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Cork developments

snotboogie

I noticed that the Limerick equivalent is a very popular thread over on their forum so I thought I might get one going here. To kick things off I'll list the bigger current projects I can think of:

Under Construction

Navigation Square: Four building office development on the former Navigation House site on Albert Quay. 310,000 sq ft of office space for up to 3000 employees. First phase to be completed Feb 19'

89-90 South Mall: 50,000 sq ft office, 5 storey office building.To be completed in December 18'

Dalata Hotel South Mall: Six storey hotel, 165 beds. To be completed in December 18'

Various Student Accommodation: Western Road and Beamish site are under construction, Crows Nest has planning and should start soon, Square Deal is facing appeals, Coca-Cola site on the Carrigrohane Road has had planning for over a year but nothing has happened? O’Riordans Joinery, Gillen House on Farranlea Road, Model Farm Road/Melbourne Road and Copely Street are all at various stages of planning and/or limbo.

Planning/Appealed

Horgan's Quay: Office Space for 5,000 employees, 200 apartments, 136 bed hotel and 3000 sq metres of restaurants and retail. Got planning permission in March but it was appealed by Port of Cork. Uncertain when the final decision will be. Construction on the Hotel will hopefully begin in Q4 this year with the office and apartments commencing in 2019.

Sullivan's Quay: 6 storey Office & 193 bed 4 star Hotel. Planning granted and immediately appealed. Given that demolition is nearly complete I'd expect this to go into construction as soon as planning is granted. Potential hold up over the height of the hotel, at 12 storeys and 47 metres, it is set to make the top 20 tallest buildings in the state if completed. An Taisce not happy.

Former Victoria Hotel: Knocking much of the Victoria and rebuilding to the back and refurbishing the original historic front/facade and to integrate the two sections into a new high order retail unit, of 25,000 sq ft, over four floors. Rumoured to be taken over by Zara. Planning granted in Feb, nothing happened on site since.

Metropole Redevelopment: €50m redevelopment of the Metropole Hotel to include a new five-storey boutique hotel on Patrick's Quay. Planning granted with amendments in March. No date for work to start.

Wilton Shopping Centre: €100 million revamp proposed. Mistake made in planning permission. In the process of resubmitting.

In Limbo

Event Centre: 6000 all seater multi purpose event centre with a tourist brewery experience. Arguably the most controversial construction project in the history of the city. After a bleak 6 months at the back end of 2017 there have been two instances of positive murmurs from the Government and BAM in January 2018 and April 2018. Construction allegedly to start in Q4 2018 but there are still conflicting and contradictory statements from all parties involved. Most would be shocked to see this start in 2018.

Anderson Quay/Camden Quay/Trinity Quarter: All have had planning for years with no work on site. Camden Quay allegedly had some work going on last week but I'd be shocked if it was related to the actual construction. I can't see any of these sites being developed as per their current proposals.

Concept/Pre Planning

Docklands Tower: 40 storey mixed use tower with the redevelopment of the existing customs house warehouses into cultural, tourist and retail space. By a mile the most ambitious development in Ireland. Announced over one year ago and no sign of a planning permission application yet, allegedly waiting for the Docklands development plan this summer to rezone heights for the site. If we don't see a planning application by the end of the year I'd be worried.

Ford Distribution Depot: Put on sale last week. Former site of the extremely ambitious Atlantic Quarter. Major development opportunity

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Markcheese

Would it be a better bet to improve the current north ring.. And access from blarney area to ballincolig bypass, as well as better orbital bus routes and park and rides... Rather than waiting decades for a new North ring..

Roger Hassenforder

cgcsb wrote: »

In fairness Cork County City Council's redesign of the road is a shambles, regardless of the resident's gardens,

hans aus dtschl wrote: »

Wilton Road's not really a suburb: exactly as you say it's right between all these major trip generators. At a guess it'd be the prime place to start with a congestion charge.
It's on possibly the best bus route in the country. And most people from outside the city do not use Wilton Road to access CUH. Most of them do not use Wilton Road to access UCC or CIT either. It's primarily used for people to get to the city centre from the west, and for people to cross the city between North and South.

Whether youre right or wrong, i dont know, but If this goes ahead, it will become a major thoroughfare in the western side of the city. If we have learned anything ftom Irish traffic planning, trying to ease a congested route by trying to make the traffic flow faster, will result in more traffic using it, as it has become more attractive, and back to square one.

Wilton Rd is very residential, either side of it (excepting the Pres grounds). I imagine air pollution (NOX/SOX) from traffic is already a local issue. Putting more traffic there will just exacerbate it.

Its incentivising less car use we should be doing. Be interesting to see how vocal the City Councillors are about this. North Ring Rd is urgently needed.

Did someone seriousky reference DuPlantier? What a gobshîte.

Markcheese

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I've got an answer to all this anyway :D
Build the bloody North Ring Road.

Most of that traffic is stuck because of the traffic backlog going towards Wellington bridge, going up towards Sunday's Well.

Cos, yeah spending mega billions (and it will be) to increase car use is exactly what the city needs... (although, making wilton road wider will do little to nothing for traffic coming from the North city...)

quietsailor

Flesh Gorden wrote: »

to admit you don't want to lose your parking income for the greater good.

I agree with the need for the road widening in principle but where exactly do ye all think the residents cars are now going to be parked? That is a high congestion area with the hospital staff / patients / visitors looking for parking as well.

For that matter a lot of those houses are house shares for medical staff and students, they all have a car each so four to six cars per house, depending on bedroom numbers. Do you think these cars will magically disappear? Think of the practicalities of living there when you go home outside the city at the weekend.

Flesh Gorden

RINO87 wrote: »

From the very small sample of pictures it looks to be retired folk getting their grandkids to do the protesting for them.....devaluing their own inheritance!!

Makes a better photo to hurd in the grandkids from all over than to admit you don't want to lose your parking income for the greater good.

rino87

namloc1980 wrote: »

Just read one of the signs being held up by one of the children. "Down with the threats of the NTA, our community killed like Du Plantier". What kind of a shower are they? So disrespectful. I hope they bulldoze all the gardens out there.

Yeah, what the hell is that about??!!

From the very small sample of pictures it looks to be retired folk getting their grandkids to do the protesting for them.....devaluing their own inheritance!!

[Deleted User]

fonecrusher1 wrote: »

Surely being told your garden is going to be affected automatically makes it a CPO. I'm pretty sure any affected NIMBYs get a nice chunk of dough for their troubles. I'm open to correction on that.

I mean the whole property. Buy me out of my house and I'm happy, again I'm still at the age where a move isn't going to overly bother me

fonecrusher1

Deleted User wrote: »

Not necessarily to be honest. At my age I can happily move and not have it an issue, as long as my move to a similar property does not leave me out of pocket. That's why there should be a full CPO option if they are impacting drastically.

Were I in my 60's and my entire life worth of family memories? I'd be a curmudgeon to be bloody honest.

Surely being told your garden is going to be affected (by as much as a few meters) automatically makes it a CPO. I'm pretty sure any affected NIMBYs get a nice chunk of dough for their troubles. I'm open to correction on that.

[Deleted User]

hans aus dtschl wrote: »

I'd agree. North Ring Road + Congestion Charge should drop traffic on Wilton Road dramatically.

This Is what I would get behind. Give alternatives and then implement a charge.

[Deleted User]

fonecrusher1 wrote: »

Would getting a nice tax free lump of compensation money help ease the pain?

Not necessarily to be honest. At my age I can happily move and not have it an issue, as long as my move to a similar property does not leave me out of pocket. That's why there should be a full CPO option if they are impacting drastically.

Were I in my 60's and my entire life worth of family memories? I'd be a curmudgeon to be bloody honest.

fonecrusher1

Deleted User wrote: »

If someone came to me and said "I'm taking several metres of your garden, and replacing it with a multi lane road now up to your window" I can tell you that my response would not be polite.

Would getting a nice tax free lump of compensation money help ease the pain?

Padraig Mor

hans aus dtschl wrote: »

Yeah traffic is closer, but it's primarily (only?) bicycles.
The bus (every 15 mins) will be effectively in the same place it is now. And it's specifically NOT HGV's, or heavy traffic.

So, the residents are losing a significant portion of their family property to facilitate the private transport choice of a small minority?

cgcsb

In fairness Cork County Council's redesign of the road is a shambles, regardless of the resident's gardens, the NTA will have to redesign it properly. Basically the council are attempting to create 2 car lanes where possible, and then give secondary consideration to bus and bikes. The NTA will do the opposite.

hans aus dtschl

Deleted User wrote: »

I've got an answer to all this anyway :D
Build the bloody North Ring Road.

Most of that traffic is stuck because of the traffic backlog going towards Wellington bridge, going up towards Sunday's Well.

I'd agree. North Ring Road + Congestion Charge should drop traffic on Wilton Road dramatically.

[Deleted User]

hans aus dtschl wrote: »

Yeah traffic is closer, but it's primarily (only?) bicycles.
The bus (every 15 mins) will be effectively in the same place it is now. And it's specifically NOT HGV's, or heavy traffic.

I've got an answer to all this anyway

:D
Build the bloody North Ring Road.

Most of that traffic is stuck because of the traffic backlog going towards Wellington bridge, going up towards Sunday's Well.

hans aus dtschl

Deleted User wrote: »

It's still bringing traffic closer no matter which way it's swung.

I'd have little/no sympathy if there was a CPO option on the entire property TBH

Yeah traffic is closer, but it's primarily (only?) bicycles.
The bus (every 15 mins) will be effectively in the same place it is now. And it's specifically NOT HGV's, or heavy traffic.

hans aus dtschl

Deleted User wrote: »

How do you congestion charge a suburb next to the main hospital in the south of the country though and right between two huge colleges and the FAS training school?

Let's start by saying
I know nothing whatsoever about implementing congestion charges.
Then
CMATS study says it would reduce motorised traffic by a significant amount.

But anyway, the point:
Wilton Road's not really a suburb: exactly as you say it's right between all these major trip generators. At a guess it'd be the prime place to start with a congestion charge.
It's on possibly the best bus route in the country. And most people from outside the city do not use Wilton Road to access CUH. Most of them do not use Wilton Road to access UCC or CIT either. It's primarily used for people to get to the city centre from the west, and for people to cross the city between North and South.

[Deleted User]

hans aus dtschl wrote: »

Did you see the plan? It's to put in cycle lanes on the outside and then bus lanes. The heavy traffic will be in the same place it is now. And many of the "gardens" are used to park cars.

And the residents would also be on possibly the best bus route in the city, all subsidised by the city.

I agree that they've reason to be aggrieved BTW, just that the picture you paint isn't 100% accurate.

It's still bringing traffic closer no matter which way it's swung.

I'd have little/no sympathy if there was a CPO option on the entire property TBH

Thephantomsmask

I think this group is headed up by the same man who was in the paper recently objecting to the redevelopment of Wilton shopping centre because there was no "infrastructure" for the traffic. When I rented there petitions would go around every so often for various things, no HGVs, no traffic during rush hour etc

[Deleted User]

hans aus dtschl wrote: »

From reading the background documents of CMATS ("Supporting Measures") it looks like a congestion charge should be brought in ASAP.

How do you congestion charge a suburb next to the main hospital in the south of the country though and right between two huge colleges and the FAS training school?

hans aus dtschl

Deleted User wrote: »

Is anyone surprised by people fighting to protect their gardens?
And it is not just their garden, they will go from having heavy traffic 15-20M away to pretty much outside their windows. That makes a huge difference

If someone came to me and said "I'm taking several metres of your garden, and replacing it with a multi lane road now up to your window" I can tell you that my response would not be polite. So while I fully agree that the widening has to happen, I would be less than truthful if I said that I don't totally understand their objections.

Do we need the road widened, as a city? Yes
Does that mean that those impacted are being needlessly stubborn? Not really

As much as we give out about the NIMBY activist it's so much easier for those of us not impacted to roll our eyes and complain about them.
Are we, say, a GIIBY (Grand If It's Your Backyard)?

Did you see the plan? It's to put in cycle lanes on the outside and then bus lanes. The heavy traffic will be in the same place it is now. And many of the "gardens" are used to park cars.

And the residents would also be on possibly the best bus route in the city, all subsidised by the city.

I agree that they've reason to be aggrieved BTW, just that the picture you paint isn't 100% accurate.

hans aus dtschl

I don't really understand what the locals in Wilton want. Other than "No Change", obviously, but that's not possible.

They want to reduce traffic outside their homes and protect their gardens at the same time, but CPO'ing their gardens IS the effort to reduce traffic, and many of the gardens are currently used for parking numerous cars in the first place.

Perhaps a one-way system could be viable, if council simultaneously CPO a strip of Pres RFC and came out into Roger Casement Park. Seems like a bad solution for everyone east of Wilton Road though.

From reading the background documents of CMATS ("Supporting Measures") it looks like a congestion charge should be brought in ASAP.

[Deleted User]

Is anyone surprised by people fighting to protect their gardens?
And it is not just their garden, they will go from having heavy traffic 15-20M away to pretty much outside their windows. That makes a huge difference

If someone came to me and said "I'm taking several metres of your garden, and replacing it with a multi lane road now up to your window" I can tell you that my response would not be polite. So while I fully agree that the widening has to happen, I would be less than truthful if I said that I don't totally understand their objections.

Do we need the road widened, as a city? Yes
Does that mean that those impacted are being needlessly stubborn? Not really

As much as we give out about the NIMBY activist it's so much easier for those of us not impacted to roll our eyes and complain about them.
Are we, say, a GIIBY (Grand If It's Your Backyard)?

namloc1980

Just read one of the signs being held up by one of the children. "Down with the threats of the NTA, our community killed like Du Plantier". What kind of a shower are they? So disrespectful. I hope they bulldoze all the gardens out there.

Limerick74

These PT projects will cause loads of similar of protests in urban areas and the politicians will be surely tested to get them through. May need to increase capacity in ABP and take the decision making out of local councillors. Part 8s are no good for anything controversial.

namloc1980

If I were a betting man I'd say the public transport corridor will be killed off by locals......just like the Metro southern section in Dublin. This country is a joke when it comes to public transport projects

snotboogie

Rhys Essien wrote: »

JCD clearly stated that the Sextant tower plan was due to companies giving out about their staff finding it hard to find accommodation. IMO he was referring particularly to Apple and the large number of young foreign staff. In this case why would schools in the area matter. This type of accommodation will never really be for a family with kids.

Also one or two of the other faangs possibly moving in across the way at their own development in Penrose Dock. Phase two of Navigation Square is really coming along now but still no tenant announcement, they seem to be struggling a bit. I’d say OCP will be done with office for a while once they get out of this, they just don’t seem to have the connections that JCD and BAM do. The Ballincollig office developerment looks nearly done too and no announcement there either, though the local media has completely ignored that development from the start so there could well be something in the background.

Nothing on the two massive student developments out past UCC or on the York St hotel. Despite the insane level of construction going on in the docks, no major projects have started in 2019.

[Deleted User]

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

Ballymun is what not to do all right, not only from design, but everything. but its a bit different from high density beside existing services.
Massive greenfield development of 1000s units, but no services (shops etc.) when built, a couple KM outside city. Miles from anything.
As tenants couldnt buy flats when circumstances improved, they moved out, leaving just social dependants, and the resulting antisocial problems

Oh I know anf I think it's a reason why Ireland hates apartments

Rhys Essien

JCD clearly stated that the Sextant tower plan was due to companies giving out about their staff finding it hard to find accommodation. IMO he was referring particularly to Apple and the large number of young foreign staff. In this case why would schools in the area matter. This type of accommodation will never really be for a family with kids.

Roger Hassenforder

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Ballymun?

Ballymun is what not to do all right, not only from design, but everything. but its a bit different from high density beside existing services.
Massive greenfield development of 1000s units, but no services (shops etc.) when built, a couple KM outside city. Miles from anything.
As tenants couldnt buy flats when circumstances improved, they moved out, leaving just social dependants, and the resulting antisocial problems