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Abortion Discussion, Part the Fourth

robindch

...continuing on from previous threads on abortion (abortion part 1, part 2 and part 3).

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volchitsa

end of the road wrote: »

you can disagree with people on many different things but aline with them on 1 issue. that is the beauty about being one's own person rather then being part of a hive mind. even here, the people who i agree with on this issue, i would disagree with them on most other things. but that is perfectly fine.
if someone is an anti-women, conservative catholic, far-right homophobe then that is very unfortunate and they need to rethink, but if i find myself in agreement with them on something, so be it.

And if someone's support for that particular issue boils down to (let's say) traditional catholic teachings about prolife - or to an incoherent, illogical mess attempting to thinly disguise this fact - then it's fair for others to point this out and to suggest that this is not a coincidence. As many times as necessary.

smacl

volchitsa wrote: »

And if someone's support for that particular issue boils down to (let's say) traditional catholic teachings about prolife - or to an incoherent, illogical mess attempting to thinly disguise this fact - then it's fair for others to point this out and to suggest that this is not a coincidence. As many times as necessary.

Difficult to know the breakdown of numbers, but conservative right wing Christians are certainly the loudest voice among the pro-life brigade. It represents a value system that has been clearly rejected by the people of this country on an number of fronts.

aloyisious

Pearse Doherty TD [Donegal] was on RTE earlier [short interview re new Sec of State N/I] and said, in answer to specific questions, that abortion and extension of civil marriage rights would be discussed between SF and the Sec of State. Mention was also made that the SoS is the former hands-on person with Boris in the Brexit camp.

Hotblack Desiato

I am far from convinced about NI-SF's new-found pro-choice stance...

Cabaal

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

I am far from convinced about NI-SF's new-found pro-choice stance...

If they decide anything else (pro-life) it'll kill their voting base in the rest of Ireland even more then it already has...especially with younger voters.

end of the road

volchitsa wrote: »

And if someone's support for that particular issue boils down to (let's say) traditional catholic teachings about prolife - or to an incoherent, illogical mess attempting to thinly disguise this fact - then it's fair for others to point this out and to suggest that this is not a coincidence. As many times as necessary.

sure, as long as it is done to the individuals who have proven to be as such rather then every single one of us.
pro-life is not a hive mind. there is anything from extreme right wingers to leftists like myself.

volchitsa

end of the road wrote: »

sure, as long as it is done to the individuals who have proven to be as such rather then every single one of us.
pro-life is not a hive mind. there is anything from extreme right wingers to leftists like myself.

Well what I was saying is that if they can't actually defend their opinion except with simplistic and somewhat contradictory sloganeering, then IMO that is sufficient proof. Because the VAST majority of anti abortion sentiment in Ireland traditionally comes from the church and its teachings, so it would be surprising to find a sudden and unexplained upsurge in nonreligion-based anti-choice sentiment.
And the proof that this is not the case is that these prolifers can't actually explain their views coherently - because to do so would require them to admit the actual basis of those views.

What level of proof would you require - that they describe themselves as religious? We saw in the referendum that prolifers were up to all sorts of lies and dishonesty, even pretending to be prochoicers at times, so I wouldn't hold out too much hope of them all being honest and upfront about the origins of their beliefs.

end of the road

volchitsa wrote: »

Well what I was saying is that if they can't actually defend their opinion except with simplistic and somewhat contradictory sloganeering, then IMO that is sufficient proof. Because the VAST majority of anti abortion sentiment in Ireland traditionally comes from the church and its teachings, so it would be surprising to find a sudden and unexplained upsurge in nonreligion-based anti-choice sentiment.
And the proof that this is not the case is that these prolifers can't actually explain their views coherently - because to do so would require them to admit the actual basis of those views.

to be fair from what i can see much of the pro-choice argument was based on simplistic and contradictory sloganeering. there were a few on here who actually did put forward brootley honest arguments which while i disagreed with them, i respected them for their honesty.

volchitsa wrote: »

What level of proof would you require - that they describe themselves as religious?

certainly that would help.

volchitsa wrote: »

We saw in the referendum that prolifers were up to all sorts of lies and dishonesty, even pretending to be prochoicers at times, so I wouldn't hold out too much hope of them all being honest and upfront about the origins of their beliefs.

many of those who you state were pretending to be pro-choice, at least on here, were pro-choice IMO. yes, they didn't stay on message so to speak, but just like pro-life, pro-choice are not a hive mind either.
remember, there generally wasn't a major discussion on the issue before the referendum, so people had questions and a lot of arguments they needed to look through and thrash out. so it may have came across as people pretending to be pro-choice but really i think it was just people discussing and thrashing out everything before making their decision as to how to vote.

aloyisious

Loafing Oaf wrote: »

My understanding is the abortion pill is not distributed through pharmacies at all.

Correct. Hospitals and GP's only, according to a chemist I checked with [to be sure].

Loafing Oaf

end of the road wrote: »

sure, as long as it is done to the individuals who have proven to be as such rather then every single one of us.
pro-life is not a hive mind. there is anything from extreme right wingers to leftists like myself.

My impression is that most Irish pro-life activists, at a grassroots level anyway, have little interest in economic issues at all. For them politics begins and ends with abortion and other 'social issues' prioritised in Catholic teaching.

Hotblack Desiato

Cabaal wrote: »

If they decide anything else (pro-life) it'll kill their voting base in the rest of Ireland even more then it already has...especially with younger voters.

What I mean is that a lot of the old stagers in NI-SF are conservative catholics, it's not a party renowned for people speaking out :pac: but it wouldn't surpirse me if a lot of the natives were not happy, even down south they had a fair number of defections.

In fairness you do have to acknowledge what Enda Kenny did with FG, few would have thought of them as a pro-choice party (difficulties in passing POLDPA in 2013 in spite of the fact that all that it did was codify the Supreme Court's view of the 8th Amendment - the ending of Lucinda et al's political careers on that hill looks laughable and utterly pathetic now)

- but he gave a tap to a boulder and it rolled down the slope and gathered a lot of momentum - citizens' assembly was a genius move because the pro-life postion cannot withstand factual evidence -eventually even conservative Leo got behind it, and we are now in a situation where most NI voters are looking enviously at us because we have something they want but their so-called politicians won't let them have it.

aloyisious

A poll of people below the voting age [teenage girls] in respect to the question of availability of abortion rights to them might make for interesting reading, though the notion of doing such a poll would probably be resisted by people from differing POV's. Young unsophisticated minds shouldn't be burdened with/have ideas planted etc...

Given the range of topics the teenagers have before them now that teenagers a few years ago didn't have to read on/think about/decide their personal POV on, I'd hazard a guess the average Irish teenager has been reading/talking broadly on topics involving sex for the past 5 or more years unbeknownst to the average Irish adult of 30+ age.

EDIT:Accord to an artic el in the iCatholic, "... a coach and horses has essentially been driven through the democratic process and the whole concept of devolution ..."
Archbishop Eamon Martin expresses his concern about how a Westminster Bill was "hijacked" to set in motion a change in the law in Northern Ireland regarding abortion by the end of October. The following link covers the article, should one choose to open and read/listen to it. https://www.icatholic.ie/ni-abortion-law-eamon-martin/

Hotblack Desiato

Public opinion in NI is clearly in favour of the introduction of abortion legislation, so all the talk about 'undemocratic' etc etc is just nonsense.

What's undemocratic is elected representatives getting paid yet refusing to do their jobs for years on end, and extremely conservative catholic and protestant opinions having undue sway over SDLP and DUP respectively when these opinions are only held by a small proportion of the electorate.

end of the road

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Public opinion in NI is clearly in favour of the introduction of abortion legislation, so all the talk about 'undemocratic' etc etc is just nonsense.

What's undemocratic is elected representatives getting paid yet refusing to do their jobs for years on end, and extremely conservative catholic and protestant opinions having undue sway over SDLP and DUP respectively when these opinions are only held by a small proportion of the electorate.

if people don't want conservative catholic and protestant views represented as if they were the majority view when it may not be the case, then they need to vote for other parties. you get what you vote for.

Loafing Oaf

aloyisious wrote: »

A poll of people below the voting age [teenage girls] in respect to the question of availability of abortion rights to them might make for interesting reading, though the notion of doing such a poll would probably be resisted by people from differing POV's. Young unsophisticated minds shouldn't be burdened with/have ideas planted etc...

Can't find the stat now, but IIRC an exit poll after the repeal referendum showed something like 92 percent of 18-25-year-old women voted yes

Cabaal

end of the road wrote: »

if people don't want conservative catholic and protestant views represented as if they were the majority view when it may not be the case, then they need to vote for other parties. you get what you vote for.

Karen Bradley, is that you?

Honestly, if you don't understand why one group of people in NI vote one way and another group of people vote another in Northern Ireland then you don't understand Northern Ireland.

I'll give you a hint, it's almost zero to do with the partys stance on abortion and marriage and much more to do with northern Irelands history.

DUP bleat on time and time again about how the union is important to them, since they won't form an assembly its only right Westminster take charge and bring Northern Ireland laws inline with the rest of that union the DUP claim to love.

end of the road

Cabaal wrote: »

Karen Bradley, is that you?

Honestly, if you don't understand why one group of people in NI vote one way and another group of people vote another in Northern Ireland then you don't understand Northern Ireland.

I'll give you a hint, it's almost zero to do with the partys stance on abortion and marriage and much more to do with northern Irelands history.

DUP bleat on time and time again about how the union is important to them, since they won't form an assembly its only right Westminster take charge and bring Northern Ireland laws inline with the rest of that union the DUP claim to love.

i am well aware of how things work up there. i have been discussing northern ireland and it's history and mountains of issues caused by that history for years both here and elsewhere.
and no it's not right westminster take charge and force british laws on non-british territory, especially when westminster is unable to govern actual british territory properly.
it should but out of northern ireland and let the devolved government either get back working, or to wallow and do nothing, for which the public there might get annoyed enough to push them to get back to work.
if westminster interferes here now, it probably won't stop and who knows what damage it may do to everything that has been worked for. westminster has been the cause of northern ireland's problems ever since it split it from the south.

aloyisious

end of the road wrote: »

i am well aware of how things work up there. i have been discussing northern ireland and it's history and mountains of issues caused by that history for years both here and elsewhere.
and no it's not right westminster take charge and force british laws on non-british territory, especially when westminster is unable to govern actual british territory properly.
it should but out of northern ireland and let the devolved government either get back working, or to wallow and do nothing, for which the public there might get annoyed enough to push them to get back to work.
if westminster interferes here now, it probably won't stop and who knows what damage it may do to everything that has been worked for. westminster has been the cause of northern ireland's problems ever since it split it from the south.

Come on, drop the Westminster taking charge and forcing British laws on non-British territory in respect to equal civil marriage and abortion services argument. You mean it taking charge when both of the main political parties which had been running the local Govt there had a falling-out over proposed language laws and use of Govt funds and stopped providing a Govt for the good of N/I citizens. You're conveniently forgetting that one of the N/I failing parties claims to be British by choice and very fond of Westminster law. Its on quasi-religious grounds that particular loyal to Britishness party is trying to prevent the institution of civil laws already available to, and used by, other British citizens.

Oddly enough its similar law rights brought in by the Irish Govt, at the behest and instruction of the citizens of the republic that Westminster is in the process of introducing for the citizens of N/I that you seem to be objecting to. The laws, if brought in by Westminster, will provide an equality of service to Irish citizens in N/I to that given to citizens of the republic under Irish law, something I believe you will appreciate, unless you totally oppose the similar laws on equal civil marriage and minimal abortion services legislated for and applying down here, and by default, ally your argument with that of the objecting Pro-Westminster N/I party.

The failure of the devolved govt to work has absolutely nothing to do with the abortion law changes Westminster is aiming to bring into effect in N/I and you, given how you have been discussing N/I with others, must be well aware of that fact.

Igotadose

Fair play to the Kiwis, they've finally decriminalized abortion, though their time limit's too low imo. Ireland should adopt some of this and remove the 12 week limit.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-newzealand-abortion/new-zealand-to-decriminalize-abortion-laws-critics-say-bill-falls-short-idUSKCN1UV04U

aloyisious

I like the third ground, the woman's well-being. It covers social and actual ability to care for any child that would be born if an abortion was refused.

robindch

The Aussie state of NSW is also looking to liberalize its own anti-abortion laws:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/aug/04/nsw-abortion-law-reform-united-church-breaks-religious-ranks-to-back-decriminalisation

Cabaal

Pro-Life Soldier Bootcamp in the USA featured on Vice News.

One thing is clear from pro-life side, they are extremely well funded
You've only have to listen to the brief run down of money they pay out to students, using 4-Stars hotels etc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W7y1tnf8Yw0

They believe they are there to save the world......
:rolleyes:

Igotadose

Salvadoran woman, previously sentenced to 40 years imprisonment due to a stillbirth, now freed.
https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2019/08/el-salvador-clears-woman-serving-30-years-for-stillbirth-as-teenager.html

Apparently there are 147 other women in Salvadoran prisons under the same sentence. Imagine being a woman in that country.

Now, let's hope NI doesn't reconstitute Stormont before 21 October and this island will be free of equivalent horrible legislation.

aloyisious

Survey from The Guardian.com. https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/aug/22/a-new-poll-shows-what-really-interests-pro-lifers-controlling-women

Hotblack Desiato

Well, that explains why an Irish Times article from 2013 was most-read yesterday! (it's linked in the Guardian article)

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/religion-and-beliefs/catholic-church-teaching-on-abortion-dates-from-1869-1.1449517

As regards the survey results, is anyone the least bit surprised?

aloyisious

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Well, that explains why an Irish Times article from 2013 was most-read yesterday! (it's linked in the Guardian article)

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/religion-and-beliefs/catholic-church-teaching-on-abortion-dates-from-1869-1.1449517

As regards the survey results, is anyone the least bit surprised?

Pius must have depended on infallibility to conclude that Mary was conceived free of original sin herself unless it was a committee [synod] decision.

Cabaal

aloyisious wrote: »

Survey from The Guardian.com. https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/aug/22/a-new-poll-shows-what-really-interests-pro-lifers-controlling-women

Not at all surprising really, between interactions with pro-lifers both online and offline their views towards women tend to be very restricting and controlling, they generally don't trust or really like women.

Before somebody says "but many pro-lifers are women", sadly that doesn't change the fact that many women can be women's own worst enemy's. We all knows these types of women exist and even during the suffragette movement many women opposed the very idea of women voting.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/religion-and-beliefs/catholic-politicians-must-defend-life-from-conception-to-death-1.4009321

Catholic politicians are obliged to oppose laws that violate the integrity of life “from conception to death”, Archbishop of Armagh and Catholic Primate of All Ireland Eamon Martin has said.

"People of faith must always be attentive to the danger of living parallel lives whereby they compartmentalise their existence into spiritual and secular spheres."

Splitters!

"Neither should they confuse their personal opinion with a well-formed Christian conscience."

Translation:

"Yous might think yous know what yous are talking about but yous don't. Forget all that stuff yous might have heard from the church about free will and conscience. Yous only have one of those piddly little ordinary consciences. I've spent years studying advanced God Stuff so I've got a well-formed christian conscience, I'm practically one step away from papal infallibility. But if you listen to your conscience, it might be the devil whispering in your ear. So shut up and do as I tell you."

aloyisious

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/religion-and-beliefs/catholic-politicians-must-defend-life-from-conception-to-death-1.4009321

Splitters!

Translation:

"Yous might think yous know what yous are talking about but yous don't. Forget all that stuff yous might have heard from the church about free will and conscience. Yous only have one of those piddly little ordinary consciences. I've spent years studying advanced God Stuff so I've got a well-formed christian conscience, I'm practically one step away from papal infallibility. But if you listen to your conscience, it might be the devil whispering in your ear. So shut up and do as I tell you."

So he's admitting that he sees a lot of peoples personal opinion is NOT based on the religious instruction they got at the hand of the church, as in olden days. Peculiar that his opinion-piece is to that most British of southern newspapers, the Irish Times, instead of to the Irish Examiner or the Indo, or even a red top. Its possible pure coincidence that its published on the weekend there's an anti-abortion rally at Stormont protesting the passage into law in N/I of UK introduced legal changes on abortion.

Igotadose

aloyisious wrote: »

So he's admitting that he sees a lot of peoples personal opinion is NOT based on the religious instruction they got at the hand of the church, as in olden days. Peculiar that his opinion-piece is to that most British of southern newspapers, the Irish Times, instead of to the Irish Examiner or the Indo, or even a red top. Its possible pure coincidence that its published on the weekend there's an anti-abortion rally at Stormont protesting the passage into law in N/I of UK introduced legal changes on abortion.

Good point Aloysious. With the shenanigans in Westminster, the law's guaranteed to change now, there's zero chance Stormont comes back and the gummint is soon to be off running an election. 21 September can't come soon enough