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The Dominance of Dublin GAA Mod warning post#1

seligehgit

Discussion of all matters relating to this contentious subject is welcome and the potential implications of same.This thread is solely for this purpose.

There appears to be a perception that the moderators are attempting to shut down discussion of this topic and direct same off to a low traffic stickied thread.Nothing could be further from the truth.Our sole motive was to confine discussion to a single thread and prevent cross thread posting which was adversely affecting the enjoyment of fellow posters.

Can we please keep posts civil and constructive in nature.

The Changes in the GAA-super thread is now for discussion of all other suggested reforms not relating to Dublin GAA.

Extra Mod Warning:
Right, a separate warning to both sides in this debate:
Firstly, any more mentioning of "financial doping" or any intimation that rules have been broken by Dublin or that Dublin have cheated are banned from now on. You can debate the issue of the funding that Dublin have received without resorting to that. There is zero evidence of it and posting about it will be considered trolling from here on in.

Secondly, this topic is, like it or not, a big talking point in gaelic football at the moment. You are more than welcome to argue your point, but posting in this thread to simply mock those on the other side or complaining about the topic is known as thread spoiling and is specifically banned in the charter (see point 8 here). No one is forcing you to click on this thread and no one is forcing you to post in it. If you don't like the topic, then don't post. It's as simple as that.

This thread is here so that all the discussion is in one place and it won't filter into other threads. This makes it easier to ignore for posters who don't really want to be involved in it. As a result, we haven't really been moderating it as severely as other threads. However, a number of posts recently from both sides are sailing too close to the wind and getting borderline personal. So please take a minute before you hit submit to ensure that your post won't fall foul of the rules. We'll have no hesitation in issuing cards and/or threadbans to posters who fail to heed this warning.

Please report any posts that you feel break the rules.

Any questions, please feel free to PM the mods.

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Black charlie

ClanofLams wrote: »

They hadn’t won a Leinster title in fifty years and 1990 aside hadn’t even come close.

They had one Leinster club hurling title go to a Dublin club since 1970, no All Irelands.

This decade they have won a Leinster intercounty title, get Cunningham aside are very competitive against the best teams in the country and had a club win back to back All Irelands, albeit one with a few immigrants.

Saying Dublin hurling has not been transformed since funding massively jumped is really head in the sand stuff.

I agree and hurling is a very skillful game and so the jump in performance has been overall excellent.
Also they drove tipp and Kilkenny close in early part of the decade. Two teams that included some of the best players to ever play.

Gachla

It's not just the Dublin senior footballers though is it? If it was just them it could be explained away, it's women's football, men's hurling, club football and hurling, underage, basically, Dublin GAA has improved in all areas. This has happened at the same time that Dublin got a huge increase in funding. It can't be just a coincidence? I saw this table on another website, it's not very pretty but it shows the big improvements in Dublin GAA.

odyssey06

Black charlie wrote: »

I do not see any change in Dublin dominance. I would break Dublin into 2 for now and divide clubs fairly
I think this could suit everyone including the dubs as there would probably be an all dub final almost immediately.

That final would be a killer for interest in football.

[Deleted User]

Dominance in sport is not rare. A great team always dominates for a spell. Nobody ever sees it ending, but it always does.

This is no different.

odyssey06

Gachla wrote: »

It's not just the Dublin senior footballers though is it? If it was just them it could be explained away, it's women's football, men's hurling, club football and hurling, underage, basically, Dublin GAA has improved in all areas. This has happened at the same time that Dublin got a huge increase in funding. It can't be just a coincidence? I saw this table on another website, it's not very pretty but it shows the big improvements in Dublin

Of course it can be coincidence.
Or it can be down to Dublin gaa getting their act together.
Or it could be a bit of all three.

Donnielighto

Gachla wrote: »

It's not just the Dublin senior footballers though is it? If it was just them it could be explained away, it's women's football, men's hurling, club football and hurling, underage, basically, Dublin GAA has improved in all areas. This has happened at the same time that Dublin got a huge increase in funding. It can't be just a coincidence? I saw this table on another website, it's not very pretty but it shows the big improvements in Dublin GAA.

The title of the table will do nothing for you if you are trying to convince fans that are against you.

LeinsterDub

Black charlie wrote: »

Dublin footballl is very dominant due to money and population.
They are a complete professional setup
Because it is a complete professional set up underage success means very little
What matters is that young talent is identified and professionally managed into the senior set up.

There is no blaming Dublin football for what they have become - it is the natural progression of the game itself becoming more professional

I do not see any change in Dublin dominance. I would break Dublin into 2 for now and divide clubs fairly
I think this could suit everyone including the dubs as there would probably be an all dub final almost immediately.

And the Hurlers are a bunch of amateur yahoos?

odyssey06

ClanofLams wrote: »

They hadn’t won a Leinster title in fifty years and 1990 aside hadn’t even come close.
They had one Leinster club hurling title go to a Dublin club since 1970, no All Irelands.
This decade they have won a Leinster intercounty title, get Cunningham aside are very competitive against the best teams in the country and had a club win back to back All Irelands, albeit one with a few immigrants.
Saying Dublin hurling has not been transformed since funding massively jumped is really head in the sand stuff.

Hurling counties wax and wane. Look at Offaly. They have fallen away not just from Dublin but the rest. Their funding is comparable with all other counties except Dublin.

Given Dublins population there is nothing transformative about it.

Calltocall

It’s a shambles being honest, all credit to Dublin amazing team but at the rate they are going you could easily see ten in a row, effectively killing the game as a competition, it’s no longer exciting to watch the Dubs matches as the outcome is a foregone conclusion so neutrals just switch off, not sure of the solution to be honest.

Gachla

odyssey06 wrote: »

Of course it can be coincidence.
Or it can be down to Dublin gaa getting their act together.
Or it could be a bit of all three.

Dublin get an influx of professional coaches and suddenly standards start to rise across the board. The coaches are paid to improve standards. The connection can't be denied.

gormdubhgorm

Donnielighto wrote: »

The title of the table will do nothing for you if you are trying to convince fans that are against you.

Gachla wrote: »

It's not just the Dublin senior footballers though is it? If it was just them it could be explained away, it's women's football, men's hurling, club football and hurling, underage, basically, Dublin GAA has improved in all areas. This has happened at the same time that Dublin got a huge increase in funding. It can't be just a coincidence? I saw this table on another website, it's not very pretty but it shows the big improvements in Dublin GAA.

Plus why are the different columns in Mayo colours?

Also increase in funding does not equate to increase in success that is fallacy.

If that was the case China would dominate snooker - they do not (still have not won a world title despite the hype)
China would dominate soccer - they do not (What have they done in any World Cup?)
The Dublin hurlers were beaten by Laois this year!

Dublin's success is down to these things -

1) Shrewd management of finances (I would argue they are actually underfunded given the population size)

2) Implementation of a decent structure and plan

3) A core of fantastic players who happened to reach thier peak now - who were playing football underage long before any plan was conceived

4) Poor planning in other counties - Meath let thier youth structure whiter and die - no plan after Boylan for example

5) Other counties following fads that may not have suited thier team - defensive football etc - Kildare/Galway

6) Other counties showing lack of innovation

7) Fantastic Dublin management - it could easily fall apart if the wrong fella is in charge

Gachla

Donnielighto wrote: »

The title of the table will do nothing for you if you are trying to convince fans that are against you.

Not my table, ignore the heading, is the table correct?

jr86

ClanofLams wrote: »

They hadn’t won a Leinster title in fifty years and 1990 aside hadn’t even come close.

They had one Leinster club hurling title go to a Dublin club since 1970, no All Irelands.

This decade they have won a Leinster intercounty title, get Cunningham aside are very competitive against the best teams in the country and had a club win back to back All Irelands, albeit one with a few immigrants.

Saying Dublin hurling has not been transformed since funding massively jumped is really head in the sand stuff.

Yeah i imagine a lot of the younger posters in their teens/early 20s would have little or no recollection as to the level Dublin hurlers were actually at about 12/15 years ago and beyond. And this would skew their perception as to the actual improvement they have made

Its easily the biggest improvement seen in county hurling in my lifetime anyway. Its like expecting Antrim or Carlow nowadays to start competing with top sides regularly and beating them from time to time competitively, and to win a Leinster title and make an All Ireland semi in the 2020s

Donnielighto

Gachla wrote: »

Not my table, ignore the heading, is the table correct?

No idea, didn't put it together, I'd have to see the source data but I'd wager the creator is biased.

Gachla

Donnielighto wrote: »

No idea, didn't put it together, I'd have to see the source data but I'd wager the creator is biased.

So what if they're biased, the table can be easily checked out. If they are correct, the numbers are shocking!

ClanofLams

odyssey06 wrote: »

Hurling counties wax and wane. Look at Offaly. They have fallen away not just from Dublin but the rest. Their funding is comparable with all other counties except Dublin.

Given Dublins population there is nothing transformative about it.

It’s clearly transformative given the previous fifty years of results, two good years aside.

This has been by far and away the best decade for hurling in the last sixty years.

Coincidentally it’s also happening when their footballers are enjoying a period of dominance unparalleled in the history of Dublin football. Both of which are coincidentally happening after a dramatic increase in funding fifteen to twenty years ago.

You must be a big believer in coincidence.

RoyalCelt

Mantis Toboggan wrote: »

Play the all Ireland football Final somewhere other than in Dublin. Take the home advantage away. If the final was in Killarney I'd have it a 50/50.

Great idea. At the rate it's going I could see kerry or Cork demanding finals be played somewhere in Munster. The final would be reduced by 35k in attendance but if Dublin win it every year and get the lions share of funds I can see counties stop caring about the money.

Donnielighto

Gachla wrote: »

So what if they're biased, the table can be easily checked out. If they are correct, the numbers are shocking!

Either way the title needlessly antagonises which is the point I was raising.

odyssey06

jr86 wrote: »

Yeah i imagine a lot of the younger posters in their teens/early 20s would have little or no recollection as to the level Dublin hurlers were actually at about 12/15 years ago and beyond. And this would skew their perception as to the actual improvement they have made
Its easily the biggest improvement seen in county hurling in my lifetime anyway. Its like expecting Antrim or Carlow nowadays to start competing with top sides regularly and beating them from time to time competitively, and to win a Leinster title and make an All Ireland semi in the 2020s

I dont understand why if Offaly could join the top hurling teams in the 80s and 90s and fall away... Dublin cannot repeat the same feat in the 00s and 10s without eyebrows being raised.

Funding does not explain Offalys rise and fall. It is not necessarily needed to explain Dublins. Arguably given population size the outlier is not Dublins current level but their level in the 00s which was actually much poorer than that of the late 80s and early 90s.

Gachla

Donnielighto wrote: »

Either way the title needlessly antagonises which is the point I was raising.

It is a bit in fairness but the figures are obscene. I found another one, I think it's from the same person. Again, ignore the title.

ClanofLams

Donnielighto wrote: »

Either way the title needlessly antagonises which is the point I was raising.

Agreed but the poster clearly said he took it from elsewhere. The data looks right, just based on senior football and hurling results and u-21.

Donnielighto

odyssey06 wrote: »

I dont understand why if Offaly could join the top hurling teams in the 80s and 90s and fall away... Dublin cannot repeat the same feat in the 00s and 10s without eyebrows being raised.

Funding does not explain Offalys rise and fall. It is not necessarily needed to explain Dublins. Arguably given population size the outlier is not Dublins current level but their level in the 00s which was actually much poorer than that of the late 80s and early 90s.

Occam's Razor.

It is the simplest reason as to why it is Dublin as opposed to any other especially when parallel to the football and the right timeframe to be related to the funding.

RoyalCelt

Breaston Plants wrote: »

At the end of the day it's 15 v 15 on the pitch. It's up to others to catch up with them. Fair play to them, best team ever.

It's not though. Unless both teams decide not to use subs. In which case Dublin always have the superior impact in this regard.

Donnielighto

Gachla wrote: »

It is a bit in fairness but the figures are obscene. I found another one, I think it's from the same person. Again, ignore the title.

I've said early in the thread, first few posts a big bit about why I think Dublin as as good as they are. It's basically resources (playing numbers and money) better than any combined with planning and management better than most of not the best. The fruits are being seen in the quality of players.

odyssey06

ClanofLams wrote: »

It’s clearly transformative given the previous fifty years of results, two good years aside.
This has been by far and away the best decade for hurling in the last sixty years.
Coincidentally it’s also happening when their footballers are enjoying a period of dominance unparalleled in the history of Dublin football. Both of which are coincidentally happening after a dramatic increase in funding fifteen to twenty years ago.
You must be a big believer in coincidence.

I think Dublin GAA have got their act together and that comes through across the board to get Dublin playing to its potential.

I dont think funding is needed necessarily to explain it. There is no nationwide pattern in the funding table versus county results.

But even if it were true it would probably be a worthy goal of GAA funding to boost another competitive hurling county.

RoyalCelt

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Yep 2011 won it against the run of play v Kerry - Kerry pulled up were caught cold momentum shifted

2013 - Although Dublin controlled the game O'Connor's dilly dallying aided Dublin's win

2016 - was delighted with the draw Mayo should defo have won the first game stupid og's keeper mistakes

- in the second game Costello won it with his three points from the bench - thought Dublin deserved it

2017 - if O'connor had got his free instead of hitting the post could easily have been a draw

I honestly cannot see Dublin dominating in five years time.
The quality coming through is just not the same as Fenton, Mannion, McCarthy, Scully, Kilkenny will be in thier 30's - Cluxton will be gone, Rock will likely be gone 34

Nothing lasts forever and all great teams fade.

Well you have the best u20 attacker in the country to add in next year. That Archer lad is a machine. Dublin only need to add 2-3 players to the panel each year and before long another golden Dublin crop will arrive with 5 or 6 players. The numbers playing in the capital is growing, the support they get superior and don't forget you've got the best volunteers in the country!

I know you're still hurt from the days when you got beaten by counties a tenth of your size but those days won't be back. You'll be lucky to lose 1 knock out championship match in the next 10 years. You've only lost 1 in the last 6 and 2 in the last 8. Ridiculous. Young Dublin fans don't know the meaning of pain as a fan.

ClanofLams

odyssey06 wrote: »

I think Dublin GAA have got their act together and that comes through across the board to get Dublin playing to its potential.

I dont think funding is needed necessarily to explain it. There is no nationwide pattern in the funding table versus county results.

But even if it were true it would probably be a worthy goal of GAA funding to boost another competitive hurling county.

Of course the funding table won’t match results directly.

But when you take the biggest population in the country, pump money creating a massive disparity to the extent that it receiving almost thirteen times the funding received to the next biggest population when it only has two and a half times the population and when that county is also taking in massive commercial income which it is rightly re-investing, the outcomes are almost inevitable.

jr86

Dublin haven't even won 5 in a row yet (yes, yes, we all know how 3 weeks time will go!) and already their dominance is one of the biggest talking points online, around water coolers, on the radio etc. today

Goodness knows what it'll be like when they're potentially going for 8, maybe 9 even 10 in a row... or beyond!!

I'm at a loss as to how it can be addressed though. Extreme dominance will essentially kill the game at county level, so something will need to happen. Can't see them split into two. Semis outside Croke Park may be realistic, especially given yesterday's paltry attendance. No idea what else though.

A "Lions" series every summer where they play the pick of the rest of Ireland :pac: , one half hurling, one half football? :pac: capping the number of lads over 20 who are allowed to play

But who knows maybe they'll bring about their own downfall. A players' strike maybe in 7 years

? Maybe then their 3rd string team could be pipped in the final...

RoyalCelt

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Fancy having another go at why Dublin aren't dominating Hurling so? Given they've all the same advantages as the footballers?

Dublin footballers went from provincial winners/contenders and occasionally AI contender to utter dominance.

Dublin hurlers went from non leinster contenders to leinster/league champs/contenders. Considering how you did vs KK, galway and Wexford this year I'd put you as all Ireland contenders.

Don't forget that in the 00's you'd struggle to beat the likes of meath. That's why you're not easily winning AI's. Because you came from nowhere. Don't worry though it's only a matter of time.

odyssey06

Donnielighto wrote: »

Occam's Razor.
It is the simplest reason as to why it is Dublin as opposed to any other especially when parallel to the football and the right timeframe to be related to the funding.

Alongside occams razor we must attach the other stand by... Correlation is not necessarily causation. Oftentimes the simplest reason is right. Sometimes it is wrong and sometimes it is part of the equation but not the full picture.

If there is an input of development funding to results on the field it is a weak one, looking at the table for all counties.