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Dun Laoghaire Traffic & Commuting Chat

Fratton Fred

To avoid derailing other SCD threads, I thought I'd add a Dun Laoghaire thread.

My main query, is does anyone know what is going on outside the train station? It looks like they are putting a crossing in twenty metres from the crossroads. Surely not?

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coylemj

Stephen15 wrote: »

Showbox sized appartments, lack of privacy and the fact it's going to provide any solutionsfor the housing crisis ............

The only thing that will fix the housing crisis is an increase in supply, the more units that come on stream, the better.

You may not like the format of that new block but if there are people prepared to stump up the money and rent them, who are you to object?

Stephen15 wrote: »

.... my guess is it will be mostly filled with foreigners working in tech firms and not Irish families.

Is that a problem for you? Most of the 'foreigners working in tech firms' are singletons who pay a huge amount of tax and draw virtually no benefits (free education, medical cards, dole, childrens allowance etc.) from the system. Without them, the rest of us would be paying significantly more in PAYE, USC and VAT.

odyssey06

I'm on the fence on the co-living, but an absolute must is own kitchens... otherwise one person gets norovirus and everyone will get it.
Unless they're hoping it'll be Facebook staff who never need to cook their own meals.
Maybe it'd make sense for a company like that to block lease the whole unit.

Blut2

They're going to be absolutely horrendous to live in. They're a lower standard than most on campus student accommodation in Dublin. But if they were cheap enough they'd be suitable for very recent college grads in their early 20s for 6 month leases, or for people relocating to Ireland for a job for 6 months before they can network into houseshares or apartment shares.

But that would require them to be reasonably priced - which at €1300pm they're far from. The positive way of looking at it is hopefully after construction they get no uptake at that price, and they're forced to lower their price to something reasonable.

errlloyd

I hope we never get more than a handful of these in the market, but I am okay with a handful existing.

There is an appeal to living in one at the correct time and place. If you rarely cook and you're a well earning single professional then maybe the chance to have absolutely everything taking care of for you is pretty nice. When you do want to cook I think it's pretty cool to have access to some top quality industrial kitchen facilities. And maybe the community aspect to it is nice. I talk to a lot of expats who find Ireland really hard. Although we have a lot of migration we have comparatively little internal displacement. So an expat who rocks up to work in professional services or tech often finds that the Irish colleagues they get already have friends and family here. So expats find it more difficult than say Singapore, London, NY etc. For some this sort of living is probably alright.

hatrickpatrick

Sorry to change the subject for a moment, but just saw this article regarding Beatyard, who are apparently putting out a call for a new venue to come forward and host the event from next summer onwards:

https://www.thesun.ie/tvandshowbiz/music/4381971/beatyard-festival-dun-laoghaire-harbour-uncertainty/

I'm probably writing this post at a bad time since I'm already seething at DLRCOCO over several other issues, but FFS are they just completely useless? Beatyard has been incredible for the town and has offered a replacement of sorts for the former Festival of World Cultures in terms of having a weekend where people from all over Dublin want to come and hang out in Dun Laoghaire for the day as opposed to going elsewhere. Why can't the CoCo get its act together and prioritise issues like these to sort out before the organisers get understandably exasperated in this way and pull out? For an event which has been so successful and good for the town, it's really not unreasonable for them to look for a medium or long term agreement over use of the venue for one weekend each summer, as opposed to not being able to plan for the future because the council insist on doing everything on a last minute, year-by-year basis.

This just seems like an absolute no brainer from where I'm sitting - the CoCo needs to stop arseing around about it and get it sorted FFS, how difficult could it be?

And yes I am biased - of course it's possible that it's the organisers who are taking the piss, but given how county councils around Dublin tend to operate I'd bet every cent I have that this is a case of the council making things unnecessarily difficult rather than the organisers making unreasonable demands.

The news was announced in a statement today.

It read: "It's looking very likely this will be our last time here, that we will be unable to use the Harbour site for the festival next year 2020 & we will need to look elsewhere.

"We aren't getting clear answers on 'next year' and getting the site and dates confirmed - so we are putting the call out now if you have or know anyone in the area [ or beyond ] who would be interested in hosting this Beatyard 2020 - get in touch!

"Ideally we want to keep this festival in Dublin City."

They continued: "This year is our 5th time doing it in Dun Laoghaire, and its [hopefully] fair to say its brought something positive to the area.

"Our pals at Bingo Loco and MCD have run events here this year, and there is/was a real sense that things were going in a positive direction after it taking us 3-4 years to find our feet.

"But at the same time we can't operate here every year on uncertainty, or the idea that other events from abroad will get brought in and we get edged out - not after investing that amount of time and energy into it, and most of us are local to this area too.

"That just doesn't seem fair, so we need to consider & create some options. So we're putting an SOS call out for rescue, can anyone help us find a mooring for 2020?"

ted1

Far from a no brainier. The council are trying to get a permanent tenant for harbour and if they do , then it’s not available.

Blut2

A permanent tenant for the harbour would be fall more valuable year-round. But ideally they could find another local venue for Beatyard too. Would the People's Park work?

hatrickpatrick

ted1 wrote: »

Far from a no brainier. The council are trying to get a permanent tenant for harbour and if they do , then it’s not available.

Would a permanent tenant for the harbour necessarily require that the entire harbour area be included? We've talked for years about establishing a permanent or quasi-permanent performance area in the harbour, either on the Carlisle Pier where Red Bull occasionally hold events, or in the section of the ferry terminal where Beatyard is usually held. Surely finding a tenant for the harbour could include the stipulation that one small piece of it would remain in public ownership for use by events promoters?

EDIT: This paragraph formed part of a press release issued upon the council's formal takeover of the harbour last September:

The 200 year old harbour has a long and distinguished history and is one of the finest man-made harbours in the world. It is an integral part of Dún Laoghaire and gives the town its unique sense of place. The Chief Executive and Elected Members are all committed to maintaining and upgrading public access to this remarkable amentity and will work to maintain the medium to long-term sustainability of the Harbour in conjunction with all existing and future stakeholders while managing its existing infrastructural deficits.

One would have thought that the organisers of an annual festival which draws huge numbers of people to the town every summer would count as stakeholders under that statement, and that maintaining public access to the amenity would involve ensuring that certain areas of it remained available for the staging of outdoor events?

hatrickpatrick

Blut2 wrote: »

Would the People's Park work?

Far too small, and I seriously doubt anyone would be willing to make the park "paid visitors only" during an event like this - the handy thing about the terminal is that unless you're going to an event there, you basically have no reason to want to be there at all.

The only other local place I can think of would be Newtownsmith Green, but this would run into two problems - one, more or less impossible to hold a tickets-only event there given that there are so many entry and exit points and the wall is low enough to simply hop over, unlike the terminal area which has a bottleneck entrance. Secondly, the local residents would almost certainly object, as there's a whole terrace of houses with no front gardens whose front doors would be opening directly onto the massive crowd that Beatyard would attract. I can't remember if there were any such objections when the Festival of World Cultures used to be held there, but I can't imagine there wouldn't be, although if I lived there I'd personally welcome such an event.

One would imagine that whoever takes over the harbour would make a very tidy sum from leasing the terminal area for Beatyard (much like I'm sure the council do now), I don't see why it couldn't be stipulated that this area or the Carlisle pier would remain as performance areas for occasional events. It'd be a huge, huge shame to lose this and the occasional Red Bull shows, if this is truly the reason for the problems.

Awaaf

Aegir wrote: »

200 young professional people living in Dun Laoghaire is exactly what the place needs.

Hopefully they will inject some life into DL at night. Mind you it was busy enough last night on a nice evening but was quietening down at about 8.30pm.

hatrickpatrick

Awaaf wrote: »

Hopefully they will inject some life into DL at night. Mind you it was busy enough last night on a nice evening but was quietening down at about 8.30pm.

I know at the moment there are only a few planned routes, but I hope eventually the 24 hour bus idea being piloted by Dublin Bus on the N11 and two other routes next year will encompass the 7 or 7A route, or the 46A. One of the drawbacks friends of mine always have about coming to Dun Laoghaire on a weekend evening for drinks or food is that all city-bound public transport ceases at exactly 11.30pm (or roughly 11.40 in the case of the 7 bus) which means that if people live elsewhere, or are planning to go out in town after their evening in DL, it's a big rush to grab the last bit of public transport or have to get an expensive taxi home / into town instead.

Even if the last option was at midnight as opposed to 11.30 this would be better, as most pubs or restaurants are closing in and around that time anyway, but the number of times I've been at a party or meal either in someone's gaff or at a pub or restaurant, and all of a sudden someone looks at their phone and says "oh sh!t, last dart in ten minutes" and half the group engages in a mad dash to the station, is hilarious. And of course, on weekends the Nitelink only goes in one direction (and can't be boarded in Dun Laoghaire, only Blackrock) so for people socialising in DL it's a bit useless.

One would assume that if the 24 hour bus goes ahead, this will make spending an evening or night in Dun Laoghaire a lot more attractive for people. I could foresee a huge uptick in the late evening / night time trade in the town if this were to happen. In some cases, the cessation of public transport towards town at 11.30 even prevents people from seeing a movie in IMC, if it starts at say 8.45 or 9 and is a longish one - given the fact that the previews beforehand always mean the actual movie starts later than advertised, I know a lot of folks who simply won't bother going to a late showing in the cinema here even if they're only coming from say Booterstown or Foxrock. I haven't been to the Pavillion Theatre in a while but I'm assuming there's a similar issue there, although to my recollection most shows begin at 8pm exactly so there's possibly less chance of missing the last transport link?

Either way, the late or 24 hour bus service, if it goes ahead, could be a gigantic boost to the kind of evening / night time trade you're talking about. As I say, even psychologically speaking, a lot of people (at least in my anecdotal experience) will rule out spending a weekend evening in Dun Laoghaire altogether, since the more relaxing alternative is to head into town and have the option of a midnight or 1AM Nitelink to get home.

Stephen15

coylemj wrote: »

The only thing that will fix the housing crisis is an increase in supply, the more units that come on stream, the better.

You may not like the format of that new block but if there are people prepared to stump up the money and rent them, who are you to object?

Wouldn't it be much better off though if the space being used for co living was used to house Irish families instead of short term forgein workers that would help increase supply. What in my view is causing the housing is the lack of governement intervention when it comes providing affordable social housing and are instead leaving it up to private developers.

Maybe the staff of international tech firms would be better off living in hotels than Irish families with their food paid for buy the companies themselves.

hatrickpatrick

Stephen15 wrote: »

What in my view is causing the housing is the lack of governement intervention when it comes providing affordable social housing and are instead leaving it up to private developers.

Actually intentionally reducing the supply of subsidised affordable social housing by replacing formerly 100% public developments with new ones in which 50% of the units get sold off permanently to the highest bidder and the council loses control of that land. Absolutely mental. The excuse that they want to create a better social mix is bullsh!t, there's no reason the council couldn't set different tiers of rents to attract different socioeconomic classes into the same development rather than giving half the units to the developer in perpetuity. It's not a DLRCOCO specific thing though, the same thing is happening all over Dublin at the very least.

Does anyone know off the top of their head how many units FitzGerald Park had before the flats were demolished, how many units are in the replacement development, and of those, how many of them are at the mercy of the rental market as opposed to having their rents controlled by the CoCo?

fixXxer

Don't know how many were in the flats but the new development is listed as:

Overview
As part of our commitment to provide high quality social housing we are proposing to construct 50 new units at Fitzgerald Park, Lower Mounttown Road, Dún Laoghaire, Co. Dublin.

The development will consist of the following:

24 no. 1 bed units
6 no. 2 bed units
18 no. 3 bed units
2 no. 4 bed units

Tabnabs

ted1 wrote: »

Far from a no brainier. The council are trying to get a permanent tenant for harbour and if they do , then it’s not available.

This.

The beatyard; a two day event that ties up the entire ferry terminal parking area and extends into the terminal itself.

So we can jump up and down about a two day concert, or support the plan for a permanent employer to bring jobs and revenue year round to the town.

The concerts were only ever a stop gap between ferry operations and a new customer to bring in a multi million euro rent. It's time to live in the real world and not get up in arms because we cant go drinking outdoors in the harbour for the weekend.

ted1

Stephen15 wrote: »

Wouldn't it be much better off though if the space being used for co living was used to house Irish families instead of short term forgein workers that would help increase supply. What in my view is causing the housing is the lack of governement intervention when it comes providing affordable social housing and are instead leaving it up to private developers.

Maybe the staff of international tech firms would be better off living in hotels than Irish families with their food paid for buy the companies themselves.

Racist much?
The foreign staff are working and paying their own and contributing to the state by paying taxes.

The Irish living in hotels are generally not working or contributing to the state, and their hotel bill is being picked up by the foreign workers taxes.

Do you think all the Irish in Canada , Australia, New Zealand , Britain etc so live in hotels ?

Stephen15

ted1 wrote: »

Racist much?
The foreign staff are working and paying their own and contributing to the state by paying taxes.

The Irish living in hotels are generally not working or contributing to the state, and their hotel bill is being picked up by the foreign workers taxes.

Do you think all the Irish in Canada , Australia, New Zealand , Britain etc so live in hotels ?

Nothing racist about what I said. The co living rooms are a similar size to hotel rooms perhaps even smaller so that's why I think the people living in the co living model could possibly receive the same treatment living in hotels.

Stephen15

Tabnabs wrote: »

This.

The beatyard; a two day event that ties up the entire ferry terminal parking area and extends into the terminal itself.

So we can jump up and down about a two day concert, or support the plan for a permanent employer to bring jobs and revenue year round to the town.

The concerts were only ever a stop gap between ferry operations and a new customer to bring in a multi million euro rent. It's time to live in the real world and not get up in arms because we cant go drinking outdoors in the harbour for the weekend.

That's true but whether they can or not find a permanent tenant for the ferry terminal between now and this time next year is a another question. It would be a right waste in my opinion if a new tenant was not found and the Beatyard did not go ahead in the ferry terminal.

miamee

Stephen15 wrote: »

Wouldn't it be much better off though if the space being used for co living was used to house Irish families instead of short term forgein workers that would help increase supply. What in my view is causing the housing is the lack of governement intervention when it comes providing affordable social housing and are instead leaving it up to private developers.

Maybe the staff of international tech firms would be better off living in hotels than Irish families with their food paid for buy the companies themselves.

Currently the people who are likely to end up in co-living spaces would have to house share with multiple others. Fewer people in rented houses frees them up somewhat for families, I'd have thought. As another user said, any amount of new housing will be easing the pressure on the rental market.

ted1

Stephen15 wrote: »

Nothing racist about what I said. The co living rooms are a similar size to hotel rooms perhaps even smaller so that's why I think the people living in the co living model could possibly receive the same treatment living in hotels.

Well you said it’d be better to house Irish families over foreign. That’s racist. Simple as that.
The co living area is the same size as a hotel but you are ignoring the shared living spaces , kitchen, gym etc

Stephen15

ted1 wrote: »

Well you said it’d be better to house Irish families over foreign. That’s racist. Simple as that.
The co living area is the same size as a hotel but you are ignoring the shared living spaces , kitchen, gym etc

I wouldn't regard that as racist to say Irish families should housed ahead of forgein families but anyway. On co living though I get the impression that many people are going to have their accommodation paid for by their companies and as another poster pointed Facebook for example pay for their employees food so couldn't they get the same in a hotel.

In a hotel they could also benefit from food paid for by their company and the likes of gym as you mention. Irish families living in hotels are generally not allowed use the facilities in the hotel as the council will not pay for them and in many cases must use a different door to gain access to paying guests. This is likely because hotels consider them undesirable guests that are considered lowering the tone of the hotel however this would likely not be considered the case with tech workers.

hatrickpatrick

ted1 wrote: »

Well you said it’d be better to house Irish families over foreign. That’s racist. Simple as that.

Actually, it isn't. Nativism and racism are totally separate ideologies.

From dictionary.com:

Racism: a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human racial groups determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to dominate others or that a particular racial group is inferior to the others.

Nativism: the policy of protecting the interests of native inhabitants against those of immigrants.

The disingenuous conflation of racism with nativism in these debates is exceptionally grating and unhelpful IMO.

markpb

Stephen15 wrote: »

I wouldn't regard that as racist to say Irish families should housed ahead of forgein families but anyway. On co living though I get the impression that many people are going to have their accommodation paid for by their companies and as another poster pointed Facebook for example pay for their employees food so couldn't they get the same in a hotel.

Hotels are not suitable for long-term accommodation. They're not even suitable for medium-term accommodation. The fact that we put our homeless people there is not an indication of their suitability, it's an indictment of our inability to solve the housing problem over the last few years. Foreign workers living here have just as much right to permanent accommodation as Irish people. Their employers may have subsidised or free canteens (in some cases) but they still have the same right to live in a house, apartment or co-living unit and cook for themselves with their friends as everyone else.

You might not believe what your posting is racist but it's verging very close to it. All people in Ireland need a place to live. Hotels are a place for short-term stays.

SimonMaher

Tabnabs wrote: »

This.

The beatyard; a two day event that ties up the entire ferry terminal parking area and extends into the terminal itself.

So we can jump up and down about a two day concert, or support the plan for a permanent employer to bring jobs and revenue year round to the town.

The concerts were only ever a stop gap between ferry operations and a new customer to bring in a multi million euro rent. It's time to live in the real world and not get up in arms because we cant go drinking outdoors in the harbour for the weekend.

I can't agree with this I'm afraid. If the outside space is needed for ferries then that's fine but otherwise it's a decent piece of event realm and should be used as often and as much as possible. Under the current planning (for the co-working space), the only outside space which can't be used is the area closest to the terminal and closest to the road which is reserved for office parking. The design and planning specifically allows for other uses for the rest of the space.

This year, that hosts Gamesyard which could be moved elsewhere on site. Beatyard are not using any of the terminal internal space at all this year. There is no reason why the terminal space and the outside space can not operate independently and both be of benefit to the town. The jobs that the terminal offices can bring along with the punters that all the outside events can bring are both welcome and should be treated as such.

Simon

Stephen15

markpb wrote: »

Hotels are not suitable for long-term accommodation. They're not even suitable for medium-term accommodation. The fact that we put our homeless people there is not an indication of their suitability, it's an indictment of our inability to solve the housing problem over the last few years. Foreign workers living here have just as much right to permanent accommodation as Irish people. Their employers may have subsidised or free canteens (in some cases) but they still have the same right to live in a house, apartment or co-living unit and cook for themselves with their friends as everyone else.

You might not believe what your posting is racist but it's verging very close to it. All people in Ireland need a place to live. Hotels are a place for short-term stays.

But the rooms in the co living model are a similar size to hotel room perhaps even smaller so that's hardly means they are suitable for people to live in. I don't believe anyone should be homeless Irish or foreign national but I do think our own should get priority when it comes to housing lists etc.

I don't agree with the tax breaks MNCs are getting when they aren't employing Irish people thought the whole idea of bringing these companies to Ireland was to provide jobs for Irish people.

ted1

Stephen15 wrote: »

provide jobs for Irish people.

Nope, it’s just to provide PAYE jobs.

We have effectively zero % unemployment which means the only people not working are people who choose not to work. So should the IDA be disbanded?

Blut2

ted1 wrote: »

Nope, it’s just to provide PAYE jobs.

We have effectively zero % unemployment which means the only people not working are people who choose not to work. So should the IDA be disbanded?

Ireland's unemployment rate is 4.5%. That can still go down another 1% or so before we're at structural unemployment rates. And thats not accounting for the programs like JobPath that are currently massaging the figures - the real rate is over 5%.

Regardless of that, the jobs in tech firms are largely jobs Irish people can't do - because they require multiple languages. So we absolutely need these people to come to the country to do them, and to pay their high taxes while they do so. They're highly educated, high tax paying, low crime, and young - literally the ideal immigrants.

The idea that the housing crisis is "Irish people vs foreigners" is ridiculous also. In the 1970s the Irish government, of a state with a population of 3million, and which was one of the poorest countries in Europe, built near 10,000 homes a year. In 2018 the Irish government of a state with a population of almost 5million, and now one of the richest countries in the world, built 4000 homes. Theres no excuse for this other than bad government policy.

josip

Blut2 wrote: »

...
Regardless of that, the jobs in tech firms are largely jobs Irish people can't do - because they require multiple languages. ....

Most ridiculous thing I've read on the internet this week.

Blut2

josip wrote: »

Most ridiculous thing I've read on the internet this week.

Ireland (aside from the UK, but they only half count now) has the lowest multiple language proficiency of any EU country by a large margin. The number of Irish people who can speak multiple languages fluently is absolutely tiny compared to what you'd find in Sweden, Holland, Germany etc.

Approx 70% of the staff of the larger MNCs like Google/Facebook etc are non-Irish. This isn't because they dislike Irish people - its because they literally can't find Irish people who speak multiple languages.

I've managed a team in one of these firms, and honestly would have had a preference for hiring Irish people just for having more craic on the team. But you wouldn't believe how hard it is to actually find candidates with the required language skills. Language education in Irish schools is appalling.

josip

I don't disagree about the general dearth of language skills in Ireland, but I don't think it's correct to say that:

the jobs in tech firms are largely jobs Irish people can't do - because they require multiple languages

My own (anecdotal) experience of software development in Ireland between MNCs and small indigenous, is that very few positions require foreign language skills and the majority of non-Irish people working in those companies has nothing to do with language skills.
Foreign IT workers are a cheaper source of skilled labour for most of these positions than Irish people.