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Donald Trump Presidency discussion Thread VI

Quin_Dub

The continuing discussion of the Donald Trump Presidency.

Keep it civil and please note the charter before posting

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StringerBell

Sean.3516 wrote: »

MrFresh wrote: »

By what metric?

Morality

Without doubt this is going to be post of the thread. Without doubt! Well done sir

pixelburp

Kimsang wrote: »

Ok let's move away from Carlson, this seems a point of contention (obviously the fox news link), i understand the guilt by association 'vibe'.
I think not providing evidence is telling though.

I'm not going to hunt for YouTube clips and excerpts to back up a scarcely outrageous theorising that Tucker Carlson gets paid to play the angry, "you can't say merry Christmas anymore" style bunker conservative. Carlson, Ingram and, fadó, O'Reilly play characters for Fox. Screaming "evidence!" to back up an opinion of a man's character doesn't wash. I'm not playing that game. Carlson is not a thinker, he is however a very rich man thanks to "opinion" entertainment he headlines. We can leave it at that.

Could we more specifically talk about Roger Scruton? Is he a professional contrarian? Is he a troll who intentionally presents argument as outrage? is he Eamonn Dunphy/Piers Morgan?

Go ahead. He has nothing to do with the conversation at hand, but we've been here before when you move the goalposts.

hotmail.com

Eric Cartman wrote: »

Bernie Sanders and AOC are by US standards extreme left, but even by european standards they'd be center-left / moderate left.

Mainstream Democrats are not left wing. This is the point.

Irish people constantly referring to the left in America is just so daft.

RickBlaine

Rjd2 wrote: »

If Trump or a male Dem wins in 2020 then yeah its quite possible the first female president will be a republican. Hailey will be the 2024 candidate for the republicans and its a two party country.

I don't know who this Hailey person is so I Googled the name. The first result is Justin Bieber's wife. I initially discounted that but given the state of American politics at the moment, who knows.

Igotadose

RickBlaine wrote: »

I don't know who this Hailey person is so I Googled the name. The first result is Justin Bieber's wife. I initially discounted that but given the state of American politics at the moment, who knows.

Nikki Haley ex-UN ambassador. 2024 is a long time from now, who knows.

Might even be SHS the Republican nominee in 2024.

Professor Moriarty

RickBlaine wrote: »

I don't know who this Hailey person is so I Googled the name. The first result is Justin Bieber's wife. I initially discounted that but given the state of American politics at the moment, who knows.

You can get Joe Rogan at 200/1 for 2020. Joe Rogan.

Igotadose

Sean.3516 wrote: »

Morality

Uh. By what definition of Morality, was Carter worse than Trump?

dr.fuzzenstein

Igotadose wrote: »

Uh. By what definition of Morality, was Carter worse than Trump?

Presumably because he's a democrat. That was pretty much the sole measure that poster was interested in.

Timberrrrrrrr

Just seen this post om another thread

Say my name wrote: »

Europe has brought in a trading system to circumvent the US sanctions on Iran.
The price of oil dropped on the announcement of this.

https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2019-06-28/trump-unleash-hell-europe-after-eu-says-spv-circumvent-swift-and-iran-sanctions-now

One wonders what will happen now especially with Trumps recent claim of "special relationship" with the UK.

PropJoe10

Once again, a big win for Kim. Trump going to visit him in his own country with no equivocations. It pays to be a brutal dictator these days, it appears.

Igotadose

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

Presumably because he's a democrat. That was pretty much the sole measure that poster was interested in.

Yet, Clinton wasn't on his list. Ah well, another WUM. I did agree with one poitn, James Buchanan was a pretty awful President.

dr.fuzzenstein

Igotadose wrote: »

Yet, Clinton wasn't on his list. Ah well, another WUM. I did agree with one poitn, James Buchanan was a pretty awful President.

A mere oversight, I'm sure.

Igotadose

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

One wonders what will happen now especially with Trumps recent claim of "special relationship" with the UK.

I think the discussion of the USD being called into question as the world's reserve currency is pretty important. Trump's accelerating that with his wild actions. Fareed Zakaria of CNN has been talking about this recently, though it came up in this article a year ago: https://qz.com/1403708/donald-trumps-foreign-policy-is-putting-the-dollar-at-risk/

dr.fuzzenstein

Igotadose wrote: »

I think the discussion of the USD being called into question as the world's reserve currency is pretty important. Trump's accelerating that with his wild actions. Fareed Zakaria of CNN has been talking about this recently, though it came up in this article a year ago: https://qz.com/1403708/donald-trumps-foreign-policy-is-putting-the-dollar-at-risk/

That is wildly interesting.
I love this link in that article
https://qz.com/1401690/unga-can-the-eu-china-and-russia-beat-us-sanctions-on-iran-with-a-special-slush-fund/

I think it is important that the EU, Russia and China work together against the US more closely. Because the US have demonstrated that they are no longer a reliable ally or trading partner.
I don't say this because I am a great fan of either country, far from it, but because the US, especially if Delirium Tremens wins another term, HAS to be sidelined and shown that they may be a big, powerful bully, but the rest of the world can give them a painful black eye nevertheless.
The US has to be shown the consequences of insularism and nationalism and that they are no longer the only big, bad wolf in the woods.
And then they can choose. Should they insulate themselves more and more and become a rogue state or should they start playing nice again.
And this must happen under Donald's command. Enough people will see sense.
Of course his core voters (hillbillies, racists and the far right) would follow him into a volcano if he said so, so let's hope they do just that.
As with any dictator, it looks like they have unshakable, 100% loyal support right until the end, but the big bang at the end is inevitable.
And suddenly you won't find a single Trump supporter in the US. Just like Germany, after the war there wasn't a single Nazi to be found.

Leroy42

I find it quite telling the fairly muted response to the historic meeting of Trump and KJU in NK.

Gone is the breathless reporting of the 1st summit, the immediate calls for Noble prizes and the exhalting of Trump across the media.

IMO it was a significant step, I hope that it ultimately succeeds as a change in NK benefits everyone. But clearly people are wise to Trump and the style over substance that he follows.

This is being seen as a simple PR exercise. Something Trump can claim as being great without actually having achieved much. It gets the talks restarted, which is good, but they only broke down because Trump was unprepared in Hanoi.

And of course it is a massive coup for KJU. He has achieved what he dad never did and it totally vindicates they policy of obtaining nuclear weapons even if that meant the hunger of millions.

Iran will have watched this very closely and it is clear that the way to get Trump to work with you is the fear of nuclear. Trump doesn't deal in rational of reason or long running diplomacy.

So whilst I applaud Trump for this, no matter what the motives behind it may have been, I think anyone who believes in MAGA must be extremely concerned with how Trump is reducing the USAs power across the globe.

Igotadose

Leroy42 wrote: »

I find it quite telling the fairly muted response to the historic meeting of Trump and KJU in NK.

Gone is the breathless reporting of the 1st summit, the immediate calls for Noble prizes and the exhalting of Trump across the media.

IMO it was a significant step, I hope that it ultimately succeeds as a change in NK benefits everyone. But clearly people are wise to Trump and the style over substance that he follows.

This is being seen as a simple PR exercise. Something Trump can claim as being great without actually having achieved much. It gets the talks restarted, which is good, but they only broke down because Trump was unprepared in Hanoi.

And of course it is a massive coup for KJU. He has achieved what he dad never did and it totally vindicates they policy of obtaining nuclear weapons even if that meant the hunger of millions.

Iran will have watched this very closely and it is clear that the way to get Trump to work with you is the fear of nuclear. Trump doesn't deal in rational of reason or long running diplomacy.

So whilst I applaud Trump for this, no matter what the motives behind it may have been, I think anyone who believes in MAGA must be extremely concerned with how Trump is reducing the USAs power across the globe.

Agree with most of your points, especially about the coup for KJU. However, those that believe in MAGA haven't shown themselves to be concerned about much of anything, other than personal direct profit at anyone's expense. And, long term thinking doesn't seem to be their strong suit.

Looking back, this might eventually actually reflect well on Trump; maybe it'll make the Chinese happy and that in turn helps defuse the trade issues. It'll take years to tell, however.

12gauge dave

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

Jesus Tapdancing Christ, I sometimes wonder if I've slipped into some fcuked up parallel dimension at some point, or maybe something fell on my head and I'm in a coma.
Because there is no way that this is reality, I refuse to believe that any person on the face of this planet would seriously consider Ivanka as President. This is fcuked up beyond belief. If this happens I will become an evil genius and build a Doomsday machine.

As for your last point. This is a bugbear of mine.
People have been saying "I voted Trump because of PC nonsense/SJWs/feminists/eco nuts.
If you vote Trump because you think that being polite/socially aware/not racist/concerned about the planet is somehow the fault of "the left", it's not my problem.
It is absolutely no fault of mine if you are an asshole.

Calling trumps voters assholes and getting 10 "thanks" says alot about the clientele in this thread.

weisses

12gauge dave wrote: »

Calling trumps voters assholes and getting 10 "thanks" says alot about the clientele in this thread.

Did he say all Trump voters are assholes ?

everlast75

12gauge dave wrote: »

Calling trumps voters assholes and getting 10 "thanks" says alot about the clientele in this thread.

He said a lot in his post. Perhaps those thanks were for his first point?

And by the way, any interview I've seen of anyone at his rallies, any contributor I've seen on TV in support of Trump, any politician in the US who defends him, such as Jordan, Gaetz, Nunes or Graham, or his staff such as Conway, Sanders, Spicer or "The Mooch", I could comfortably call them many many things, such as liar, fraud, ignoramus, spiteful, cruel, and some of them absolutely an a-hole, and not for moment miss a beat as they are well deserved and based not on their party affiliation, but purely and factually on *their* conduct.

Incidentally, sensitivity to name calling from Trump supporters is hilarious, given the fact that apparently "liberals are snowflakes".

greenfield21

Does no one here really see Trump's ideas, policies etc. gaining further support as time goes on?I don't want to get into the details of immigration and global trade among other topics but there is definitely alot more discussion now and it looks like those topics aren't going to disappear whether Trump's in power or not.

ancapailldorcha

greenfield21 wrote: »

Does no one here really see Trump's ideas, policies etc. gaining further support as time goes on?I don't want to get into the details of immigration and global trade among other topics but there is definitely alot more discussion now and it looks like those topics aren't going to disappear whether Trump's in power or not.

I don't to be honest. Trumpism is effectively a cult of personality and that personality is constrained to two presidential terms. It's possible that Trump may groom a successor but whether or not that individual will have the same appeal remains to be seen.

I think time will show that Trump's approach will not solve any problems long term. Denying climate change and frustrating states' attempts to tackle it will merely exacerbate the situation which will in turn have a knock-on effect on migration. Without bold action on climate change worldwide then we're going to see a lot more mass migration as people abandon their desolate holdings and move to pastures new.

Trump has shown no indication whatsoever that he's even thought about this at all. Instead, he denies climate change and postures for his faithful supporters. When Trumpism fails to show results it will begin to wither and die. The best we can hope for is that the succeeding ideology is more progressive both in terms of addressing migration and climate change as well as tackling inequality in the US.

Water John

The pen is mightier than the sword. Ivanka has done herself a lot of damage. When the're laughing at you, you're in trouble.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/jul/01/unwantedivanka-awkward-moment-at-g20-prompts-slew-of-trump-parodies

everlast75

greenfield21 wrote: »

Does no one here really see Trump's ideas, policies etc. gaining further support as time goes on?I don't want to get into the details of immigration and global trade among other topics but there is definitely alot more discussion now and it looks like those topics aren't going to disappear whether Trump's in power or not.

I think the worrying thing from Trump's perspective is that he isn't winning over any mew supporters. Yes, his "base" remain but he isn't converting anyone over to his side. Truth be told, he is losing supporters due to the dumpster fire administration and it's handling of even the most basic of things.

Quin_Dub

everlast75 wrote: »

I think the worrying thing from Trump's perspective is that he isn't winning over any mew supporters. Yes, his "base" remain but he isn't converting anyone over to his side. Truth be told, he is losing supporters due to the dumpster fire administration and it's handling of even the most basic of things.

This is the biggest challenge for him.

His win was razor thin across a few states and a not insignificant % of his support came from the "Anyone But Hillary" camp.

I'm not sure that any of the current potential Dem candidates would generate the same level of "anti-Support" as HRC.

Some may stay at home , some may vote for the Dem candidate (if they choose a moderate).

Either way , he is utterly reliant on maximising turn-out from a finite pool of voters so he will continue to ramp up the feverish invective to energise those elements of his base. It's his only chance.

"Open Borders!!!"
"Abortion for all!!!"
"Take away your guns!!!"
etc. etc. etc.

Midlife

Igotadose wrote: »

I think the discussion of the USD being called into question as the world's reserve currency is pretty important. Trump's accelerating that with his wild actions. Fareed Zakaria of CNN has been talking about this recently, though it came up in this article a year ago: https://qz.com/1403708/donald-trumps-foreign-policy-is-putting-the-dollar-at-risk/

This could be very important if it plays out.

The advantage to the US of dollars being the global currency is what 'leader of the free world' actually brings.

IMO, it's not entirely irrelevant that the first nation to switch oil sales to euros over dollars was Iraq, right before they were invaded and it was switched back by the newly installed government.

Aside from simply the world trading in dollars, what Trump and his suppporters don't at seem to appreciate, or are happy to ignore, is the soft power that makes the US what it is globally.

Reducing America's stance in the world by implementing isolationist MAGA policies or by simply being really really annoying and untrustworthy will have a significant impact on the future of the US.

Penn

everlast75 wrote: »

I think the worrying thing from Trump's perspective is that he isn't winning over any mew supporters. Yes, his "base" remain but he isn't converting anyone over to his side. Truth be told, he is losing supporters due to the dumpster fire administration and it's handling of even the most basic of things.

I agree. I think he's definitely been losing more supporters than he's gained, and even though his supporters are pretty much being even more fervent in their support for him, he might be unlikely to gain any more going forward.

The question is however, will he lose supporters in the places where it matters, and what lengths will Trump and the GOP go to in order to make sure he doesn't. The latter is the most worrying thing.

pixelburp

Quin_Dub wrote: »

).

Either way , he is utterly reliant on maximising turn-out from a finite pool of voters so he will continue to ramp up the feverish invective to energise those elements of his base. It's his only chance.

"Open Borders!!!"
"Abortion for all!!!"
"Take away your guns!!!"
etc. etc. etc.

If you listen to his most recent rallies, this is precisely the rhetoric being used, if not even more extreme. The hyperbole re. abortion has gone from "abortions for all" to "they rip full term babies out the womb and kill them". I'd have to dig out the speeches but Trump is making these noises. There's obviously a feeling the argument is being lost on giving even limited abortion services, so Reps have ramped up the emotional elements, using outright scare tactics

As is being said, Trump isn't gaining support, so he's just doubling down on the histrionics his dwindling base will support. 2020 then becomes how the Democrats mobilised the disenfranchised on both sides. I guess this is why they're terrified about a non-centrist candidate, that they're hoping to bring disillusioned Reps to their side?

Quin_Dub

pixelburp wrote: »

If you listen to his most recent rallies, this is precisely the rhetoric being used, if not even more extreme. The hyperbole re. abortion has gone from "abortions for all" to "they rip full term babies out the womb and kill them". I'd have to dig out the speeches but Trump is making these noises. There's obviously a feeling the argument is being lost on giving even limited abortion services, so Reps have ramped up the emotional elements, using outright scare tactics

As is being said, Trump isn't gaining support, so he's just doubling down on the histrionics his dwindling base will support. 2020 then becomes how the Democrats mobilised the disenfranchised on both sides. I guess this is why they're terrified about a non-centrist candidate, that they're hoping to bring disillusioned Reps to their side?

Absolutely - They are terrified of influencing the "Hold your nose" Trump voters.

They either want them to stay at home or maybe even vote DEM , but if there is a "far-left" Dem candidate, then there is a high risk that those moderate GOP voters will be energised to vote to ensure that a GOP candidate gets in.

amandstu

Did Trump not say about N.Korea that they would not get nuclear weapons ("trust me ,it won't happen" or words to that effect )?

Does anyone remember that or can find a ref?

Not saying that we shouldn't try to support his efforts re N.Korea but that would have been a self serving thing to say and, viewed the enormity of the situation quite unforgivable to give false hope as we now see it.

Leroy42

To restate a point a made previously, surely this is just another example that Iran need to get their hands on a nuclear weapon. US, and Trump have proven that without one they will simply push you around, chop up any previous agreements and simply go with whatever they feel like at the time.

BTW, I am not advocating Iran getting nuclear weapons, just that they really have no reason not to look to get those weapons.