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The Dominance of Dublin GAA Mod warning post#1

seligehgit

Discussion of all matters relating to this contentious subject is welcome and the potential implications of same.This thread is solely for this purpose.

There appears to be a perception that the moderators are attempting to shut down discussion of this topic and direct same off to a low traffic stickied thread.Nothing could be further from the truth.Our sole motive was to confine discussion to a single thread and prevent cross thread posting which was adversely affecting the enjoyment of fellow posters.

Can we please keep posts civil and constructive in nature.

The Changes in the GAA-super thread is now for discussion of all other suggested reforms not relating to Dublin GAA.

Extra Mod Warning:
Right, a separate warning to both sides in this debate:
Firstly, any more mentioning of "financial doping" or any intimation that rules have been broken by Dublin or that Dublin have cheated are banned from now on. You can debate the issue of the funding that Dublin have received without resorting to that. There is zero evidence of it and posting about it will be considered trolling from here on in.

Secondly, this topic is, like it or not, a big talking point in gaelic football at the moment. You are more than welcome to argue your point, but posting in this thread to simply mock those on the other side or complaining about the topic is known as thread spoiling and is specifically banned in the charter (see point 8 here). No one is forcing you to click on this thread and no one is forcing you to post in it. If you don't like the topic, then don't post. It's as simple as that.

This thread is here so that all the discussion is in one place and it won't filter into other threads. This makes it easier to ignore for posters who don't really want to be involved in it. As a result, we haven't really been moderating it as severely as other threads. However, a number of posts recently from both sides are sailing too close to the wind and getting borderline personal. So please take a minute before you hit submit to ensure that your post won't fall foul of the rules. We'll have no hesitation in issuing cards and/or threadbans to posters who fail to heed this warning.

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The high horse brigade

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

You are correct I read it wrong bus eireann routes 52, 400 - got mangled in my head - like an eejit!

So there is no way that the attendances equate to Dublin so as they would be lucky to have 15k average most of the time in Castlebar?

I believe I read somewhere Mayo have 15k season ticket holders, I've no source for that figure though

bruschi

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

I was thinking is the simplest solution that the dublin coaches have to do a tour of other counties - past on expertise and knowledge to youngsters?

Let other coaches visit thier Dublin cul camps as well.
Or does all this stuff already happen?

Its not even a case of needing the Dublin coaches to show them how to do it, its more a case of providing the coaches who are able to do it long term. It's not rocket science, most of the full time GPO/GDA/GDO are third level qualified graduates in sports related fields with level 2 GAA coaching. As mentioned previously, the East Leinster project, goes some way to addressing this, but it is not widespread. Some details written about it here

https://www.irishnews.com/sport/gaafootball/2019/02/07/news/gaa-defends-urban-investment-as-it-offers-leinster-counties-50-50-coaching-model-1546051/

the Dublin coaching model wasnt devised and thought up of by Dublin County board, it was part of a GAA initiative and the set up and organisation of it is still run by and through the GAA head office, whether directly at Croke Park or Leinster council offices (or the various other provincial offices). It is a great initiative and is working well now in other clubs where it is in progress.

gormdubhgorm

The high horse brigade wrote: »

I believe I read somewhere Mayo have 15k season ticket holders, I've no source for that figure though

That would sound about right considering the size of the ground.
I would love to know what the split was in the Dublin v Mayo game - it seemed like Mayo outnumbered the Dubs - they were everywhere.

I would say there is no notion that Mayo's attendance will outnumber Dublin over the season though.

Most of Dublin's games were at least 30k-40k barring the freak 17k game v Galway - (I though I got the time wrong there was little activity that day)

So I would say Dublin's attendance would be pushing double Mayo's over the year.
Still very impressive from Mayo considering the population difference.

MayoAreMagic

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

They are an exceptional core group of players - if those Dublin u12 players (2005) were moved to Mayo (and did not emigrate) Mayo would have a few all-ireland's won
Surely Mayo's coaching would not be that poor to 'ruin' them?
Or are you saying that Mayo GAA does not know how to coach players?

Moving them to mayo or anywhere else, doesnt change the fact that those players became the players they are today, due in no small part to the professional level of coaching they recieved throughout their youth. No other county can offer anywhere near that level of coaching, therefore they wouldnt have the same skillset if they were elsewhere. Saying they are simply an exceptional group of players, after this coaching has taken effect, doesnt prove what you seem to think it does - quite the opposite in fact.

It is even very obvious in the dublin setup itself, where the younger guys can tackle well, can use both feet well etc, whereas older players that were on the scene, like mcauley or bastick when he was there, or ger brennan were far less technical. Even alan brogan who was a top player, was far more reliant on his stronger foot than guys like scully or howard, who would be considered workhorses in the current team.

Dots1982

Dublin are all powerful largely because of their population. Between 1990 and 2015 their population increase outstripped the entire present populations of big counties like Kildare and Meath.

Anyone who thinks cutting the funding will stop Dublin isn’t properly understanding the issue.

The current inter county competition structure is doomed. The drawn out debates here about funding are largely pointless.

ToBeFrank123

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

These are rough estimates based on memory, but will look for exact stats later.

Donegal v Mayo 25k
Kerry v Mayo 30k
Meath v Mayo double header but probably 15k Mayo and 10k Meath fans. Hard to know with double headers. So guessing 25k
Galway v Mayo 20k
Armagh v Mayo 10k
Down v Mayo 8k
Dublin v Mayo 82k
Roscommon v Mayo 20k
Mayo v NY 10k

Rough total = 230,000 attended Mayo games during the championship. So anyone who says Mayo are being subsidised etc are talking nonsense.

In 2017 with the replay with Kerry, it was probably as high. Also 2016 and 2015 with the Dublin replays.

My figures were slightly underestimated for Mayo.

Mayo v Armagh 18,500k
Mayo v Donegal 27k
Mayo v Kerry 31k
Mayo v Galway 19k
Mayo v Roscommon 20,500
Mayo v Dublin 82,500
Mayo v Down - can't find this but I think it was about 8k
Mayo v Meath - approx 25k
Mayo v NY - I think 10k

So roughly 240k in total.

They get about 45,000 in gdf per year. That's the grand total of 20 cents per person attending a Mayo game.

And you wonder how Mayo struggle to compete?

gormdubhgorm

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

It is even very obvious in the dublin setup itself, where the younger guys can tackle well, can use both feet well etc, whereas older players that were on the scene, like mcauley or bastick when he was there, or ger brennan were far less technical. Even alan brogan who was a top player, was far more reliant on his stronger foot than guys like scully or howard, who would be considered workhorses in the current team.

Would ya look at the players ya picked - not an Eoghan O'Gara in sight!

Bastic was never going to be a skillful player he would always have been a destroyer a fella who breaks tackles - breaks up play

McCauley is an unusual case his background was basketball - Ireland u19 and came to GAA late.
That is why he looks unorthodox and awkward at times.

Ger Brennan was a tiger of a player that was his style - never lost the ball much as far as I can remember - so you could argue he was under-rated technically.

If you are basing success on the amount of coaches how come Ireland have not succeeded in the soccer with thier Dutch imported coaches over a decade ago?

http://www.dutch-football.com/football/ireland/fai_wim_koevermans.shtml

https://www.fai.ie/ireland/news/ruud-dokter-appointed-high-performance-director

They still lamp the ball as far as they can - you cannot make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.

There has to be talent there to begin with.

StupidLikeAFox

kilns wrote: »

I think this thread could go on and on forever as guys like tobefrank123 will never acknowledge anything reasonably good came could ever come out of Dublin

You said earlier:

So many things are cyclical and this is an example, Dublin benefitted from a perfect storm, an amazing group of players, a fantastic manager who facilitated them and the standards of other counties dropping.

All this may be true, can you yourself acknowledge the fact that Dublin also got significantly more help than any other county from the GAA, in terms of help with setting up professional structures and a bucket load of cash to fund those structures, or is that not considered part of the "perfect storm"?

blanch152

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

Moving them to mayo or anywhere else, doesnt change the fact that those players became the players they are today, due in no small part to the professional level of coaching they recieved throughout their youth. No other county can offer anywhere near that level of coaching, therefore they wouldnt have the same skillset if they were elsewhere. Saying they are simply an exceptional group of players, after this coaching has taken effect, doesnt prove what you seem to think it does - quite the opposite in fact.

It is even very obvious in the dublin setup itself, where the younger guys can tackle well, can use both feet well etc, whereas older players that were on the scene, like mcauley or bastick when he was there, or ger brennan were far less technical. Even alan brogan who was a top player, was far more reliant on his stronger foot than guys like scully or howard, who would be considered workhorses in the current team.

Teaching seven-year olds in primary school to use both feet is not rocket science.

blanch152

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

My figures were slightly underestimated for Mayo.

Mayo v Armagh 18,500k
Mayo v Donegal 27k
Mayo v Kerry 31k
Mayo v Galway 19k
Mayo v Roscommon 20,500
Mayo v Dublin 82,500
Mayo v Down - can't find this but I think it was about 8k
Mayo v Meath - approx 25k
Mayo v NY - I think 10k

So roughly 240k in total.

They get about 45,000 in gdf per year. That's the grand total of 20 cents per person attending a Mayo game.

And you wonder how Mayo struggle to compete?

Always the focus on the Championship, not even the League, let alone the club scene.

Too many Mayo fans have a singular focus on their senior team's Championship performance to the exclusion of everything else.

Gachla

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

If you are basing success on the amount of coaches how come Ireland have not succeeded in the soccer with thier Dutch imported coaches over a decade ago?

http://www.dutch-football.com/football/ireland/fai_wim_koevermans.shtml

https://www.fai.ie/ireland/news/ruud-dokter-appointed-high-performance-director

They still lamp the ball as far as they can - you cannot make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.

There has to be talent there to begin with.

If Ireland were the only one's with huge numbers of professional coaches while every other country had very little, then you would see us make big inroads and then you would be making a fair comparison.

Gachla

blanch152 wrote: »

Teaching seven-year olds in primary school to use both feet is not rocket science.

Having professional coaches available makes it much easier.

ToBeFrank123

blanch152 wrote: »

Always the focus on the Championship, not even the League, let alone the club scene.

Too many Mayo fans have a singular focus on their senior team's Championship performance to the exclusion of everything else.

Mayo's attendances are decent in both the league and the club championship.

Probably not as high as Dublins, but pretty respectable for the league.

Want to bring in the FBD League too?

The point is, Mayo bring big crowds and their reward is piss poor gdf and games stuck behind a paywall.

The GAA need Mayo to be strong and rival the big teams. The GAA are clueless about this hence the GAA led death spiral. Doing nothing to help teams create rivalries. This is the main outcome of funding imbalances - the end of close rivalries.

gormdubhgorm

StupidLikeAFox wrote: »

You said earlier:

All this may be true, can you yourself acknowledge the fact that Dublin also got significantly more help than any other county from the GAA, in terms of help with setting up professional structures and a bucket load of cash to fund those structures, or is that not considered part of the "perfect storm"?

I agree with you there if Dublin had the same funding and lesser players/management structure to chose from - you would ironically hear less about the funding. As they would be less successful.

But as the players/management structure are top notch and really successful they are not praised and the funding becomes the focus!

That dichotomy amuses me no end.

But you mix funding with top notch players and management - the others are really playing catch up especially if they do not have thier own house in order.

All three of these can change for Dubin -

1) Dublin given less funding gradually

2) Dublin getting a head the ball manager who falls out with players

3) Players who are not that goof=d/players who fall out with management

Funding issue should be easily sorted, when Gavin steps down Dubs fans will be worried, when the old guard of players go Dubs fans will be worried.

bruschi

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

Moving them to mayo or anywhere else, doesnt change the fact that those players became the players they are today, due in no small part to the professional level of coaching they recieved throughout their youth. No other county can offer anywhere near that level of coaching, therefore they wouldnt have the same skillset if they were elsewhere. Saying they are simply an exceptional group of players, after this coaching has taken effect, doesnt prove what you seem to think it does - quite the opposite in fact.

It is even very obvious in the dublin setup itself, where the younger guys can tackle well, can use both feet well etc, whereas older players that were on the scene, like mcauley or bastick when he was there, or ger brennan were far less technical. Even alan brogan who was a top player, was far more reliant on his stronger foot than guys like scully or howard, who would be considered workhorses in the current team.

actually just reading that about Alan Brogan is ridiculous. Brogan was absolutely superb off his left foot. Watch any highlight reel of him and you'll see as many scores off his left as his right. He was a fantastic 2 footed player. Brogan was a minor in 2000 and was an excellent player then at club, schools and county level then making his senior debut in 2002. Scully and Howard are far more than "workhorses" too.

There is a point where you can accept that there has been excellent financing of Dublin coaching or any other advantages to have, but there is also an acceptance to be made that there are and have been some fantastic players who have played with them too.

gormdubhgorm

Gachla wrote: »

If Ireland were the only one's with huge numbers of professional coaches while every other country had very little, then you would see us make big inroads and then you would be making a fair comparison.

OK well Iceland managed to do it on a European stage in soccer.
Population Iceland 357,100 v England 55 million. (15 times the pop difference)

What would they be the equivalent inter-country in Ireland
- Westmeath v Dublin (15 times the pop difference)

It can be done if there is a proper plan and proper management

gormdubhgorm

bruschi wrote: »

actually just reading that about Alan Brogan is ridiculous. Brogan was absolutely superb off his left foot. Watch any highlight reel of him and you'll see as many scores off his left as his right. He was a fantastic 2 footed player. Brogan was a minor in 2000 and was an excellent player then at club, schools and county level then making his senior debut in 2002. Scully and Howard are far more than "workhorses" too.

There is a point where you can accept that there has been excellent financing of Dublin coaching or any other advantages to have, but there is also an acceptance to be made that there are and have been some fantastic players who have played with them too.

Yeah Alan was one of first new breed of 'head up' Dublin footballers.
They were really rare for Dublin dependant on the auld lads - Farreller and Jayo before him.

I remember the Kerry pundits used to say Dublin did not produced 'footballers' - you couldn't really argue with them then.

MayoAreMagic

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Would ya look at the players ya picked - not an Eoghan O'Gara in sight!

Bastic was never going to be a skillful player he would always have been a destroyer a fella who breaks tackles - breaks up play

McCauley is an unusual case his background was basketball - Ireland u19 and came to GAA late.
That is why he looks unorthodox and awkward at times.

Ger Brennan was a tiger of a player that was his style - never lost the ball much as far as I can remember - so you could argue he was under-rated technically.

If you are basing success on the amount of coaches how come Ireland have not succeeded in the soccer with thier Dutch imported coaches over a decade ago?

http://www.dutch-football.com/football/ireland/fai_wim_koevermans.shtml

https://www.fai.ie/ireland/news/ruud-dokter-appointed-high-performance-director

They still lamp the ball as far as they can - you cannot make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.

There has to be talent there to begin with.

Ogara another example yes. I know the skills of the other players, you dont have to describe them...
My point is, without the coaching these guys have unquestionably improved with, someone like fenton is probably a bit more like bastick, skillwise. Maybe still superior, but Im sure you get the logic.
Mccauley didnt get the coaching and you can tell - that is the relative point here, what he was doing besides doesnt matter.

Re ireland soccer, no real investment, a basketcase association etc. you know as well as I do there are seriously debilitating factors at play there. Also, 2 coaches arent going to do much for a national team. How many in dublin again?
Not that it matters here - they are two completely different cases...

Father Hernandez

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

OK well Iceland managed to do it on a European stage in soccer.
Population Iceland 357,100 v England 55 million. (15 times the pop difference)

What would they be the equivalent inter-country in Ireland
- Westmeath v Dublin (15 times the pop difference)

It can be done if there is a proper plan and proper management

Exactly. You could say the same with China vs Germany in footballing terms.

Population has no bearing.

Gachla

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

OK well Iceland managed to do it on a European stage in soccer.
Population Iceland 357,100 v England 55 million. (15 times the pop difference)

What would they be the equivalent inter-country in Ireland
- Westmeath v Dublin (15 times the pop difference)

It can be done if there is a proper plan and proper management

Westmeath beat Dublin in 2004. It could be done before things changed for Dublin. Dublin already had the population advantage, they then were handed a huge financial advantage. When you think about it it's absolutely bonkers!

MayoAreMagic

bruschi wrote: »

actually just reading that about Alan Brogan is ridiculous. Brogan was absolutely superb off his left foot. Watch any highlight reel of him and you'll see as many scores off his left as his right. He was a fantastic 2 footed player. Brogan was a minor in 2000 and was an excellent player then at club, schools and county level then making his senior debut in 2002. Scully and Howard are far more than "workhorses" too.

There is a point where you can accept that there has been excellent financing of Dublin coaching or any other advantages to have, but there is also an acceptance to be made that there are and have been some fantastic players who have played with them too.

Im sure he has kicked points with his weaker foot. My point is he very obviously had a weaker foot. Similarly, a guy like mark vaughan although considered technical was quite a one sided player compared to todays players. That isnt obvious with dublins elite players now. Scully and howard are top players but they are doing workhorse roles for Dublin, such is the level of their other players. My point is even the guys in those roles are more two footed than the likes of alan brogan before them, who was the star of the show in his time. Obviously we can take from that that the technical level has increased exponentially. This comes down to coaching.

snotboogie

Dots1982 wrote: »

Dublin are all powerful largely because of their population. Between 1990 and 2015 their population increase outstripped the entire present populations of big counties like Kildare and Meath.

Anyone who thinks cutting the funding will stop Dublin isn’t properly understanding the issue.

The current inter county competition structure is doomed. The drawn out debates here about funding are largely pointless.

Cork enjoys a similar population advantage in Hurling, well over double the population of the next county who takes the sport seriously (Galway) and three to five times the population of the rest of their rivals (Limerick, Tipp, Clare, Kilkenny, Waterford), between 1991 and 2016 the population increase in Cork is larger than the current populations of Clare, Waterford and Kilkenny yet they can't even win a title, never mind dominate.

odyssey06

Dots1982 wrote: »

Dublin are all powerful largely because of their population. Between 1990 and 2015 their population increase outstripped the entire present populations of big counties like Kildare and Meath.

Yeah but that increase is mostly accounted for by non-GAA species Dubs... it's country folk, foreigners and southside rugby heads.

But if we can integrate the country folk's cultural and genetic DNA for GAA skills, i.e. shanghai their offspring into Dublin jerseys, then it'll be a Dublin double in both All Irelands forever.

* this post is only half serious

gormdubhgorm

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

Ogara another example yes. I know the skills of the other players, you dont have to describe them...
My point is, without the coaching these guys have unquestionably improved with, someone like fenton is probably a bit more like bastick, skillwise. Maybe still superior, but Im sure you get the logic.
Mccauley didnt get the coaching and you can tell - that is the relative point here, what he was doing besides doesnt matter.

Re ireland soccer, no real investment, a basketcase association etc. you know as well as I do there are seriously debilitating factors at play there. Also, 2 coaches arent going to do much for a national team. How many in dublin again?
Not that it matters here - they are two completely different cases...

I don't see Bastic being like Fenton with any amount of training.
Do you see how fast Fenton is for a start - much lighter on his feet, Bastic not the same type of player at all never will be.

The point is often made about McCauley who is probably the most relevant to your argument - that because he is unorthodox he is more likely to cause trouble for backs.
You could argue he would not be as good with training.

Plus have you noticed that the silky skills of Bernard Brogan (played great in Omagh) was dropped completely for EOG on the bench v Mayo the last day?

The only logical reason is that Gavin wanted an awkward lump on the bench v Mayo not a Brogan type player.

Plus you should have mentioned Jack McCaffery, He used to do a lot of weight training - but tailed it back because he felt it was slowing him down.

If you look at Vinny Murohy his game suffered because of too much bulk - was far better lighter less muscle.

What Dublin do is tailor training individually to players strengths like Jack Mc.
There is no point in trying to get the likes of Bastic to do skills training not his strength.
I assume other counties have cottoned on to this and it is not a 'one size fits all' training that you seem to advocate?

gormdubhgorm

Gachla wrote: »

Westmeath beat Dublin in 2004. It could be done before things changed for Dublin. Dublin already had the population advantage, they then were handed a huge financial advantage. When you think about it it's absolutely bonkers!

I agree if anything the money should have been lashed out to Westmeath when they were on that high, Laois, Offaly, and Kildare as well when they had thier runs in the 00's
All four to greater/lesser have suffered since.
Easy saying it in hindsight now though.

MayoAreMagic

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

OK well Iceland managed to do it on a European stage in soccer.
Population Iceland 357,100 v England 55 million. (15 times the pop difference)

What would they be the equivalent inter-country in Ireland
- Westmeath v Dublin (15 times the pop difference)

It can be done if there is a proper plan and proper management

Sorry but this is trying to take the exception and treat it as the rule.
This result was seen as a total shock, i.e. only a couple of times in a lifetime.
Are you trying to suggest that dublins nearest rivals should wait around to see Dublin lose 2-3 times in their lifetime and be happy with that?
If that is the case, why did dublin need investment in the first place? Couldnt they just be happy to get an odd win against the odds also?

Duffy the Vampire Slayer

Arguing that population has no bearing, and using international soccer as an example, is ridiculous. It's been well-documented that both population and money make a huge difference in that field, assuming that soccer is actually popular in the countries in question.

gormdubhgorm

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

Sorry but this is trying to take the exception and treat it as the rule.
This result was seen as a total shock, i.e. only a couple of times in a lifetime.
Are you trying to suggest that dublins nearest rivals should wait around to see Dublin lose 2-3 times in their lifetime and be happy with that?
If that is the case, why did dublin need investment in the first place? Couldnt they just be happy to get an odd win against the odds also?

It wasn't just a once off Iceland did it again in subsequent games.

This is how they did set up the plan - it was not an overnight success.

Some intercounty teams have no excuses in Ireland

Scoundrel

It's very simple really why Dublin are dominating they have a multi million euro senior set up and the others don't it's not like Dublin are dominating underage Kildare have won the 4 of the last 7 Leinster minors Meath have won 1 and Dublin 2 Kildare won the U20 all Ireland last year, beating Dublin out the gate in the process talent and hard work aren't the difference it's the money available in their respective senior set ups. The fact that the GAA the authorities actually running the sport have helped fund this inequality is mind boggling if it were in any other sport it would be called corruption imagine if the IRFU funded Leinster more than the rest put together or the FAI funded Shamrock Rovers more than the rest put together there'd be uproar but in the GAA it's fine.

snotboogie

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

Sorry but this is trying to take the exception and treat it as the rule.
This result was seen as a total shock, i.e. only a couple of times in a lifetime.
Are you trying to suggest that dublins nearest rivals should wait around to see Dublin lose 2-3 times in their lifetime and be happy with that?
If that is the case, why did dublin need investment in the first place? Couldnt they just be happy to get an odd win against the odds also?

Once you reach a certain critical mass you can compete, plenty of countries with under 10 million can consistently compete with nations with around 100 million. The issue in GAA is that the counties with the critical mass to compete with Dublin either have a huge portion of their population who won't play GAA (Antrim, Down and Derry) or where football is a minority sport (Cork, Galway and Limerick). Kildade and Meath should provide some hope going forward.