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The Dominance of Dublin GAA Mod warning post#1

seligehgit

Discussion of all matters relating to this contentious subject is welcome and the potential implications of same.This thread is solely for this purpose.

There appears to be a perception that the moderators are attempting to shut down discussion of this topic and direct same off to a low traffic stickied thread.Nothing could be further from the truth.Our sole motive was to confine discussion to a single thread and prevent cross thread posting which was adversely affecting the enjoyment of fellow posters.

Can we please keep posts civil and constructive in nature.

The Changes in the GAA-super thread is now for discussion of all other suggested reforms not relating to Dublin GAA.

Extra Mod Warning:
Right, a separate warning to both sides in this debate:
Firstly, any more mentioning of "financial doping" or any intimation that rules have been broken by Dublin or that Dublin have cheated are banned from now on. You can debate the issue of the funding that Dublin have received without resorting to that. There is zero evidence of it and posting about it will be considered trolling from here on in.

Secondly, this topic is, like it or not, a big talking point in gaelic football at the moment. You are more than welcome to argue your point, but posting in this thread to simply mock those on the other side or complaining about the topic is known as thread spoiling and is specifically banned in the charter (see point 8 here). No one is forcing you to click on this thread and no one is forcing you to post in it. If you don't like the topic, then don't post. It's as simple as that.

This thread is here so that all the discussion is in one place and it won't filter into other threads. This makes it easier to ignore for posters who don't really want to be involved in it. As a result, we haven't really been moderating it as severely as other threads. However, a number of posts recently from both sides are sailing too close to the wind and getting borderline personal. So please take a minute before you hit submit to ensure that your post won't fall foul of the rules. We'll have no hesitation in issuing cards and/or threadbans to posters who fail to heed this warning.

Please report any posts that you feel break the rules.

Any questions, please feel free to PM the mods.

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Gachla

BonnieSituation wrote: »

I've read the every page of this thread as you might have gathered. No debunking comes to mind.

Now, tell me about your "secret" solutions? Or are they gone the way of the "free stadium" nonsense from last night?

Selective readind then. I was right when I said you were trying to drag this down a rabbit hole.

Called it. Off to ignore with you. Slán.

gormdubhgorm

Gachla wrote: »

It is not a staggering increase they were UNDERACHIEVING for a start.
First they had to slowly return to the mean and start winning leinster that was the first stage - dominate the province like Kerry

Once confidence was gained there and the shock of the defeat to Kerry was overcome - Gilroy decided to tighten up the half back line.
Should not have lost to Cork in 2010 and stole the AI from Kerry in 2011 against the run of play.

Exceptional players Bernard/Alan Brogan forged in a GAA household made the difference.
Players with pure heart and drive like Keaney/Cullen made the difference.
Astute management and learning from mistakes Pilar and Gilroy made the difference.

Then the real cherry on top was the truly exceptional crop of players from that u12 game Dublin North v Dublin South way back in 2005
.

Other counties have regressed - Dublin looked at underage for a change FIRST u21 2003 EVER.
Led by the exceptional Alan Brogan.

Dublin should ALWAYS have been not only winning Leinsters but all-irelands too at least on a rate Kerry do.
The exceptional lads at underage are the reason along with astute management - top to bottom
Dublin are only NOW ONLY REALLY over-achieving for the first time in thier history - going for a five in a row.

In reality they should be be winning 2-3 a decade but they were run like a joke - before
Dublin did not even compete at U21 level for decades and thier most recent minor was 1984 for ages.
Everything was haphazard amateur a shambles - like the way Offaly are now not fulfilling potential.
Except Dublin still had those 1970's notions which weighed heavy on them throughout the 80's when they underachieved - Kerry - Offaly.
Then there was the underestimation of the Ulster sides. One bright spark 95. Should never have lost 92, 93 in particular.

No structure it died - O'Neill gone - players unwilling to change for Mickey Whelan.
Average Carr of the 00's with an average team bar Brogan and a few others.
They could not even win leinster from 96-04 because of a strong Meath side and the Micko/Paidi factor.

Now when Dublin finally overachieve for ONCE in thier history some want to piss all over it.
No praise of an exceptional group of players and management - just jealously and bitterness as former traditional great sides are now shadows - Meath. Galway, Cork, Kildare.

But Dublin are a good target to deflect thier failings - regurgitating phases from fading hacks - 'financial doping'.
Such people are not sports fans who do not appreciate a great team - they just want to find away to belittle others success.
They are mean spirited by nature and are not true GAA people.

BonnieSituation

Gachla wrote: »

Selective readind then. I was right when I said you were trying to drag this down a rabbit hole.

Called it. Off to ignore with you. Slán.

Shame. You were contributing so much.

Black charlie

When I state salary caps it was quiet obvious I meant player payments.
I know of a certain true blue dub who was of to USA and 30 k was the price
You would want to be very naive or untruthful to think the dubs are not pay for play.
Professionals don’t play for free

yermanhimself

One man who has been behind the success and development of Dublin at all levels and never gets a mention is John Costelloe as County Secretary who is one of the best administrators in the game.

BonnieSituation

Black charlie wrote: »

When I state salary caps it was quiet obvious I meant player payments.
I know of a certain true blue dub who was of to USA and 30 k was the price
You would want to be very naive or untruthful to think the dubs are not pay for play.
Professionals don’t play for free

And I'm sure with your 5th post on boards that you have evidence of Dublin "getting paid".

The again we had someone claim that they "don't have real jobs" and are "shamateurs".

Ridiculous.

Gachla

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

It is not a staggering increase they were UNDERACHIEVING for a start.

It is staggering. Dublin have gone for not winning All Ireland's in ladies football, u20/21 football to winning multiple titles. Same staggering improvements at club level. Their hurlers have improved beyond recognition. All across the baord there's been a huge increase in the number of titles. 80 titles in 14 years is staggering, you are attempting to deny cold, hard facts.

Strumms

They are all either studying or working.. there are no full time players on the panel, sorry. &#55357;&#56842;

bennyl10

ClanofLams wrote: »

I am referring to the funding for coaching and development, as seen below. Is there any justification for that ridiculous level of financial disparity?

https://twitter.com/seanmcgoldrick1/status/1093268753725431808?s=21

This. No one is denying the Dubs are supremely talented , but this is as close to Financial Doping as you’ll ever see, and it’s blatant!

Central pot, split it evenly, and then if the Dubs keep it up(as they probably would) no problem.

With these figures an asterisk will remain and Dub fans can do all the sand burying/fingers in ears they wish

FatherTed

So I'm an outsider looking in and honestly not well versed on the this situation. I see the non-Dubliners saying Dublin got a huge amount of money and it's unfair but Dubliners are saying their success is through hard work and volunteerism. Correct?

Gachla

yermanhimself wrote: »

One man who has been behind the success and development of Dublin at all levels and never gets a mention is John Costelloe as County Secretary who is one of the best administrators in the game.

The strategic program manager, regional developoment manager, high pefromance manager etc etc also deserve great credit. I wonder are they all volunteers?

BarryD2

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Then the real cherry on top was the truly exceptional crop of players from that u12 game Dublin North v Dublin South way back in 2005

And maybe that's the future - Dublin North and Dublin South, a natural rivalry. Or the four local authorities/ county councils that run Dublin County.

Black charlie

BonnieSituation wrote: »

And I'm sure with your 5th post on boards that you have evidence of Dublin "getting paid".

The again we had someone claim that they "don't have real jobs" and are "shamateurs".

Ridiculous.

I do as I myself played in Chicago for money 10 year ago now. Money was always higher for the footballers though.
30 k seems high but the game in Chicago at least would see very serious betting on teams.

Now in all fairness I didn’t have my county board spend a few bob on ensuring I did not find myself doing porridge. Does they count as a salary bik?

tikkahunter

Gachla wrote: »

We're back to this absolute disgusting allegation that every counties volunteers are lazy and useless apart from Dublin's. That's bollox. Every club and county have hard working and dedicated volunteers. Thousands across the country give up their free time.
Dublin GAA appointed highly paid officials to oversee a plan that was implemented by professional coaches to get their act together. It has cost millions. GDO's who have been involved from the start say that the difference between the standard then and after is staggering, they say that the professional coaches have played a huge part. Like I asked another poster, are you calling them liars?

Woa Woa back up the horse . Nobody said that any volunteers from any county where lazy in fact they probably have twice as much traveling to do to get to training ,matches etc . So don’t twist what I said . The problem is they are probably doing their best but all pulling different directions thinking their way is the best way forward . Dublin obviously took the decision to work smarter not harder so pulled everyone in line with a proper structure and that should be the benchmark now for other counties to follow . Do you seriously think if your county board went looking for funding for game development that they would be refused it ? If Cillian O Connor wasn’t such a bottle job then this discussion would not even be happening.

yermanhimself

Gachla wrote: »

The strategic program manager, regional developoment manager, high pefromance manager etc etc also deserve great credit. I wonder are they all volunteers?

Probably performance related KPIs

salmocab

bennyl10 wrote: »

This. No one is denying the Dubs are supremely talented , but this is as close to Financial Doping as you’ll ever see, and it’s blatant!

Central pot, split it evenly, and then if the Dubs keep it up(as they probably would) no problem.

With these figures an asterisk will remain and Dub fans can do all the sand burying/fingers in ears they wish

Splitting money evenly is a terrible way to split it, money is finite and should be targeted where it can do the best work.

gormdubhgorm

BarryD2 wrote: »

And maybe that's the future - Dublin North and Dublin South, a natural rivalry. Or the four local authorities/ county councils that run Dublin County.

Maybe - but the entirety of the GAA will have to revamped then amalgamations proportional counties - depending on participation rates - difficult to do
Putting in new structures etc much harder than resolving Brexit!

Gachla

tikkahunter wrote: »

Woa Woa back up the horse . Nobody said that any volunteers from any county where lazy in fact they probably have twice as much traveling to do to get to training ,matches etc . So don’t twist what I said . The problem is they are probably doing their best but all pulling different directions thinking their way is the best way forward . Dublin obviously took the decision to work smarter not harder so pulled everyone in line with a proper structure and that should be the benchmark now for other counties to follow . Do you seriously think if your county board went looking for funding for game development that they would be refused it ? If Cillian O Connor wasn’t such a bottle job then this discussion would not even be happening.

The "proper structure" you refer to in your post cost millions of euros. Dublin have won more than 80 titles across the board since 2005. This isn't a senior men's footballers issue only.

gormdubhgorm

FatherTed wrote: »

So I'm an outsider looking in and honestly not well versed on the this situation. I see the non-Dubliners saying Dublin got a huge amount of money and it's unfair but Dubliners are saying their success is through hard work and volunteerism. Correct?

And an exceptional group of players, chairmen and management.
Funding helped but they love to ignore the former.
Also they ignore the fact that other counties failings have led to Dublin's dominance.
No mention of the mistakes other counties made on this thread I noticed.

odyssey06

Black charlie wrote: »

I do as I myself played in Chicago for money 10 year ago now. Money was always higher for the footballers though.
30 k seems high but the game in Chicago at least would see very serious betting on teams.
Now in all fairness I didn’t have my county board spend a few bob on ensuring I did not find myself doing porridge. Does they count as a salary bik?

I think you should contact Revenue commisioners. Or maybe the IRS. Or just go straight to the Donald.

But this has nothing to do with Dublins dominance... unless theres dozens of Dublin players playing there and no other county players get paid.

ClanofLams

salmocab wrote: »

Splitting money evenly is a terrible way to split it, money is finite and should be targeted where it can do the best work.

No-one is suggesting splitting it evenly per county but at the same time Dublin receiving thirteen times what Cork receive cannot be justified.

Even the GAA has belatedly recognised it is a problem.

Happyilylost

tikkahunter wrote: »

Woa Woa back up the horse . Nobody said that any volunteers from any county where lazy in fact they probably have twice as much traveling to do to get to training ,matches etc . So don’t twist what I said . The problem is they are probably doing their best but all pulling different directions thinking their way is the best way forward . Dublin obviously took the decision to work smarter not harder so pulled everyone in line with a proper structure and that should be the benchmark now for other counties to follow . Do you seriously think if your county board went looking for funding for game development that they would be refused it ? If Cillian O Connor wasn’t such a bottle job then this discussion would not even be happening.

I wonder if bottle job O Connor was kicking into the bacon factory end in Castlebar and been afforded the same luxury as Cluxton and Rock would he be a hero or a still a bottle job? In relation to money my club was refused a grant from Croke Park two years running. We got it on the third try. And got two other grants the same year!

Gachla

yermanhimself wrote: »

Probably performance related KPIs

Of course credit must be handed to the late John Bailey also. He went to Bertie looking for the money in the first place.

tikkahunter

bruschi wrote: »

Does your club have a GDO/GPO attached to it?

Yes it also has 4000 members

salmocab

ClanofLams wrote: »

No-one is suggesting splitting it evenly per county but at the same time Dublin receiving thirteen times what Cork receive cannot be justified.

Even the GAA has belatedly recognised it is a problem.

Splitting it evenly is exactly what the poster I responded to suggested.

Always_Running

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Gachla

salmocab wrote: »

Splitting it evenly is exactly what the poster I responded to suggested.

It was basically split evenly amongst 31 counties. Not a lot in it between what the county who got 2nd most and the county who got the least. There was just one county way out of line with the rest.

Hammer Archer

tikkahunter wrote: »

Because they got their act together and set out a plan from grass roots up . I’m involved with my clubs nursery , we have a set of drills and stations that are rotating every 4 weeks . Girls and boys from 5-7 some cases 4 years old learn to kick , hand pass , throw and catch and use a hurl through games that they enjoy - no matches take place just games that bring on their hand to eye co ordination and physical development. So from September through to finishing up in June the majority can can kick with both feet and pass with both hands and that does not cost a penny and it’s the same through all age groups in the club , a plan is set out and it is stuck to and no mentor or coach gets a penny for it . It’s a handy excuse to just say it’s money that has brought success but go down to any Dublin club and watch the dedicated players, mentors and coaches who do it for the love of the game and sacrifice earnings and free time for it and tell them they are only successful through funding - it’s a bollox excuse for their own counties lack of groundwork.

With all due respect (and you're not the only one who has come up with something similar), go down to any club outside of the capital and you'll see the exact same thing. Players, coaches and mentors teaching kids the basics and giving up earnings and free time for the love of the game.
I don't really have an opinion on this whole topic, but a number of Dublin posters have tried to insinuate that dedicated volunteers in nurseries/underage teams is something that only happens in Dublin. And, to be honest, it shows a huge lack of knowledge of what happens in clubs outside of Dublin.

gormdubhgorm

Gachla wrote: »

It is staggering. Dublin have gone for not winning All Ireland's in ladies football, u20/21 football to winning multiple titles. Same staggering improvements at club level. Their hurlers have improved beyond recognition. All across the baord there's been a huge increase in the number of titles. 80 titles in 14 years is staggering, you are attempting to deny cold, hard facts.

Do you understand the phrase underachieving?
If you cannot understand that Dublin were underachieving - resources population management etc I can't help you.
Also a blue generation of players arrived sparked by the 2011 win with captured the imagination of Dubs - sure why wouldn't they want to emulate those lads?

Success breeds success it leads to hero's being born.
I already explained that Dublin used to do f**k all work at underage for decades.
The effort was not being put it.
So it now now appears that is staggering it's not.
It is like George Harrison when he was in the Beatles he was not allowed to flourish. After he left he was free wrote reams of songs - he was underachieving - when he was allowed to express himself in the right environment he REALLY flourished.

It is the same with Dublin players were ignored for years all those songs (players) went missing never to be heard.
Now Dublin are an orchestra playing a a symphony everyone knows thier job - their conductor is well respected.
But some people (begrudging fans) do not want to enjoy classical music, they are not ready for it yet. It takes time for those sort of people to mature. Some never will. I feel sorry for them. They are not true gaels.

bruschi

tikkahunter wrote: »

Yes it also has 4000 members

OK. That in one part answers the question. There is a full time employee who has the ability to set up these plans and guidelines. A GPO Is not employed to take over the role of volunteers, but to help enable them better management of a club. So your club is seeing the benefit of this, which is a good thing.

No other county and therefore club ever had this resource made available to them by the gaa until recently.

You also made a point that if counties made applications they wouldn't be turned down. They absolutely were. Many counties set up strategic plans and sought additional funding but were turned down. These weren't ad hoc plans on a fag box, but real long term coaching goals that needed investment in coaching staff.

The GPO initiative is being expanded in Wexford and I know first hand from clubs who have availed of it are finding huge positive impacts with it. This is a step to redress the imbalance caused by the gaa. But again, this still is not available everywhere and the gaa are not providing the service to all counties.