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Cork developments

snotboogie

I noticed that the Limerick equivalent is a very popular thread over on their forum so I thought I might get one going here. To kick things off I'll list the bigger current projects I can think of:

Under Construction

Navigation Square: Four building office development on the former Navigation House site on Albert Quay. 310,000 sq ft of office space for up to 3000 employees. First phase to be completed Feb 19'

89-90 South Mall: 50,000 sq ft office, 5 storey office building.To be completed in December 18'

Dalata Hotel South Mall: Six storey hotel, 165 beds. To be completed in December 18'

Various Student Accommodation: Western Road and Beamish site are under construction, Crows Nest has planning and should start soon, Square Deal is facing appeals, Coca-Cola site on the Carrigrohane Road has had planning for over a year but nothing has happened? O’Riordans Joinery, Gillen House on Farranlea Road, Model Farm Road/Melbourne Road and Copely Street are all at various stages of planning and/or limbo.

Planning/Appealed

Horgan's Quay: Office Space for 5,000 employees, 200 apartments, 136 bed hotel and 3000 sq metres of restaurants and retail. Got planning permission in March but it was appealed by Port of Cork. Uncertain when the final decision will be. Construction on the Hotel will hopefully begin in Q4 this year with the office and apartments commencing in 2019.

Sullivan's Quay: 6 storey Office & 193 bed 4 star Hotel. Planning granted and immediately appealed. Given that demolition is nearly complete I'd expect this to go into construction as soon as planning is granted. Potential hold up over the height of the hotel, at 12 storeys and 47 metres, it is set to make the top 20 tallest buildings in the state if completed. An Taisce not happy.

Former Victoria Hotel: Knocking much of the Victoria and rebuilding to the back and refurbishing the original historic front/facade and to integrate the two sections into a new high order retail unit, of 25,000 sq ft, over four floors. Rumoured to be taken over by Zara. Planning granted in Feb, nothing happened on site since.

Metropole Redevelopment: €50m redevelopment of the Metropole Hotel to include a new five-storey boutique hotel on Patrick's Quay. Planning granted with amendments in March. No date for work to start.

Wilton Shopping Centre: €100 million revamp proposed. Mistake made in planning permission. In the process of resubmitting.

In Limbo

Event Centre: 6000 all seater multi purpose event centre with a tourist brewery experience. Arguably the most controversial construction project in the history of the city. After a bleak 6 months at the back end of 2017 there have been two instances of positive murmurs from the Government and BAM in January 2018 and April 2018. Construction allegedly to start in Q4 2018 but there are still conflicting and contradictory statements from all parties involved. Most would be shocked to see this start in 2018.

Anderson Quay/Camden Quay/Trinity Quarter: All have had planning for years with no work on site. Camden Quay allegedly had some work going on last week but I'd be shocked if it was related to the actual construction. I can't see any of these sites being developed as per their current proposals.

Concept/Pre Planning

Docklands Tower: 40 storey mixed use tower with the redevelopment of the existing customs house warehouses into cultural, tourist and retail space. By a mile the most ambitious development in Ireland. Announced over one year ago and no sign of a planning permission application yet, allegedly waiting for the Docklands development plan this summer to rezone heights for the site. If we don't see a planning application by the end of the year I'd be worried.

Ford Distribution Depot: Put on sale last week. Former site of the extremely ambitious Atlantic Quarter. Major development opportunity

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hans aus dtschl

Deleted User wrote: »

Well to be fair the objectors are always very fast with other people's money for renovating buildings, without ever wanting to pay to maintain the buildings themselves.

That is how no one gave a sh!te about them. A building can have all the architectural merit in the world but Ireland loves to allow such building decay, with no consequences to the owner.

Yep it's all too common, just look at Vernon Mount: I believe it was "protected" also.

Anyway I think we've exhausted all this to death.
Some people like the facade of the Sextant, big deal.

[Deleted User]

hans aus dtschl wrote: »

I just disagree that the idea that they were "sitting rotten for decades and nobody gave a sh!te about them... until developers showed interest in the site". Those buildings do have architectural merit.

Well to be fair the objectors are always very fast with other people's money for renovating buildings, without ever wanting to pay to maintain the buildings themselves.

That is how no one gave a sh!te about them. A building can have all the architectural merit in the world but Ireland loves to allow such building decay, with no consequences to the owner.
They can be beautiful architecture AND a dilapidated old ruin, at the same time, in this country. Look at North Main Street and how nothing is done to the property owners allowing them literally fall down!

Captainsatnav

Justin Credible Darts wrote: »

how is that cork events centre coming along then ?

and Marina park?!, Tivoli, Bus Connects...it's just so incredibly frustrating the culture there with the local NIMBYs and Councillors

hans aus dtschl

Deleted User wrote: »

But the arguments were that objectors did not want those warehouses developed for anything other than a market or public amenity Etc.
They did not want the port of cork building (New or Old design) put there at all.

No one wants them demolished, development proponents have always wanted to incorporate them into the designs.

Yeah I don't know anything about any objectors and I'm delighted to see anyone willing to do something with the site.
I just disagree that the idea that they were "sitting rotten for decades and nobody gave a sh!te about them... until developers showed interest in the site". Those buildings do have architectural merit.

All IMO of course. I appreciate that one person's beautiful architecture is another person's dilapidated old ruin!

questionmark?

hans aus dtschl wrote: »

questionmark? wrote: »

Ah would you stop. The vast majority of people want to see them saved and integrated into a new development rather than the falling down ruins they currently are!

You'd think so, yeah. I'd love to see them saved.

I believe they're listed buildings also.

They are. In earlier post I complemented the mix of old and new. That's what really stands out in the proposed design for me.

[Deleted User]

hans aus dtschl wrote: »

You'd think so, yeah. I'd love to see them saved.

I believe they're listed buildings also.

But the arguments were that objectors did not want those warehouses developed for anything other than a market or public amenity Etc.
They did not want the port of cork building (New or Old design) put there at all.

No one wants them demolished, development proponents have always wanted to incorporate them into the designs.

hans aus dtschl

questionmark? wrote: »

Ah would you stop. The vast majority of people want to see them saved and integrated into a new development rather than the falling down ruins they currently are!

You'd think so, yeah. I'd love to see them saved.

I believe they're listed buildings also.

questionmark?

hans aus dtschl wrote: »

Loire wrote: »

I love the buildings on the right. Are these the warehouses people are referring to? I always thought these could be re-developed into something like the Faneuil markets in Boston.

Yes these are the protected bonded warehouses which some people feel have no architectural merit.

Ah would you stop. The vast majority of people want to see them saved and integrated into a new development rather than the falling down ruins they currently are!

hans aus dtschl

Deleted User wrote: »

Wait what?
Who is saying that?

If I remember the arguments were that people was complaining the the developments wanted to repurpose and develop the internals, while keeping the exterior.

fonecrusher1 wrote: »

Christ what a joke this is. Proposal for that site to accommodate badly needed high density city apartments during a housing crisis and the 'We love the Sextant' brigade suddenly arise. Oh that's an important building! Says the person who probably literally forgot it existed until someone told them there was plans to build on the site. Same oul craic with the Port of Cork warehouses that have been sitting rotten for decades and nobody gave a sh!te about them... until developers showed interest in the site.

:rolleyes:

There is absolutely nothing about the sextant building that even remotely makes me have a quick think about maybe not knocking it. Get rid, Cork city needs the investment.

Everyone's opinions are different: I'd been down beside those bonded warehouses a few times many years ago and thought they were beautiful.

I appreciate that not everyone shares this opinion.

[Deleted User]

hans aus dtschl wrote: »

Yes these are the protected bonded warehouses which some people feel have no architectural merit.

Wait what?
Who is saying that?

If I remember the arguments were that people was complaining the the developments wanted to repurpose and develop the internals, while keeping the exterior.

hans aus dtschl

Loire wrote: »

I love the buildings on the right. Are these the warehouses people are referring to? I always thought these could be re-developed into something like the Faneuil markets in Boston.

Yes these are the protected bonded warehouses which some people feel have no architectural merit.

Loire

namloc1980 wrote: »

It's opposite to what was originally flagged. The tower now is on top of the custom House building instead of on the end of the site.

I love the buildings on the right. Are these the warehouses people are referring to? I always thought these could be re-developed into something like the Faneuil markets in Boston.

hans aus dtschl

snotboogie wrote: »

He's referring to the Origin Holdings plan, which won't be followed by OCP.

Exactly, thanks.
The general plan for the area is dense and high.

I'm not arguing to keep it: all I'm saying is not to criticise R&H Hall for being a tall concrete cuboid!

hans aus dtschl

namloc1980 wrote: »

What master plan? It hasn't been released yet?

Sorry I should have been clearer, you're right that the plan hasn't been released. But the scant detail that we have so far indicates that this area will be dense and will be high.

Apogee wrote: »

credit: [/I]https://twitter.com/EoinBearla/status/1148662938489827328

snotboogie

namloc1980 wrote: »

What master plan? It hasn't been released yet?

He's referring to the Origin Holdings plan, which won't be followed by OCP.

Lackadaisical

There's nothing unique about it. Every port in Europe and North America had similar big ugly grain silos.

There'll be a massive problem maintaining that structure. Are you suggesting the City Council should maintain it out of tight budgets for amenities and public housing?

I can't see how it could be incorporated into any new development and you can't cut holes in a silo to create windows, as the structure is like a concrete tank. It would become unstable. So all you're left with is a big, windowless, concrete box.

snotboogie

Markcheese wrote: »

A building of that scale is gonna end up being an an Bord plánála job anyway, they'll know a few floors off, and tweak it a bit, but there's not really much reason to refuse it (as long as its not compromising the current listed buildings),
I think the tower looks far better at the western end of the site than the original proposal...
Any one want to hazard a guess on timelines,? And Wether the prisim gets started first..?
And How many new Hotels are proposed for cork at the moment? (Sullivans Quay, parnell place, custom House, throw in hogan's Quay, is there one in penrose Quay?)

I'd say ground could be broke about 15 months from now if Tower Holdings are really serious, a more realistic timeline may be 24 months and then probably 3-4 years to build. The Prism is essentially ready to go now, Tower Holdings have said they will start before the end of the year.

Horgan's Quay hotel is under construction, Parnell Place may start this year, Sullivan's Quay is for sale and probably won't be built until the event centre is, no hotel on Penrose Quay.

namloc1980

hans aus dtschl wrote: »

You may be in for a rude awakening.

They're going to densely build tall cuboid concrete blocks throughout that area, according to the master plan.

And the thing you're currently considering ugly could end up being one of the only things that looks any bit unique.

What master plan? It hasn't been released yet?

hans aus dtschl

Lackadaisical wrote: »

Honestly, the mass concrete grain silo is hideous and it also towers over a very nice residential area at the end of the marina / Blackrock area.

If you want to pay tribute to the port's agrifood heritage, there are far better ways to do so than maintaining an ugly concrete block. I mean if you were to propose constructing that building now there would be absolute uproar. I think it speaks for a time when the city didn't care what it looked like and the port was treated shamefully with some of those structures.

You may be in for a rude awakening.

They're going to densely build tall cuboid concrete blocks throughout that area, according to the master plan.

And the thing you're currently considering ugly could end up being one of the only things that looks any bit unique.

Don't get me wrong, I personally don't see much value in R&H Hall being maintained, I just don't expect much better in its place.

Lackadaisical

Honestly, the mass concrete grain silo is hideous and it also towers over a very nice residential area at the end of the marina / Blackrock area.

If you want to pay tribute to the port's agrifood heritage, there are far better ways to do so than maintaining an ugly concrete block. I mean if you were to propose constructing that building now there would be absolute uproar. I think it speaks for a time when the city didn't care what it looked like and the port was treated shamefully with some of those structures.

It's also of a time when what should be parkland was turned into heavy industry under a ford motor plant and later a large power station, complete with coal and slag heaps.

Some of that stuff isn't worth preserving. There are a few brick facades, but seriously we are getting carried away with ourselves preserving a big concrete silo, the likes of which you'll find all over the place. It's neither unique nor does it bring anything to the area other than a depressing memory of a depressing 20th century run down port that was staring into a grim future.

Who's going to maintain a windowless concrete shell structure? It's not really going to have any purpose nor will it be able to be incorporated into any new development. You'll end up with a big ugly derelict grain silo in the middle of a modern cityscape.

marno21

hans aus dtschl wrote: »

I don't think so, going by Horgan's Quay website:
http://www.hqcork.ie/

I think it's the prism one.
https://theprismbuilding.ie/about/

It is indeed the Prism. Both Tower Holdings developments of course.

fonecrusher1

the beer revolu wrote: »

What I am trying to say is that if we want good, attractive, sustainable development, it is the job of the city to impose this. If it is more expensive to preserve buildings, then developers will , naturally, rail against that. This is not a reason to not preserve old buildings. If we don't impose conditions on the developers we will end up with more Merchant's Quay monstrosities and an awful, soulless city.

No developer is developing for the public good - and nor would I expect them to.

This is why we need strong, joined up, enforceable, consistent planning.

Yup all well made points but as far as i'm concerned not applicable when referring to the Port of Cork warehouses and the Sextant site.

1. The POC warehouses are going to be incorporated into the tower development based on existing artists renderings. So what more do those objecting want? Don't see the beef here at all.

2. The Sextant is not historically significant, is not listed and IMO has no redeeming architectural features whatsoever that should merit sympathetic treatment. But as you implied each to their own. You think the R&H concrete silo is fantastic, I think its ugly, always have and don't know one single person who would claim otherwise.

Don't get me wrong. If a developer proposed a 30 storey high rise next to a beautiful and historically significant building i'd be the first to wade in. But in both cases here i'm not seeing enough to even make me blink.

questionmark? wrote: »

Lets hope both get built along with the Prism.

As far as I know the Prism is a definite green light. It has been approved and work will commence shortly. Open to correction on this.

ofcork

hans aus dtschl wrote: »

I don't think so, going by Horgan's Quay website:
http://www.hqcork.ie/

I think it's the prism one.
https://theprismbuilding.ie/about/

Looks like it could be the prism alright same developers too.

[Deleted User]

hans aus dtschl wrote: »

The save poolbeg campaign in Dublin might disagree with you. It's not totally abnormal to see value in some of these old industrial buildings.

Look I suspect that you're not a fan of brutalism (you're urgently needed up in UCC: the Kane building is calling out to be demolished). But IMO a lot of the newer buildings in Cork are terribly cheap looking. If you'll meet me half way, I feel about the Capitol the way you feel about R&H hall.

I'm actually not against renovations on industrial buildings.

I know it's renovation is industry to industry but the Roe&Co distillery in StJames gate is perfect (and I hate giving Diageo credit for anything)

It's as stark a building as you'll get but it's damn beautiful.

I was in it when it was a dilapidated power station, change is remarkable

https://www.rte.ie/news/business/2019/0610/1054515-roe-co-distillery/

hans aus dtschl

ofcork wrote: »

Whats the other tall building in the cgi pic I assume whats being built on horgans quay?

I don't think so, going by Horgan's Quay website:
http://www.hqcork.ie/

I think it's the prism one.
https://theprismbuilding.ie/about/

ofcork

Whats the other tall building in the cgi pic I assume whats being built on horgans quay?

hans aus dtschl

fonecrusher1 wrote: »

C_e I think there would be very very few people who would share the same passion for what is basically a concrete block akin to something you would see near Chernobyl. Seriously if that becomes a 'thing' as in a group is formed to protect it? I don't know... I give up.

Its a whingers paradise these days in Cork city with all these horrific plans for massive infrastructure investment. Disgraceful!

The save poolbeg campaign in Dublin might disagree with you. It's not totally abnormal to see value in some of these old industrial buildings.

Look I suspect that you're not a fan of brutalism (you're urgently needed up in UCC: the Kane building is calling out to be demolished). But IMO a lot of the newer buildings in Cork are terribly cheap looking. If you'll meet me half way, I feel about the Capitol the way you feel about R&H hall.

[Deleted User]

marno21 wrote: »

I really can't see why anyone would object to this tbh.

Duck; Objections incoming!!

Markcheese

A building of that scale is gonna end up being an an Bord plánála job anyway, they'll know a few floors off, and tweak it a bit, but there's not really much reason to refuse it (as long as its not compromising the current listed buildings),
I think the tower looks far better at the western end of the site than the original proposal...
Any one want to hazard a guess on timelines,? And Wether the prisim gets started first..?
And How many new Hotels are proposed for cork at the moment? (Sullivans Quay, parnell place, custom House, throw in hogan's Quay, is there one in penrose Quay?)

marno21

I really can't see why anyone would object to this tbh.

It includes full restorative redevelopment of the bonded warehouses, brings life into the area, a new microdistillery where the 40 storey tower was to go, the new hotel and apartments in the 34 storey building, and all close to the expanding CBD and the train station, along with the N8.

With the abolition of building heights and the coming on stream of the Prism, JCD Albert Quay etc, new buildings won't be stopped, they'll just be delayed. And if they are delayed, there really are no winners in such a scenario.

I think this has a real good chance of happening too. These guys don't seem like flippers after a quick buck given the effort gone into this so far. It more seems to me like two fellas from the region who had to emigrate for work and now are returning after making their money to leave their mark on their nearest home city. This really is a wonderful development and it was well worth the wait.