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Cork developments

snotboogie

I noticed that the Limerick equivalent is a very popular thread over on their forum so I thought I might get one going here. To kick things off I'll list the bigger current projects I can think of:

Under Construction

Navigation Square: Four building office development on the former Navigation House site on Albert Quay. 310,000 sq ft of office space for up to 3000 employees. First phase to be completed Feb 19'

89-90 South Mall: 50,000 sq ft office, 5 storey office building.To be completed in December 18'

Dalata Hotel South Mall: Six storey hotel, 165 beds. To be completed in December 18'

Various Student Accommodation: Western Road and Beamish site are under construction, Crows Nest has planning and should start soon, Square Deal is facing appeals, Coca-Cola site on the Carrigrohane Road has had planning for over a year but nothing has happened? O’Riordans Joinery, Gillen House on Farranlea Road, Model Farm Road/Melbourne Road and Copely Street are all at various stages of planning and/or limbo.

Planning/Appealed

Horgan's Quay: Office Space for 5,000 employees, 200 apartments, 136 bed hotel and 3000 sq metres of restaurants and retail. Got planning permission in March but it was appealed by Port of Cork. Uncertain when the final decision will be. Construction on the Hotel will hopefully begin in Q4 this year with the office and apartments commencing in 2019.

Sullivan's Quay: 6 storey Office & 193 bed 4 star Hotel. Planning granted and immediately appealed. Given that demolition is nearly complete I'd expect this to go into construction as soon as planning is granted. Potential hold up over the height of the hotel, at 12 storeys and 47 metres, it is set to make the top 20 tallest buildings in the state if completed. An Taisce not happy.

Former Victoria Hotel: Knocking much of the Victoria and rebuilding to the back and refurbishing the original historic front/facade and to integrate the two sections into a new high order retail unit, of 25,000 sq ft, over four floors. Rumoured to be taken over by Zara. Planning granted in Feb, nothing happened on site since.

Metropole Redevelopment: €50m redevelopment of the Metropole Hotel to include a new five-storey boutique hotel on Patrick's Quay. Planning granted with amendments in March. No date for work to start.

Wilton Shopping Centre: €100 million revamp proposed. Mistake made in planning permission. In the process of resubmitting.

In Limbo

Event Centre: 6000 all seater multi purpose event centre with a tourist brewery experience. Arguably the most controversial construction project in the history of the city. After a bleak 6 months at the back end of 2017 there have been two instances of positive murmurs from the Government and BAM in January 2018 and April 2018. Construction allegedly to start in Q4 2018 but there are still conflicting and contradictory statements from all parties involved. Most would be shocked to see this start in 2018.

Anderson Quay/Camden Quay/Trinity Quarter: All have had planning for years with no work on site. Camden Quay allegedly had some work going on last week but I'd be shocked if it was related to the actual construction. I can't see any of these sites being developed as per their current proposals.

Concept/Pre Planning

Docklands Tower: 40 storey mixed use tower with the redevelopment of the existing customs house warehouses into cultural, tourist and retail space. By a mile the most ambitious development in Ireland. Announced over one year ago and no sign of a planning permission application yet, allegedly waiting for the Docklands development plan this summer to rezone heights for the site. If we don't see a planning application by the end of the year I'd be worried.

Ford Distribution Depot: Put on sale last week. Former site of the extremely ambitious Atlantic Quarter. Major development opportunity

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Padraig Mor

cgcsb wrote: »

Copenhagen has now achieved 40% of commutes by bike and their infrastructure isn't fancy.

Last I looked (although I acknowledge it's been a while), for all the blather about cycling commute journeys in Copenhagen, their proportion, while doubtless very substantial by most cities' standards, was still lower than that of private cars in the city. Your post also shows the fallacy of comparing City X to City Y etc - having been lucky enough to visit Copenhagen last year (and a very pleasant city it is indeed), it's hardly comparable to Cork in these terms - it's chock full a wide boulevards with plenty of space to put in cycle lanes, with most roads simply having a lot more space available than Cork's boreens. I also believe that Copenhagen has a much greater proportion of people living within the city centre itself than Irish cities, thus making cycle commutes a realistic option for greater numbers.

With current demographics, cycling is, and will remain, suitable for a small minority of commuters in Cork. Unfortunately, these people tend to be very vocal and over represented on planning bodies etc. I've said it before - if you want to really tackle commuter car congestion in Cork, put in a 'ring' of park and ride facilities with high quality, frequent public transport into the city - hell, put a Coke bike station at each of them too. THEN we can begin to look at 'stigmatising' car drivers - unfortunately 'the stick' rather than the carrot is the lazy, moribund refrain that we constantly hear from the anti car brigade who are more motivated by their own selfish self interest rather than genuine solutions which would help the entire community.

Roger Hassenforder

Padraig Mor wrote: »

Last I looked (although I acknowledge it's been a while), for all the blather about cycling commute journeys in Copenhagen, their proportion, while doubtless very substantial by most cities' standards, was still lower than that of private cars in the city. Your post also shows the fallacy of comparing City X to City Y etc - having been lucky enough to visit Copenhagen last year (and a very pleasant city it is indeed), it's hardly comparable to Cork in these terms - it's chock full a wide boulevards with plenty of space to put in cycle lanes, with most roads simply having a lot more space available than Cork's boreens. I also believe that Copenhagen has a much greater proportion of people living within the city centre itself than Irish cities, thus making cycle commutes a realistic option for greater numbers.

With current demographics, cycling is, and will remain, suitable for a small minority of commuters in Cork. Unfortunately, these people tend to be very vocal and over represented on planning bodies etc. I've said it before - if you want to really tackle commuter car congestion in Cork, put in a 'ring' of park and ride facilities with high quality, frequent public transport into the city - hell, put a Coke bike station at each of them too. THEN we can begin to look at 'stigmatising' car drivers - unfortunately 'the stick' rather than the carrot is the lazy, moribund refrain that we constantly hear from the anti car brigade who are more motivated by their own selfish self interest rather than genuine solutions which would help the entire community.

A lot of the anti-car brigade are motorists.
I'm a motorist and cyclist. Ive to drive the kids to school, (one walks), but they should all be able to cycle without risk getting killed by some gobshîte in a car thinking they're very important, and that FCUKING CYCLIST IS HOLDING ME UP ON THEIR FCUKING BIKE.

Planners have an obligation to ensure sustainable development, try mitigate effect of the development, and improve health/environment where possible. Bikes tick more boxes than car use.

You're right about a ring of P&R and expanded Coke bikes. Last couple of weeks ive been into town regularly. I would have driven, decided to take bus. I'd have cycled if the coke scheme came out to Bishopstown. Wouldnt fancy locking baby up for the day.

cgcsb

shnaek wrote: »

They also have a driverless metro that runs 24/7 and also runs to the airport. They haven't even managed that in Dublin.

Their metro opened in 2002 (one line), their cycling revolution began long before that.

hans aus dtschl

Padraig Mor wrote: »

With current demographics, cycling is, and will remain, suitable for a small minority of commuters in Cork. Unfortunately, these people tend to be very vocal and over represented on planning bodies etc. I've said it before - if you want to really tackle commuter car congestion in Cork, put in a 'ring' of park and ride facilities with high quality, frequent public transport into the city - hell, put a Coke bike station at each of them too. THEN we can begin to look at 'stigmatising' car drivers - unfortunately 'the stick' rather than the carrot is the lazy, moribund refrain that we constantly hear from the anti car brigade who are more motivated by their own selfish self interest rather than genuine solutions which would help the entire community.

Do you really think motorists are stigmatised and cycling is over-represented?
"MAMILS" are pretty frequently attacked on "DRIVE TIME" radio shows, in between ads for SUV's and the "AA ROADWATCH" slot.

80% of cyclists in this country are also motorists, according to the RSA. 68% of people drive their commute. I'm not sure who you think is doing the stigmatising. I'm not sure who the anti-car brigade might be, and I'm not sure what "stick" there has been, when the vast majority of transport infrastructure spending is to improve the lot of private motorists. Let alone "constant" stick.

In terms of "own selfish interest", what could possibly be more selfish than someone like me (who can afford to keep multiple cars on the road) wanting priority over some OAP or child who cannot drive and has a substandard footpath and public transport system?

cgcsb

Padraig Mor wrote: »

Last I looked (although I acknowledge it's been a while), for all the blather about cycling commute journeys in Copenhagen, their proportion, while doubtless very substantial by most cities' standards, was still lower than that of private cars in the city. Your post also shows the fallacy of comparing City X to City Y etc - having been lucky enough to visit Copenhagen last year (and a very pleasant city it is indeed), it's hardly comparable to Cork in these terms - it's chock full a wide boulevards with plenty of space to put in cycle lanes, with most roads simply having a lot more space available than Cork's boreens. I also believe that Copenhagen has a much greater proportion of people living within the city centre itself than Irish cities, thus making cycle commutes a realistic option for greater numbers.

With current demographics, cycling is, and will remain, suitable for a small minority of commuters in Cork. Unfortunately, these people tend to be very vocal and over represented on planning bodies etc. I've said it before - if you want to really tackle commuter car congestion in Cork, put in a 'ring' of park and ride facilities with high quality, frequent public transport into the city - hell, put a Coke bike station at each of them too. THEN we can begin to look at 'stigmatising' car drivers - unfortunately 'the stick' rather than the carrot is the lazy, moribund refrain that we constantly hear from the anti car brigade who are more motivated by their own selfish self interest rather than genuine solutions which would help the entire community.

I didn't directly compare Cork to Copenhagen, they are a different set up. But on the topic, Copenhagen still has a high % of cars because they allow it, they give lots of space to cars, despite their lip service to sustainability. Most of copenhagen's cycling priority doesn't actually come from the routes on the big boulevards it comes from the side streets where parking was removed and replaced with a contra-flow bike lane. Where roads were closed to through traffic except cycles etc. You can hardly argue that big wide roads = easy to plan for cyclists and narrow streets = easy to plan for cars, quite the opposite is true. Cork is small, hardly any of the urban area is more than 5km (a short cycle) from the centre.

namloc1980

cgcsb wrote: »

Their metro opened in 2002 (one line), their cycling revolution began long before that.

2002, and here we are with the prospect of maybe getting some improvements in public transport sometime around 2040. :pac::(

hans aus dtschl

namloc1980 wrote: »

If Dunkettle gets shelved, once the O'Flynn development in Glanmire and the tower in Mahon come on stream the tunnel will be utter gridlock.

O'Flynn development is progressing very quickly. Some buildings in there have tiled roofs now.

City Council now have responsibility for the approx. 20 No. Part 8 road improvement schemes in Glanmire. They've taken it over from County Council. There are no detailed drawings yet and it has not gone out to tender. Some of the plans are contingent on Dunkettle being completed.

Part 8 report of the (County) Chief Exec says:

Planning permission was granted recently by An Bord Pleanala for 608 residential units at Ballinglanna under the Strategic Housing Development provisions of the legislation. A condition of the permission requires a formal legal agreement between Cork County Council and the housing developer (Section 47 agreement). The agreement is to regulate the payment of special contributions towards the cost of the infrastructure now proposed in this Part 8; and addresses the timing of the delivery of the infrastructure via-a-vis the delivery of housing units. Previously, two applications for large scale housing developments at Ballinglanna/Dunkettle were refused planning permission. Critical to the refusal was the lack of adequate road infrastructure. This Part 8 proposal is the culmination of the County Council’s response to address that deficiency. It follows from a traffic modelling exercise and consultation with stakeholders including TII. It has the financial support of government through LIHAF funding and is also underpinned by ABP through the recent planning decision.
The delivery of these improvements to the local roads infrastructure is critical to the achievement of the housing development at Ballinglanna (and will facilitate future housing on zoned land at Dunkettle).

It looks like there's a sort of log-jam now. Will they plough on and start selling houses even though nothing has changed? I'd say O'Flynn won't be impressed if there's terrible transport into and out of their new estate. Especially if they've already made their contributions.

Limerick74

@corkcitycouncil: The Wilton Corridor project is deemed to be of the highest priority due to its potential to remove traffic blockages, support sustainable travel, reduce journey times & improve safety. It is considered to be critically important for access between the centre & key destinations https://twitter.com/corkcitycouncil/status/1147100823517892609/photo/1

hans aus dtschl

Limerick74 wrote: »

@corkcitycouncil: The Wilton Corridor project is deemed to be of the highest priority due to its potential to remove traffic blockages, support sustainable travel, reduce journey times & improve safety. It is considered to be critically important for access between the centre & key destinations https://twitter.com/corkcitycouncil/status/1147100823517892609/photo/1

Council's going to have to love-bomb those residents. It's that or restrict motorists on that road (one way, etc) which I don't think is possible right now.

Markcheese

hans aus dtschl wrote: »

Council's going to have to love-bomb those residents. It's that or restrict motorists on that road (one way, etc) which I don't think is possible right now.

Is the wilton Road expansion actually going to help public transport and bike lanes, or just going to encourage more cars to use the road..
(to my mind the quicker they make it part of a proper Brt line from Kent Station to ballincolig the better) (and if put another quality bus route with park and rides from Douglas through the city to the North side all the better)

Former Observer

To the person saying that most of the people complaining about the Sextant being knocked were probably never in there, I find that highly unlikely. Most Cork people will have been in the Sextant at some stage, but in any case, it's the facade they are concerned about presumably. Personally I think it looks nice next to the new glass and steel buildings. Adds character. Certainly that thing that they've built next to it is as ugly as sin.

EnzoScifo

Markcheese wrote: »

Is the wilton Road expansion actually going to help public transport and bike lanes, or just going to encourage more cars to use the road..
(to my mind the quicker they make it part of a proper Brt line from Kent Station to ballincolig the better) (and if put another quality bus route with park and rides from Douglas through the city to the North side all the better)

It's part of the sustainable transport plans for the city. This widening is the first step in creating a dedicated transport corridor that will eventually be the route for light rail.

I'd also like to point out that the guy behind this protest group also objected to the Wilton redevelopment due to "lack of sustainable transport options"

who_me

Might be a daft proposal... but given some obvious bottlenecks in Cork city (Douglas is a very obvious one, probably Wilton too) is there a case for combining the inner-city legs of bus routes, then change buses for the outer/suburban route? It avoids having multiple routes needlessly running along the same route into town?

So currently - you have 207,216, 220, 223 (others?) all running along the Douglas Rd. into town. Causing traffic problems. People are watching the other (often half empty) buses pass by while waiting for the one they want, which will likely be running late due to traffic.

Instead: one route that runs from city centre to Douglas, double-deckers only. If you're going to/from (or past/through) Douglas, you use this. Reach Douglas, and you change to a shorter-route shuttles that run between Douglas and Mount Oval, Carrigaline, Donnybrook etc.

Less congestion on the inner-city routes. Higher frequency of buses (since every bus is "your" bus). Outer-city routes not delayed by inner-city leg congestion.

(Obvious downsides: having to change bus, especially in poor weather. On the 220 from Carrigaline to Ballincollig, you might have to swap buses twice, at Douglas and Wilton(?) )

Has it been considered? Rejected?

namloc1980

who_me wrote: »

Might be a daft proposal... but given some obvious bottlenecks in Cork city (Douglas is a very obvious one, probably Wilton too) is there a case for combining the inner-city legs of bus routes, then change buses for the outer/suburban route? It avoids having multiple routes needlessly running along the same route into town?

So currently - you have 207,216, 220, 223 (others?) all running along the Douglas Rd. into town. Causing traffic problems. People are watching the other (often half empty) buses pass by while waiting for the one they want, which will likely be running late due to traffic.

Instead: one route that runs from city centre to Douglas, double-deckers only. If you're going to/from (or past/through) Douglas, you use this. Reach Douglas, and you change to a shorter-route shuttles that run between Douglas and Mount Oval, Carrigaline, Donnybrook etc.

Less congestion on the inner-city routes. Higher frequency of buses (since every bus is "your" bus). Outer-city routes not delayed by inner-city leg congestion.

(Obvious downsides: having to change bus, especially in poor weather. On the 220 from Carrigaline to Ballincollig, you might have to swap buses twice, at Douglas and Wilton(?) )

Has it been considered? Rejected?

This is along the lines of what BusConnects will be. You'll have core routes that then break off to their final destination. But multiple changes of bus is not desirable in any way. What if there's no connecting bus there when you get to Douglas?

MrDerp

I’ve spent some time in Copenhagen and a lot of the cycling stats are actually hybrid commute, a park n ride system where the ride is a bike. People I worked with there would often drive 20-30km to a combined car/bike garage and then cycle the last 10km to work.

Makes for great inner city cycle stats but to be fair I never witnessed noticeably huge congestion.

None of the locals I spoke to cycled for anything other than minimizing commute time.

Think garages at every n40 junction and cycle lanes into town. Good for city centre traffic but not always evidence of a reduction in car ownership, though some reduction in use.

Dermo123

opus wrote: »

Guessing this is to give the Millerd St apartment development an entrance onto Henry St.

This is a seperate developement under planning reference 19/38240.

Basically 4 apartments over 4 floors. All 1 bed.

snotboogie

Farranlea Rd student apartments look to be starting in the next week or so

Roger Hassenforder

Heres a quick fix for Wilton rd.
Scrap the right turn at Dennehys, 3 or 4 cars get to turn anyway before their filter arrows goes

Extend the bus lane through Dennehys, but with primacy, i.e. the traffic yields to it.
Make it 24 hours and enforce the fcuk out of it

j8wk2feszrnpao

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

Make it 24 hours and enforce the fcuk out of it

Who’s gonna enforce it?
Same issue I had with Patrick’s St ban, you have to have enforcement.
Camera system? But there on the Pats St ban thread it was mentioned there was issues with implementing such a system.

j8wk2feszrnpao

MrDerp wrote: »

None of the locals I spoke to cycled for anything other than minimizing commute time.

Was in Southern France recently, same feedback from locals there (after anecdotal evidence that they all love their bikes) even with the better weather.

Roger Hassenforder

munstermagic11 wrote: »

Who’s gonna enforce it?
Same issue I had with Patrick’s St ban, you have to have enforcement.
Camera system? But there on the Pats St ban thread it was mentioned there was issues with implementing such a system.

Cops & Cameras.. a sign with some zero tolerance guff. Sorted.

There was a clampdown a while ago, big improvement. Things slipping lately.

Its a bit different from the Pana ban, they're obviously not told to enforce it. So its rubbish. Half hearted measures, Irish style. Id love to see it pedestrianised altogether.

trackrunner

snotboogie wrote: »

Farranlea Rd student apartments look to be starting in the next week or so

Construction started here in May after 1 or 2 weeks site clearance. They're well on their way! Can get a picture during the week.

mean gene

Regarding the wilton saga which I fully support the residents - will they get money for losing half their gardens or what. Also what happens if they won't allow them take it

normanbond

What is the proposal for Victoria Cross Road? All this talk about widening Wilton Road is crazy .....
All they’ll be doing is kicking the can down the road onto VCR as that bottleneck really needs to be sorted first!!

hans aus dtschl

mean gene wrote: »

Regarding the wilton saga which I fully support the residents - will they get money for losing half their gardens or what. Also what happens if they won't allow them take it

CPO.

cgcsb

mean gene wrote: »

Regarding the wilton saga which I fully support the residents - will they get money for losing half their gardens or what. Also what happens if they won't allow them take it

Its a compulsory purchase order, the state buys it from them, their consent isn't required.

sheff_

normanbond wrote: »

What is the proposal for Victoria Cross Road? All this talk about widening Wilton Road is crazy .....
All they’ll be doing is kicking the can down the road onto VCR as that bottleneck really needs to be sorted first!!

There’s no extra lane/traffic heading for Victoria x in this plan. The only extra traffic lane will be a southbound bus lane

Limerick74

@corkcitycouncil: Wilton bus corridor Part 8 project voted down by Elected Members: 16 no vs. 8 yes.. #corkcc

cgcsb

Limerick74 wrote: »

@corkcitycouncil: Wilton bus corridor Part 8 project voted down by Elected Members: 16 no vs. 8 yes.. #corkcc

As predicted. The NTA will handle the project and come up with a proper design

Limerick74

Hopefully CMATS projects keep well away from the Part 8 process.