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Manchester United Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours 2019/2020

GavRedKing

New thread, old one here :

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057960334

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bucketybuck

~Rebel~ wrote: »

Think his get-out clause that got activated this window is just 25m.

As little as I want to defend our inept board, it must be said that when you have a quality defender available for only £25m and none of the top clubs are seemingly interested, well occams razor would say that there is something else going on.

I don't know what that something else is but that buy out clause has been known about for a year now, this is a 30 year old at the prime age for wanting that last big move and signing bonus, and yet there is no sign of him moving whatsoever. No links, no buzz, no rumours, nothing except people online saying we should move for him.

There has to be a reason.

0gac3yjefb5sv7

Maguire is maybe the most unmarketable person around...

Mitch Connor

bucketybuck wrote: »

As little as I want to defend our inept board, it must be said that when you have a quality defender available for only £25m and none of the top clubs are seemingly interested, well occams razor would say that there is something else going on.

I don't know what that something else is but that buy out clause has been known about for a year now, this is a 30 year old at the prime age for wanting that last big move and signing bonus, and yet there is no sign of him moving whatsoever. No links, no buzz, no rumours, nothing except people online saying we should move for him.

There has to be a reason.

He is second or third choice at those clubs, and they are yet to move on from higher priority targets.

fatherted1969

bucketybuck wrote: »

~Rebel~ wrote: »

Think his get-out clause that got activated this window is just 25m.

As little as I want to defend our inept board, it must be said that when you have a quality defender available for only £25m and none of the top clubs are seemingly interested, well occams razor would say that there is something else going on.

I don't know what that something else is but that buy out clause has been known about for a year now, this is a 30 year old at the prime age for wanting that last big move and signing bonus, and yet there is no sign of him moving whatsoever. No links, no buzz, no rumours, nothing except people online saying we should move for him.

There has to be a reason.

And not just utd either, no club seems to have tried to activate it. Liverpool could do with one alongside VVD, City too. Has to be more going on that we're not hearing

Father Hernandez

Pheonix10 wrote: »

Maguire is maybe the most unmarketable person around...

Paving companies will say different with that slab head

Drumpot

Mitch Connor wrote: »

We signed Matic with no likely profit on resale.

I’d say through gritted teeth, but wasn’t he 27 at least when we signed him?. How many players at that level has the club bought since the glazers were in charge? Sanchez and Van Persie, who else the last 10 years?

We don’t buy much proven talent, ready to improve the team immediately.

2009 - Valencia (sort of proven at Wigan )
2010 - None
2011 - Ashley young (proven , sort of at Aston villa)
2012 - van Persie (first real proven class for a long time)
2013 - Mata
2014 - Di Maria
2015 - schweinstager? Schneiderlain (at Southampton! !!!)
2016 - Pogba
2017 - lukaku and matic
2018 - Fred ?
2019 - ?

I mean you could argue that some of them where not proven at the highest level but were proven at far inferior clubs. Go back further and you find a similar pattern. We don’t buy like a super power and we don’t buy proven quality all that often.

I’d argue that if we look at players not at the wrong side of their careers that’s really only Van Persie, Mata , Di Maria , Pogba and matic being anywhere near the level of ambitions the club should be at in terms of its financial standing in the game. These should be the benchmark quality , not the exceptions. If the rumours about united being able to spend 300mil a season or thereabouts are true then united could easily match city for comparable quality signings but instead we get rojo, lindegard, bailly quality (circa half the price city spend on certain defenders)

Part of the problem is that while it appeals to us all that the club has a youth targeted transfer strategy, there is no functioning strategy. This means that more then likely the club does a kind of moneyball equation when calculating who to sign. It doesn’t need to do this but they get away with it by peddling horsesh*t like “Manchester United hired Jose to continue its long standing strategy of building Squads with youth”. (I have to believe nobody was gullible enough to buy that crap). United they prioritize younger players cause it’s cheaper in the long run and more expensive to buy proven quality. I suppose the fact that they have bought poorly is an issue but the solution is to maybe get more competent people in the player targeting department, not to default to just buying young players.

What do clubs comparative to united like Madrid or Barca do when they don’t win leagues or champions leagues? They super size their squads in ways that would shame any of our transfer seasons. United have the same kind of finances but because the owners have been so bad at spending money some fans want more frugal signings! Over a decade of under investment meant the glazers had more then enough for a few crazy spending seasons but we didn’t get that. Do Madrid or Barca fans marvel at many of our transfer windows? It’s so sad how resignedly beaten we are as a fan base that we keep lowering our expectations to make the owners bullsh*t reign palatable.

Drumpot

bucketybuck wrote: »

As little as I want to defend our inept board, it must be said that when you have a quality defender available for only £25m and none of the top clubs are seemingly interested, well occams razor would say that there is something else going on.

I don't know what that something else is but that buy out clause has been known about for a year now, this is a 30 year old at the prime age for wanting that last big move and signing bonus, and yet there is no sign of him moving whatsoever. No links, no buzz, no rumours, nothing except people online saying we should move for him.

There has to be a reason.

That is true, but why should any united fan give Woodward or the board any benefit of the doubt?

The truth is that we don’t know for certain who decides on transfers since SAF retired. We know players were scouted and signed without a managers input (except them accepting the signing). We know that managers insinuated strongly that they were frustrated with how the club conducted signings. That could mean that they seldom got their number one target, are we the biggest club in the world or not? I’m guessing managers got a shock at the true level of ambition of the owners when they finally got to work with them!!

Ockhams razor would also say that the one constant thing since SAF retired is Woodward and the owners being more involved in football matters. That would lead us to conclude that they are the single biggest problem to recruitment and players leaving.

DM_7

Drumpot wrote: »

I’d say he would cost circa 30 mil to buy. That’s 7 mil a year before wages/bonus over 4 years (or 135k per week). Just because united has been a disaster at buying players doesn’t make ever free player or expensive renewal a bad decision. How much did matic cost including transfer fee?

United’s policy of valuing players based off resale is a commercial decision. That has nothing to do with the first teams requirements. I don’t mind them building a young squad but experience like Alderweirald would be a welcome counter balance and some great experience for any already poor defence. Give one of the other crap center backs away for a few million. I’d be happy to see pretty much any cb flogged off to fund a hefty signing on fee.

Who United have sold on for profit since Ronaldo? If resale value is so important the list would be long yet I can't think of examples.

Drumpot

DM_7 wrote: »

Who United have sold on for profit since Ronaldo? If resale value is so important the list would be long yet I can't think of examples.

It’s because they have a sh*t , disjointed transfer policy. They don’t want to make poor signings, there is just no decent strategy so we end up with a squad of under performing players getting contract extensions. And we don’t have Daniel levy running the show, if they were serious about improving our footballing squad they might break the bank to try and get him. But they aren’t interested in having somebody who could challange them. They want one of their men in charge, no matter how unqualified.

They are terribly bad at running the footballing side of the club, but buying younger players and English (usually retain a value) usually increases chances that they will get something back on a signing.

Zeek12

Drumpot wrote: »

I’d say through gritted teeth, but wasn’t he 27 at least when we signed him?. How many players at that level has the club bought since the glazers were in charge? Sanchez and Van Persie, who else the last 10 years?

We don’t buy much proven talent, ready to improve the team immediately.

2009 - Valencia (sort of proven at Wigan )
2010 - None
2011 - Ashley young (proven , sort of at Aston villa)
2012 - van Persie (first real proven class for a long time)
2013 - Mata
2014 - Di Maria
2015 - schweinstager? Schneiderlain (at Southampton! !!!)
2016 - Pogba
2017 - lukaku and matic
2018 - Fred ?
2019 - ?

There may be a few missing off that list.

Fellaini was a proven Premier league performer.
The fact that some don't like his style and how he performs is another debate. But he arrived in his mid 20s with a proven level of performance in the PL.

Kagawa was a Bundesliga title winner when he joined us in 2012.

Mkhitaryan also arrived with a big reputation.

Darmian was Italy's first choice RB at the World Cup before signing. It hasn't worked out particularly well, but I don't believe it's because he arrived too early in his career

bucketybuck

Drumpot wrote: »

That is true, but why should any united fan give Woodward or the board any benefit of the doubt?

Because the point was that every other board in Europe seem to have the same opinion of Alderweirald?

To be honest you are straying into badman Woodward territory, where every little thing that happens is an excuse to go off on how useless the board are. And they are useless, we get it. But just because they are useless doesn't mean that every single little thing is their fault.

They haven't bought Alderweirald yet. But then nobody has, nobody seems interested, so forgive me if I withhold judgement on that particular point.

Annabella1

Pheonix10 wrote: »

Maguire is maybe the most unmarketable person around...

Exactly...we need a completely unmarketable no nonsense centre half who will be our captain going forward and take no ****e in the dressing room

PARlance

Wouldn't mind someone umarkable on the right while we are at it.

0gac3yjefb5sv7

Annabella1 wrote: »

Exactly...we need a completely unmarketable no nonsense centre half who will be our captain going forward and take no ****e in the dressing room

Not disagreeing. Just someone said it was Woodward's fault to sign Maguire as he was marketable....

DM_7

Drumpot wrote: »

It’s because they have a sh*t , disjointed transfer policy. They don’t want to make poor signings, there is just no decent strategy so we end up with a squad of under performing players getting contract extensions. And we don’t have Daniel levy running the show, if they were serious about improving our footballing squad they might break the bank to try and get him. But they aren’t interested in having somebody who could challange them. They want one of their men in charge, no matter how unqualified.

They are terribly bad at running the footballing side of the club, but buying younger players and English (usually retain a value) usually increases chances that they will get something back on a signing.

Nope, it is because resale value is not a high priority. If it was you would have more than a rant to prove it.

bucketybuck

Mitch Connor wrote: »

He is second or third choice at those clubs, and they are yet to move on from higher priority targets.

Thats not enough of a reason for me.

Take last summer for example, when it was common knowledge that Alderweiralds contract was either going to expire June 19, or be extended with a £25m release clause.

We have seen many examples of clubs making bids for players in that situation, hoping to pick up a top player for good value while the selling club gets some revenue from a player close to leaving for nothing. But how many serious bids were reported for him?

Then the option is taken up around christmas, he is again approaching the last year of his contract and now the £25m clause is there to make it simple. How many bids?

He is having a good season so the form is still there. He is approaching 30 so there is the "one last big payout" factor. Top defenders are desperately thin on the ground, pretty much every top club I can think of could make improvements in central defense, he would easily improve 10/20 of Europes top clubs. How many bids publicized for Alderweirald?

We have all been around long enough to know how these things usually go, but where are the links? Where are the subtle hints from his agent? Its media silence in an era when the media don't ever shut their mouths and it all seems very odd to me.

0gac3yjefb5sv7

bucketybuck wrote: »

Thats not enough of a reason for me.

Take last summer for example, when it was common knowledge that Alderweiralds contract was either going to expire June 19, or be extended with a £25m release clause.

We have seen many examples of clubs making bids for players in that situation, hoping to pick up a top player for good value while the selling club gets some revenue from a player close to leaving for nothing. But how many serious bids were reported for him?

Then the option is taken up around christmas, he is again approaching the last year of his contract and now the £25m clause is there to make it simple. How many bids?

He is having a good season so the form is still there. He is approaching 30 so there is the "one last big payout" factor. Top defenders are desperately thin on the ground, pretty much every top club I can think of could make improvements in central defense, he would easily improve 10/20 of Europes top clubs. How many bids publicized for Alderweirald?

We have all been around long enough to know how these things usually go, but where are the links? Where are the subtle hints from his agent? Its media silence in an era when the media don't ever shut their mouths and it all seems very odd to me.

Maybe he doesn't have a release clause?

Drumpot

Zeek12 wrote: »

There may be a few missing off that list.

Fellaini was a proven Premier league performer.
The fact that some don't like his style and how he performs is another debate. But he arrived in his mid 20s with a proven level of performance in the PL.

Kagawa was a Bundesliga title winner when he joined us in 2012.

Mkhitaryan also arrived with a big reputation.

Darmian was Italy's first choice RB at the World Cup before joining us. It hasn't worked out particularly well, but I don't believe it's because he arrived too early in his career

Proven at what level?

Fellaini was considered a signing of how unambitous the club was and unfair as he was treated IMO, he wasn’t considered proven at the level we would be expecting. Never a man united player was I believe the thing often thrown at him.

Kagawa could just as easily been a PR stunt for our Asian market, although he did come with reasonable expectations to be fair. Miki was a punt that didn’t pay off but again like Kagawa came with reasonable expectations, not sure I’d say proven talent at the top level to be honest. Neither was darmian, playing for Italy at a time when they weren’t particularly any good.

But i would argue that there was a strong chance these weren’t necessarily our best alternatives who were more expensive. It’s hindsight of course to say they were a failure but since nobody knows how the decision was arrived to sign the players we don’t know what was the defining factor.

There is not even anecdotal evidence that united signs it’s top targets most seasons. For every reasoning people decide to apply to how Woodward deserves the benefit of the doubt there is a just as plausible counter reason, neither of which are verifiable. It’s a case of looking when the club is and asking how they could be in such a bad state after spending so much. Surely the people signing off on signings and transfer policy are fair game after 7 years of relative failure?

Drumpot

bucketybuck wrote: »

Because the point was that every other board in Europe seem to have the same opinion of Alderweirald?

To be honest you are straying into badman Woodward territory, where every little thing that happens is an excuse to go off on how useless the board are. And they are useless, we get it. But just because they are useless doesn't mean that every single little thing is their fault.

They haven't bought Alderweirald yet. But then nobody has, nobody seems interested, so forgive me if I withhold judgement on that particular point.

We have 7 years to appraise Woodward, what has he done that leads you to believe anything remotely positive about him on the footballing side of things? Several managers have now singled him out, As has Neville. Just because they keep Woodwards role secret doesn’t mean he doesn’t have a massive influence on things.There is plenty of innuendo to suggest that he’s botched transfers, over paid, not gotten top targets , not gotten manager targets and appears to make footballing decisions That he’s clearly not qualified to make. And the owners are ok with this, why?

Forget alderweirald, why isn’t Woodward a “bad man” in your eyes? If somebody is consistently under performing in their job and there is literally not one positive thing you can point to that suggests otherwise, why would you give him the benefit of the doubt on anything? I don’t think he’s toxic because they prob won’t buy one player it’s because along with the owners he’s the single most important constant at the club that hasn’t changed since SAF retired.

Maybe he is a stooge and it’s the owners who are the problem but he’s carrying out their orders, so he deserves no trust from anybody. I welcome Any football decision at the club cautiously and with cynicism.

Jurgen The German

pjohnson wrote: »

We have a new Dave. He doesn't take shít.

Tbh even though its only a handful of posts I much prefer new Dave already.

Drumpot

DM_7 wrote: »

Nope, it is because resale value is not a high priority..

And you know this how?

I’m not sure anybody has managed to make sense of United’s transfer policy, the only question seems to be you either give Woodward/glazers the Benefit of the doubt For some reason or you look at his and the owners primary expertise and reason for owning the club and weigh up what is more likely.

I’m not saying all players are bought for resale value but that there is a very different way that the owners weigh up who to buy then what fans think. It would go along way to explaining why the team has never been even remotely close enough for a consistent period of time.

Trigger

Drumpot

astradave wrote: »

Join me on the grumpy old man step Dave. You won’t get any thanks , won’t be popular , it will be joyless and you will probably argue with everybody. But you can do it with me...

Jurgen The German

astradave wrote: »

And with shyt posting like this I know I'm right.

:pac:

pjohnson

astradave wrote: »

Trigger

I think it's time for a name change

pjohnson

astradave wrote: »

I think it's time for a name change

AstraMick?

PARlance

pjohnson wrote: »

AstraMick?

AstraRomero has a nice ring to it, and reflects his newfound position.

[Deleted User]

pjohnson wrote: »

AstraMick?

I'd be careful, imagine astramick thanking posts. Boards would melt

[Deleted User]

Mitch Connor wrote: »

Where was the marketing push and jump behind Dalot? Bailly? Lindelof? Fred? Mkhitaryan? Rojo? Schneiderlin? Darmian? Matic? James?

The **** has that got to do with Ole and my point :P