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Ridiculous Moderation on Current Affairs/IMHO

[Deleted User]

I'm sure you guys are already aware about this one. In the "Lady can't have her hairy balls waxed" thread, it has been stated that we are not allowed to call a biological male a "he".

Now regardless of what you think about self identification, in a forum with IMHO in it, being told that calling a biological male a "he" is incorrect falls well beyond the bounds of reasonable discourse and instead insists that every poster must use the preferred pronouns of the subject.

Misgendering is the word that has been used to quell conversation. What if when saying "he" we were referring to the persons biological sex? That wouldn't be incorrect.

Surely the right of the individual to live by their own pronoun, doesn't trump the right of others to reject/ignore his their request. Is this the only scenario where this occurs? If so, why do trans people have this right?

I would ask, if this is the standard, then surely you should be closing every Donald Trump thread which calls him orange or comments on his hair as that is definitely image/fat shaming.

I would like to know exactly what is acceptable when discussing a man/woman who thinks they are the opposite sex.

(p.s. this isn't an attack on the specific mod. I'm sure he is only following orders)

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Sittingpretty

Boards.ie: Niamh wrote: »

How do you know that no trans people have appeared or read it? They are unlikely to make themselves known given some of the attitudes in this thread, particularly ones like I have quoted above.

You genuinely want us to ban trans people from participating in threads discussing a trans issue so that you can comfortably post however you like?! The lack of self-awareness is incredible.

I suggest you take your own advice and simply not post in the thread(s) instead.

You suggested people uncomfortable using what they view as incorrect pronouns needn’t participate in threads where this happens.

The above poster merely suggested the same for trans people uncomfortable reading and participating in threads but now you’re saying S/he suggested they should be banned?

The only suggestion of sanction and bans has come from mods and been directed at people uncomfortable calling a man she or being labelled as “cis” anything.

Hypocrisy of the highest order.

I expected more from an INMHO board.

Yer Da sells Avon

Nulu5 wrote: »

For all this talk of so called " misgendering " does that also equally apply to trans members not to misgender biologically born males/females as cis man or cis woman ?

Do you get equally annoyed about people being described as 'straight'?

Boards.ie: Mark

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Niamh some transpeople want to be called by their biological sex, how are we meant to tell the difference up here in the cloud?
There's pandering going on to a small subsection of the trans community here, how can we respect boards policy and the rights of the transcircumgenders. They don't want to be called they, if they were born a she they wish to be referred to as a she.
There are a marginalised group within the Trans community and deserve boards support.

If you know their preferred pronoun, use their preferred pronoun

p1akuw47h5r3it

Boards.ie: Niamh wrote: »

How do you know that no trans people have appeared or read it? They are unlikely to make themselves known given some of the attitudes in this thread, particularly ones like I have quoted above.

You genuinely want us to ban trans people from participating in threads discussing a trans issue so that you can comfortably post however you like?! The lack of self-awareness is incredible.

I suggest you take your own advice and simply not post in the thread(s) instead.

I never said anything about banning anyone. You've just made that up in your own head. No lack of self awareness on my part at all.

If they are too meek to make themselves known due to, what I'd bet my life on the majority consider rather centrists positions being taken in the thread, thats their own problem. It's not up to me to walk on egg shells on the off chance some randomer on the internet may take offence, and do so unbeknown to anyone.

It's been said on this and that thread many times that most of us in day to day life will use the pronoun that is asked of us. It's different when engaging in robust and honest discussion/debate, particularly when about an individual as insidious as JY.

Boards.ie: Niamh

Boards.ie: Niamh wrote: »

How do you know that no trans people have appeared or read it? They are unlikely to make themselves known given some of the attitudes in this thread, particularly ones like I have quoted above.

You genuinely want us to ban trans people from participating in threads discussing a trans issue so that you can comfortably post however you like?! The lack of self-awareness is incredible.

I suggest you take your own advice and simply not post in the thread(s) instead.

Sittingpretty wrote: »

You suggested people uncomfortable using what they view as incorrect pronouns needn’t participate in threads where this happens.

The above poster merely suggested the same for trans people uncomfortable reading and participating in threads but now you’re saying S/he suggested they should be banned?

The only suggestion of sanction and bans has come from mods and been directed at people uncomfortable calling a man she or being labelled as “cis” anything.

Hypocrisy of the highest order.

I expected more from an INMHO board.

You are right DanDan did not say they should be banned, that was the meaning I took from what was posted but I may be incorrect.

The discomfort of using different pronouns is not comparable to the discomfort of a trans person reading about other trans people being deliberately misrepresented, e.g a trans woman being referred to as he or trans man being referred to as she. Not comparable.

My suggestion that DanDan6592 not post in the thread has come only after the original request to use preferred or neutral pronouns has been dismissed as making them uncomfortable. It was not my first suggestion.

p1akuw47h5r3it

Boards.ie: Mark wrote: »

As Niamh said, Boards is a private website, so not all honest opinions are still allowed to be posted (as the FAQ says, there is "no 'right' to freedom of speech"). The terms of the charter still state to be civil and respectful and it has been determined and pointed out that misgendering is neither.

I'm aware of that. I meant specifically to the idea of "misgendering". Noone is debating against the idea that boards can ban and do whatever it wants.

We're discussing how good an idea this particular policy is. Seems like quite an unpopular one from what I can gather.

[Deleted User]

Omackeral wrote: »

I don't think it should be banned as I don't even recognise it but if it makes people who don't ''identify'' as cis uneasy/offended then there's hypocrisy at play.

I am uneasy about any person being described as cis. I would like to ask for it to be a card-able offense to use the word please.

Boards.ie: Mark wrote: »

This isn't what misgendering is. I was born a male, I identify as a male, therefore my identity and my gender correspond with my birth sex, i.e. I am a cis male.

Not that I can imagine. Users are welcome to raise issues with terminology, it can be discussed, and we can make a decision about it. There are no plans to ban the use of "cisgender."

I would like to have that discussion.

Boards.ie: Niamh wrote: »

You genuinely want us to ban trans people from participating in threads discussing a trans issue so that you can comfortably post however you like?! The lack of self-awareness is incredible.

I suggest you take your own advice and simply not post in the thread(s) instead.

That is disgracefully misrepresentative of what was said Niamh. I think you owe that poster an apology

Sittingpretty wrote: »

You suggested people uncomfortable using what they view as incorrect pronouns needn’t participate in threads where this happens.

The above poster merely suggested the same for trans people uncomfortable reading and participating in threads but now you’re saying S/he suggested they should be banned?

The only suggestion of sanction and bans has come from mods and been directed at people uncomfortable calling a man she or being labelled as “cis” anything.

Hypocrisy of the highest order.

I expected more from an INMHO board.

I agree

Yer Da sells Avon wrote: »

Do you get equally annoyed about people being described as 'straight'?

Absolutely not the same thing.

drunkmonkey

Boards.ie: Mark wrote: »

If you know their preferred pronoun, use their preferred pronoun

What if you don't know their preferred pronoun but know they don't want to be refereed to as a they, what should we do, I certainly don't want to be labelled as a transcircumgendersphobe. It's bad enough being called transphobic when your not, you just disagree with some of a minority of trans people's ideology and laws they want changed that infringe on women, men and children rights.
It's not as black or white as the policy paints it. Not all trans are the same and want the same concessions.
The people reporting other posters we don't even know if it's a he or a she or a they. We can't ask them straight out as that's also against policy.

Boards.ie: Niamh

DanDan6592 wrote: »

I never said anything about banning anyone.

Correct and I cleared that up in my above post. My apologies for the misinterpretation.

DanDan6592 wrote: »

You've just made that up in your own head. No lack of self awareness on my part at all.

I misinterpreted your meaning as said above.

DanDan6592 wrote: »

If they are too meek to make themselves known due to, what I'd bet my life on the majority consider rather centrists positions being taken in the thread, thats their own problem. It's not up to me to walk on egg shells on the off chance some randomer on the internet may take offence, and do so unbeknown to anyone.

No one is asking you to walk on egg shells but to participate on this site in the way we expect members to participate; following our expectations set out in the Terms of Use and forum charters. Random people find and read conversationson the site all of the time, far more than will ever post in them. Really when it comes down to it, you can post how you like but if you breach any rules expect to be carded for them or worse and the mod was making users aware of that so that there will be no pleading ignorance.

DanDan6592 wrote: »

It's been said on this and that thread many times that most of us in day to day life will use the pronoun that is asked of us.

I hope that is true, it's a shame that this real life respect can't be rolled over into your posting. Other user are real life people, you either believe it's the right thing to do or you don't.

DanDan6592 wrote: »

It's different when engaging in robust and honest discussion/debate, particularly when about an individual as insidious as JY.

You can say what you like (within site rules) about JY and her antics but we are asking that all trans people are referred to by their preferred pronouns - yes even the dickheads among them. It's an all or nothing type thing. One doesn't get to insult some black people because one black guy one read about in Canada is an asshole, for example. (Not an exactly correlating situation but I can't think of a better one at the moment).

p1akuw47h5r3it

Boards.ie: Niamh wrote: »

You are right DanDan did not say they should be banned, that was the meaning I took from what was posted but I may be incorrect.

You are correct it's not what I meant. But fair enough, we've all made the same mistake so it's no big deal

Boards.ie: Niamh wrote: »

The discomfort of using different pronouns is not comparable to the discomfort of a trans person reading about other trans people being deliberately misrepresented, e.g a trans woman being referred to as he or trans man being referred to as she. Not comparable.

According to who? Who are you judge to judge such a thing, with all due respect.

Boards.ie: Niamh wrote: »

My suggestion that DanDan6592 not post in the thread has come only after the original request to use preferred or neutral pronouns has been dismissed as making them uncomfortable. It was not my first suggestion.

By why should the onus be on those like me to not participate, just on the slim chance that not only a trans-persons happens upon the thread, but that they also end up offended. Why does there discomfort trump mine?

[Deleted User]

lots of things are being wheeled in here which i wouldnt be a fan of tying to the general point, which is that there are a lot of people who dont believe that a person changes gender even when that person feels as if they have.

again, I'll stress my belief that if someone asks that you refer to them as he/she you should try to do that rather than cause upset/offence in everyday debate/living. but if the actual topic is the factual basis or an instance where i might be in a position to state my own belief of the reality, its wrong to have an imprimatur from above.

that a person's gender identity is a matter deeply personal to them, and that it is a matter on which they feel especially sensitive isnt in doubt. but thats true of a huge swathe of other characteristics and topics and boards rightly enough stays very wary of codifying the response to somebody being offended, and especially so when this topic is far from a resolved matter and there is no wide agreement on what is correct- the scientific/societal/moral arguement for the *enforced* acceptance of self-identification of gender is not established.

im offended by a lot of things, id really not expect boards to rule on each and every one of them and enforce my feelings on others.

you might feel this is a case of the admin being ahead of an inevitable curve of progress here, im not in any sure that this has a great foundation.

its bad, bad policy and bad, bad administrative practice.

Boards.ie: Niamh

Deleted User wrote: »

I am uneasy about any person being described as cis. I would like to ask for it to be a card-able offense to use the word please.

If that ever becomes an actual problem on the site we will certainly look into it then.

Deleted User wrote: »

That is disgracefully misrepresentative of what was said Niamh. I think you owe that poster an apology

See my previous post.

Boards.ie: Niamh

drunkmonkey wrote: »

What if you don't know their preferred pronoun but know they don't want to be refereed to as a they, what should we do, I certainly don't want to be labelled as a transcircumgendersphobe. It's bad enough being called transphobic when your not, you just disagree with some of a minority of trans people's ideology and laws they want changed that infringe on women, men and children rights.
It's not as black or white as the policy paints it. Not all trans are the same and want the same concessions.
The people reporting other posters we don't even know if it's a he or a she or a they. We can't ask them straight out as that's also against policy.

Most of these threads start based on a news report - I'd be relatively confident that the article will refer to and/or use the preferred pronoun. If it's a person on a thread that is involved in a discussion - ask them how they prefer to be addressed. You're right, not all trans people want to be addressed in the same way. Just do your best not to deliberately be a dick to someone.

[Deleted User]

Boards.ie: Niamh wrote: »

If someone starts to refer to your personally as a cis male and you ask them not to but they continue, feel free to report it.

Do you not see the ridiculous precedent this sets?

Boards.ie: Niamh

DanDan6592 wrote: »

You are correct it's not what I meant. But fair enough, we've all made the same mistake so it's no big deal

Thanks.

DanDan6592 wrote: »

According to who? Who are you judge to judge such a thing, with all due respect.

At the risk of repeating myself (and I won't do so a third time), it is based on feedback I have received not just recently but in the past from trans members about how it makes them feel to read this type of thing on Boards. With respect, they are much better equipped to say how a trans person may feel than you or I are.

DanDan6592 wrote: »

By why should the onus be on those like me to not participate, just on the slim chance that not only a trans-persons happens upon the thread, but that they also end up offended. Why does there discomfort trump mine?

It's not on the slim chance a trans person reads it though, it's because don't agree with delibverately misgendering a trans person.
We don't allow racism either but it's not in case a non-white person reads it, it's because we don't want it on the site.

All we asked is that you don't be a dick by deliberately referring to a trans person with the pronoun you know they don't want used in reference to them. If you cannot comply then you can post and be carded or stay out of the thread. Those are the two logical conclusions to not complying.

Boards.ie: Niamh

Omackeral wrote: »

Do you not see the ridiculous precedent this sets?

Not really, if someone is calling you something that they know will wind you up they are being a dick and deliberately antagonistic. Most mods would rightfully clamp down on that. Mods can use their own discretion to discern if a report is genuine or not.

[Deleted User]

Boards.ie: Niamh wrote: »

Not really, if someone is calling you something that they know will wind you up they are being a dick and deliberately antagonistic. Most mods would rightfully clamp down on that. Mods can use their own discretion to discern if a report is genuine or not.

Or else they might just be more comfortable are using scientific biology rather than self-ID. But feelings over facts, that's the way of it these days.

You've made your argument, I've made my point. Best of luck.

[Deleted User]

Boards.ie: Niamh wrote: »

Thanks.

We don't allow racism either but it's not in case a non-white person reads it, it's because we don't want it on the site.

You cannot possibly be comparing racism and calling someone by their biological pronoun?

The only way that would be comparable is if a black person got upset that they weren't referred to as white and you changed policy to make it bannable to describe them as black.

p1akuw47h5r3it

Boards.ie: Niamh wrote: »

Thanks.

At the risk of repeating myself (and I won't do so a third time), it is based on feedback I have received not just recently but in the past from trans members about how it makes them feel to read this type of thing on Boards. With respect, they are much better equipped to say how a trans person may feel than you or I are.

I meant in the sense of how do you know they will feel more uncomfortable reading about someone else being misgendered, then I who feels uncomfortable having to use pronouns that I don't believe apply to a particular person, for example, JY.

Boards.ie: Niamh wrote: »

It's not on the slim chance a trans person reads it though, it's because don't agree with delibverately misgendering a trans person.
We don't allow racism either but it's not in case a non-white person reads it, it's because we don't want it on the site.

All we asked is that you don't be a dick by deliberately referring to a trans person with the pronoun you know they don't want used in reference to them. If you cannot comply then you can post and be carded or stay out of the thread. Those are the two logical conclusions to not complying.

But what if you don't believe that person to be trans, as is the case with JY. I don't think they're trans. I believe they're a perverted opportunist. The analogy to racism isn't quite the same.

Are you going to card people for using the term cis, even when they know the person they are refering to is not trans (obviously), and it's not aimed at a particular poster but lets say for example, a famous or well known person?

I ask as has been stated here and on other treads some find it offensive and uncomfortable, and they could potentially read those threads.

Yer Da sells Avon

Deleted User wrote: »

Absolutely not the same thing.

It is exactly the same thing. The word 'cis' only exists for the purpose of differentiating between someone who is, and someone who isn't, transgender. Similarly, 'straight' is also a neologism that exists purely to differentiate between gay/bisexual people and the rest of us. Yet you never hear people saying "I'm not straight, I'm just normal".

MrFresh

Omackeral wrote: »

Or else they might just be more comfortable are using scientific biology rather than self-ID. But feelings over facts, that's the way of it these days.

You've made your argument, I've made my point. Best of luck.

Do you insist on telling people if they are ugly or fat? I mean, feelings over facts after all. Maybe you like informing people in wheelchairs that they are disabled. Do you think perhaps trans people don't know their biological situation and it's up to you to inform them? Nobody is asking you to believe something you don't want to, you're simply being asked to make a small adjustment to your language to life easier for some people who tend to have a rough time of it.

Pawwed Rig

Boards.ie: Mark wrote: »

Users are still able to use "they". To use me as an example again, you don't have to say, "Did you see what he wrote?" You can say, "Did you see what they/Mark/M/the community manager wrote?" for example.

That hardly addresses my point though so I am not sure why I was quoted. It is a cop out tbh.

It is a step too far for a 'discussion' site to compel speech. I thought we were safe enough from American madness over here. I see not and what's coming is will.stifle discussion more and more.

I also reject the don't be a dick argument. If people are expressing an opinion and not trying to be a dick then they are not being one.

drunkmonkey

Yes the are, their asking you to buy into their mental condition, it was only renamed to appease trans lobbyists. Same as what happened here on boards. A few people have a rough time of it and the whole of humanity has to change. That's not how society works but the truth about trans lobbying is starting to emerge. People aren't afraid, there's only so many times you can call someone a bigot or transphobe before they really turn on you. Societys had enough. I'm looking forward to 2020 and the reality of what happened over the last few years with Trans hijacking language, medicine and Human rights comes home to roost.

[Deleted User]

Yer Da sells Avon wrote:

It is exactly the same thing. The word 'cis' only exists for the purpose of differentiating between someone who is, and someone who isn't, transgender. Similarly, 'straight' is also a neologism that exists purely to differentiate between gay/bisexual people and the rest of us. Yet you never hear people saying "I'm not straight, I'm just normal".

The words "him" and "her" exist only to differentiate between biologically male and female.

MrFresh wrote:

Do you insist on telling people if they are ugly or fat? I mean, feelings over facts after all. Maybe you like informing people in wheelchairs that they are disabled. Do you think perhaps trans people don't know their biological situation and it's up to you to inform them? Nobody is asking you to believe something you don't want to, you're simply being asked to make a small adjustment to your language to life easier for some people who tend to have a rough time of it.

Hold up there chief. You made a good point there. Should we refer to wheelchair bound people as people who are able to walk if they think they can? It's very similar to your trans analogy. Logic, facts and common sense will tell you that a wheelchair bound person can't walk, but if they identify that they can, should we accept their reality?

[Deleted User]

MrFresh wrote: »

Do you insist on telling people if they are ugly or fat? I mean, feelings over facts after all. Maybe you like informing people in wheelchairs that they are disabled. Do you think perhaps trans people don't know their biological situation and it's up to you to inform them? Nobody is asking you to believe something you don't want to, you're simply being asked to make a small adjustment to your language to life easier for some people who tend to have a rough time of it.

You picked the example, so it’s not me deciding to pick on fat people now..

If a person who is pretty clearly fat told me they’re not fat, I’d ignore their claim and continue as if I didn’t take notice of that point.

If they asked me to say they’re fat, I’d tell them I disagree, that they are in fact fat as far as I can see.

If they wear something that obscures their physique and they claim they’re not fat, unless I can tell that they are in fact fat, I’ll accept what they say and carry on oblivious to what lies beneath.

But if they’re fat, they’re fat. Saying they’re not does not make it true. And I’m not going to pick and choose my words to avoid offending when I’m confronted with a lie.

I don’t go teasing and picking on fat people. But I have a pair of eyes that provide me with all I usually need to be able to see if someone physically matches with the verbal description they give of themselves.

It’s not my fault. It’s not anyone’s fault. A picture paints a thousand flawed pronouns.

derfderf

Yer Da sells Avon wrote: »

Deleted User wrote: »

Absolutely not the same thing.

It is exactly the same thing. The word 'cis' only exists for the purpose of differentiating between someone who is, and someone who isn't, transgender. Similarly, 'straight' is also a neologism that exists purely to differentiate between gay/bisexual people and the rest of us. Yet you never hear people saying "I'm not straight, I'm just normal".

Do we have a word for a person that isn't albino? Gay & straight is not the same as this. Maybe if we were all straight but gay people were gay-straight it would compare. There is no word common between the two like man and woman.

When a person is referred to as a woman, do you think to yourself cis or trans?

Glass fused light

Boards.ie: Mark wrote: »

As Niamh said, Boards is a private website, so not all honest opinions are still allowed to be posted (as the FAQ says, there is "no 'right' to freedom of speech"). The terms of the charter still state to be civil and respectful and it has been determined and pointed out that misgendering is neither.

This isn't what misgendering is. I was born a male, I identify as a male, therefore my identity and my gender correspond with my birth sex, i.e. I am a cis male.
.......
Not that I can imagine. Users are welcome to raise issues with terminology, it can be discussed, and we can make a decision about it. There are no plans to ban the use of "cisgender."

Calling me a "cis woman" is misgendering me.
I am not a subclass of woman to be shoved aside by someone who is trying to invalidate my word to validate other's word(s) eg trans woman.
I am not blind to the political spin or indoctrination that "cic" is used for.
I am well aware that on other sites "cis" is now being used as the word "****" [ c u n t ]
I was born female the "decision" on my sex was based in biology on the visual existence of my twat [ t w a t ].
The "decisions" on my gender were based on the biology of my sex.

I never met a "single father" in my youth met loads of "single mothers", funny thing is they both lived in the same estates.

So please don't use words like "cis" and "not misgendering" together without admitting the bias in what you are saying.

Glass fused light

Boards.ie: Niamh wrote: »

You can say what you like (within site rules) about JY and her antics but we are asking that all trans people are referred to by their preferred pronouns - yes even the dickheads among them. It's an all or nothing type thing. One doesn't get to insult some black people because one black guy one read about in Canada is an asshole, for example. (Not an exactly correlating situation but I can't think of a better one at the moment).

Actually " black " is the argument being used against gender critics

The ACLU did not pick Gabrielle Ludwig the 5o+ year-old transgender basketball player who has lived a life and went back to college to better herself as their poster children.

Gabrielle has life experience and is very eloquent in describing how transing made a genuine difference in her life. She was open on the real life difficulty she encountered including thinking she could be physically attacked for playing on her team.

Instead it picked someone who is likely to end up in an Olympic tryout ahead of some white girls (the ones taking legal action).
Their poster children are just that, children who have no life experiences and have yet to live an independent life

Gabrielle is white and rather tall.

Boards.ie: Niamh

From the inception of Boards the founders, initial users, Admins and staff have been fully subscribed to the idea of inclusivity and they/we still are. This is where the very basic 'don't be a dick' rule came in and the mod direction that started this thread was intended as an implementation of that.

We're asking for you to have the absolute minimum of respect for any trans person in addressing them or referring to them in the way they have indicated that they prefer or else in a gender neutral manner. This policy is an extension of the 'don't be a dick' rule and is unlikely to change.

The on-thread warning that kick started this thread will be updated to say the 'preferred pronouns' instead of 'correct pronouns'.

Thanks for all contributions here.