how did it all come about? As most of you know, Bertie Ahern was a major figure in all of this. Without him this would not have been possible. The then Dublin County Board chairman John Bailey went to him and said they desperately need help. Bertie says ""He'd done a survey and the conclusion was that we needed to professionalise the game, we needed to get coaches." Bertie was determined to help but how would he be able to justify giving public money to Dublin GAA? "We had to gear the whole thing back to school because that was the only way I could justify the money."
The professional coaches do go into schools, they teach the basics to the students, they encourage them to join the club their affiliated with but are clubs paying large amounts for schools to get a PE teacher? No, they are not. Dublin County Board's Strategic Program Manager Kevin O'Shaughnessy: "The coaches work very much in tune with what the particular club wants." The coaches all qualified and trained up to a high level. More from O'Shaughnessy: "It is a high standard that allows them to train the trainers in each club to a high quality." Dublin Coaching and Games Manager Ger O'Connor says "The coaches don't just concentrate on hurling or football. They organise everything within a club and camogie and ladies football get the benefit too."
These coaches have obviously been a huge help to the club game in Dublin. Dublin clubs have won 30 Leinster and All Ireland titles since 2001 in both Ladies and men's senior competitions, they won 9 in the 18 years prior to that. That's a huge increase but obviously an increase in standards of club players will lead on to higher quality players available for inter county selection. This becomes apparant from a young age. Here's long serving Dublin GAA GPO/GDA Pauric McDonald on the differences he observed from when he set out 2 decades ago: "I went back the following year to an U15 development squad. And if you were to compare the quality of player coming through then to the U13s now, the difference is night and day. Kids were coming into us without the basic skills. They were kick-passing a five-yard pass instead of hand-passing it but their instinct was to kick it along the ground. So they obviously hadn’t been exposed to any level of coaching. I look now at U14 football in Dublin and the standard of football in the county is phenomenal. The level of individual skill the players have, the level of coaching teams, it’s incomparable to the late ’90s, early ’00s. And a big reason why is obviously the GDO system going into Dublin."
The increase in standards predictably has led to an increase in underage titles across the board and of course, this has led onto the increased titles Dublin have gained at senior level. This all gives a good summary of the Games Development Funding, what it has been spent on and the improvements that have been gained off the back of it. All the quotes in this post are from people who are involved in Dublin GAA and who have an active interest in defending them from accusations of financial doping. Even they can't deny the benefits that having a huge line of professional coaches has had. They play such a key role in the system but of course, it's only the start. The finance involved in other areas such as team preparation etc is also vital. However, as former Dublin hurling manager Humphrey Kelleher states: "But above everything it is the quality of the coaching that has made the biggest difference."

So basically what you are saying is TLDR Dublin very astutely used funds given to them and this annoys you.
You would have had much preferred if Dublin GAA turned in a Parnell's GAA situation.

https://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-football/a-spectacular-reversal-of-fortune-28955015.html

Parnells GAA got 22m in one go.

To put it in context Over 7m more than the 15m Dublin GAA have received in a whole decade and look at where they are now.

To reiterate that was 22m one GAA club!

In fairness for some counties big projects are too much for them PUC Cork-

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/sport/gaa/five-takeaways-from-the-ongoing-financial-difficulties-at-pairc-ui-chaoimh-892095.html

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/sport/gaa/croke-park-firm-takes-over-pairc-ui-chaoimh-management-891238.html

Plus they let Cork football fall into Div3

The fact is that Dublin GAA have shown with the right plan, right structure - being implemented. And a spectacular generation of players has emerges as well this means that a massive difference can be made.

The players are not there/or at the exceptional level in hurling or ladies football/camogie otherwise the level of success would be up there with the football.
Hopefully the ladies footballers will match thier male counterparts some day, and the game of hurling grows because of successful Dublin hurling team

threeball wrote: »

Ah c'mon get real. I spend half my working week in Dublin and in 20yrs in some of the worst traffic jams imaginable has it ever taken me 2.30hrs to across the city never mind from tallaght to UCD. It's not that difficult get around Dublin at all except for the peak of rush hour and they're not training at either of those times.

I did not say from Tallaght to UCD I said from the Northside of Dublin to UCD for example.
Plus it is in peak times the players have to travel in from work.
Rural counties do not have this unless a tractor causes a few minutes jam.

corny

Round and round we go.

Seriously.... how do you lads not get tired of this?

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

So basically what you are saying is TLDR Dublin very astutely used funds given to them and this annoys you.
You would have had much preferred if Dublin GAA turned in a Parnell's GAA situation.

No, I just quoted former Dublin County Board Chairman, John Bailey, former Taoiseach Bertie Ahern, Dublin County Board's Strategic Program Manager, Kevin O'Shaughnessy, Dublin Coaching and Games Manager, Ger O'Connor, Dublin GAA GPO/GDA Pauric McDonald and former Dublin hurling manager, Humphrey Kelleher. They all speak of the influence the professional coaches have had on Dublin GAA. Are they all liars?

salmocab

Gachla wrote: »

No, I just quoted former Dublin County Board Chairman, John Bailey, former Taoiseach Bertie Ahern, Dublin County Board's Strategic Program Manager, Kevin O'Shaughnessy, Dublin Coaching and Games Manager, Ger O'Connor, Dublin GAA GPO/GDA Pauric McDonald and former Dublin hurling manager, Humphrey Kelleher. They all speak of the influence the professional coaches have had on Dublin GAA. Are they all liars?

Your asking is Bertie Ahern a liar?

salmocab wrote: »

Your asking is Bertie Ahern a liar?

I asked were they all liars?

Gachla wrote: »

No, I just quoted former Dublin County Board Chairman, John Bailey, former Taoiseach Bertie Ahern, Dublin County Board's Strategic Program Manager, Kevin O'Shaughnessy, Dublin Coaching and Games Manager, Ger O'Connor, Dublin GAA GPO/GDA Pauric McDonald and former Dublin hurling manager, Humphrey Kelleher. They all speak of the influence the professional coaches have had on Dublin GAA. Are they all liars?

You have diverted onto something else again once we start discussing the nitty gritty.
Which seems be your MO.
If you read my post I never said anything of the sort.

I merely stated all the factors that have contributed to the current Dublin squad's success.
How although they are successful - money does not translate to success -
(an issue you repeatedly swerve and dodge like a Dessie Farell run in his heyday, or a Jack Mc surge down the pitch)

I have stated
How the Dublin hurlers have regressed despite coaching/funding in the last 6 years.
How Dublin ladies football has thankfully progressed for the sake of women's football.
How Dublin were very astute overall in investing in coaching, with a plan, a structure, while other counties/club did not do the same at thier own levels.- Parnells GAA/Cork GAA - Meath GAA- money was wasted or the right people were not in charge.

It will be interesting how the GAA's East Leinster strategy works with counties like Kildare

https://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/1-5m-gaa-funding-boost-for-east-leinster-project-34934104.html

http://kildaregaa.ie/wp-content/uploads/sites/31/2018/12/Kildare-GAA-Strategic-Plan-2019-2023.pdf

When funding is increased to other counties - the question is will they have the people in place, management, players, admin to take advantage of it?

I wait with bated breath.....

PS if you are asking are any of them liars - look up John Bailey v Tommy Carr and make your own mind up.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Bailey_(Irish_politician)#Sacking_of_Dublin_manager_Tommy_Carr

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

You have diverted onto something else again once we start discussing the nitty gritty.

No, I have quoted important players in first getting the increased funding and others who've implemented plans using it and also one of the professional coaches themselves. All of them speak of the importance of the increased number of professional coaches. Do you doubt their word? Do you disagree with them? If so, can you give some reasons as to why they are wrong? You're not disagreeing with me here, it's former and current members of the Dublin County Board, a former Dublin hurling manager and a former Taoiseach you're disagreeing with.

Gachla wrote: »

No, I have quoted important players in first getting the increased funding and others who've implemented plans using it and also one of the professional coaches themselves. All of them speak of the importance of the increased number of professional coaches. Do you doubt their word? Do you disagree with them? If so, can you give some reasons as to why they are wrong? You're not disagreeing with me here, it's former and current members of the Dublin County Board, a former Dublin hurling manager and a former Taoiseach you're disagreeing with.

Again I that is not what I said re-read my post.
I cannot state it much more clearly.
You would want to hurry up though the AI hurling is on at half 3.
Maybe you don't watch hurling I don't know....

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Again I that is not what I said re-read my post.
I cannot state it much more clearly.
You would want to hurry up though the AI hurling is on at half 3.
Maybe you don't watch hurling I don't know....

Do you agree with them or not? It's a pretty simple question.

All this talk about Dublin... while Kilkenny play their 15th All Ireland final since 2000. Funny world

Duffy the Vampire Slayer

Deleted User wrote: »

All this talk about Dublin... while Kilkenny play their 15th All Ireland final since 2000. Funny world

Kilkenny definitely aren't achieving all that because of any unfair advantages they have recieved.

Duffy the Vampire Slayer wrote: »

Kilkenny definitely aren't achieving all that because of any unfair advantages they have recieved.

The thread is about dominance as per the title. Kilkenny are more dominant in hurling over the last 20 years than Dublin are in football.

The high horse brigade

[Deleted User] wrote: »

The thread is about dominance as per the title. Kilkenny are more dominant in hurling over the last 20 years than Dublin are in football.

Nope

Deleted User wrote: »

The thread is about dominance as per the title. Kilkenny are more dominant in hurling over the last 20 years than Dublin are in football.

It's about the dominance of Dublin GAA. Not just their footballers. They have won 103 Leinster, National League and All Ireland titles in men's and women's competitions since 2001. Of course, the money disparity would be wrong even if they won 0 titles.

The high horse brigade wrote: »

Nope

You disagree that Kilkenny are more dominant? It’s a fact...