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Is Brexit Britain a third world country?

Balanadan

Whatever about the crackpot, tinpot policians, the country itself has really been going backwards for a number of years now.

Their border control is outdated, not recognising passport cards with biometric chips. Amazing really when you consider the importance they place upon border control in discussions on Brexit. It is an absolute pain in the hole to fly through/into the UK from EUrope unless you're coming from Ireland under the CTA.

Businesses and restaurants are closing down left, right and centre. City centres, town centres, and even parts of Central London are deserted. A few years back you'd struggle to get into some restaurants on a weekend evening without a reservation, and even with one, you'd be put under pressure to finish with the table. These days many of those same restaurants are half empty or closed.

I recently stayed in a new luxury hotel which was like something you might expect in an isolated third-world country. The check-in experience resembled a bad day in Fawlty Towers, two of the three lifts didn't work, the lighting in the room was so poor you'd wonder did they run out of money for light fixtures, there was a constant hum from the plumbing in the bathroom, and there were food shortages at breakfast.

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[Deleted User]

Grayson wrote: »

I believe the UK has the worst income inequality in the EU. When you see what's happened to towns, especially in the midlands and north, it's scary. There's huge swathes of the country outside London that have very little going for them. And in London the inequality is generational. Younger generations have very little hope if purchasing homes in one of the most expensive cities in the world.

That just proves it's all the EU's fault. When they leave the EU they'll get back to those halcyon days of the 'Hunger marches' of the 1930s, and all those glorious times of TB, high child mortality rates and even starvation. I recall reading once about the reflections of a newly qualified English gp. He was speaking about being in a house in 1934 and being repulsed when he saw the wallpaper move because there were so many bugs underneath. Actually, his reflection is here.

The really astonishing history lesson from the Great Depression in Britain is that even in the 1930s the more modernised, consumer-orientated southern England actually boomed, while the north and older industrial regions declined enormously (they recovered temporarily in the late 1930s when the old shipbuilding etc skills were used for rearmament). That divide has been in England a long, long time but with the dishonesty of Brexit ignorant people have been led (by media and people from the south like Nigel Farage and Boris Johnson) to scapegoat the EU for it. It's always the "bloody foreigners" to blame.

PS: You're correct that the UK is at the top of promoting intergenerational inequality, but I fear intergenerational inequality is a feature of the wider capitalist world unless governments change their tax policies.

Danzy

topper75 wrote: »

Are potential investors attracted to a migrant free-for-all? I should have thought they would be keener to look at a country that had full legal control over WHICH migrants get in.

Blaming broken hotel lifts on a trading block disengagement that hasn't even happened yet is a logic jump that has left me behind I'm afraid.

The more liberal approach to migration and refugees over the last 30 years is purely down to the success of Thatcher and Reaganism.

It is part of that.

A left leaning society or one with regulated capitalism would have to control who came in, to maintain.

rgmmg

Balanadan wrote: »

Whatever about the crackpot, tinpot policians, the country itself has really been going backwards for a number of years now.

Their border control is outdated, not recognising passport cards with biometric chips.

A little over the top, isn't it?

Last time I went through Dublin Airport (having got a bus out in the absence of a train service), I had to check in via Terminal 2 to get to Terminal 1 and it appears to be the only airport in the world that doesn't (no longer) offers a family lane. Backwards indeed..

If you look for fault in something, you'll find it. Brexit will be a mess but don't be so simplistic.

Yurt2

Berserker wrote: »

Social welfare here is incredibly generous in comparison to the US or UK.

https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php/Government_expenditure_on_social_protection

Wompa1

rgmmg wrote: »

A little over the top, isn't it?

Last time I went through Dublin Airport (having got a bus out in the absence of a train service), I had to check in via Terminal 2 to get to Terminal 1 and it appears to be the only airport in the world that doesn't (no longer) offers a family lane. Backwards indeed..

If you look for fault in something, you'll find it. Brexit will be a mess but don't be so simplistic.

Airports have a family line!? Have yet to experience that and have travelled a lot within the US, Asia and a couple of flights in Europe including Luton over the last 3 years. The only airport that actually gave us extra assistant was in Thailand.

ohnonotgmail

Yurt! wrote: »

https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php/Government_expenditure_on_social_protection

I know which country i would rather be on the dole in and it isn't the UK.

The Tetrarch

That depends on the deal the UK gets when they leave the EU.
The EU are fed up with the situation and I think are not in the mood to make concessions.
Now they are being asked to watch as Boris and the Tories have a bun fight.

[Deleted User]

I think people struggle to comprehend what a third world country actually is.

cgcsb

Aegir wrote: »

I think people struggle to comprehend what a third world country actually is.

Indeed, calling it in that is quite an exaggeration. To be fair though I wouldn't consider the USA to be too far off the 3rd world badge, and the UK seems determined to follow it's lead.

[Deleted User]

cgcsb wrote: »

Indeed, calling it in that is quite an exaggeration. To be fair though I wouldn't consider the USA to be too far off the 3rd world badge, and the UK seems determined to follow it's lead.

the US is a million light years from being a third world country.

steddyeddy

Aegir wrote: »

the US is a million light years from being a third world country.

Not unless you count areas like healthcare. Some regions of the US still have the black death.

cgcsb

Aegir wrote: »

the US is a million light years from being a third world country.

I dunno, it's certainly a lot more violent and dangerous than most of Asia and Africa. I'd feel safer in India to be honest. You also have a similar socio-economic set up in the US as in much of the third world, small pockets of extreme wealth and vast swathes of poverty. No social mobility at all, access to health and education is purely down to what you can pay/what connections you have.

[Deleted User]

steddyeddy wrote: »

Not unless you count areas like healthcare. Some regions of the US still have the black death.

People aren't dieing from it though, because they have a good health care system in place.

cgcsb wrote: »

I dunno, it's certainly a lot more violent and dangerous than most of Asia and Africa. I'd feel safer in India to be honest. You also have a similar socio-economic set up in the US as in much of the third world, small pockets of extreme wealth and vast swathes of poverty. No social mobility at all, access to health and education is purely down to what you can pay/what connections you have.

you've clearly never been to the US, or India.

cycling is fun

AllForIt wrote: »

I was wondering that too. I'd like to move there away from the hustle and bustle of of the rest of the city but yet have London city on my doorstep.

he may be talking about parts of Pimlico its not deserted its mostly residential its central London but its very quiet

cgcsb

Aegir wrote: »

People aren't dieing from it though, because they have a good health care system in place.

I don't think that's an accurate comment.

Aegir wrote: »

you've clearly never been to the US, or India.

I've been to both. If you go to Las Vegas and wander just a little bit from the main strip, you won't be long about turning back. Same in Miami. LA, the second biggest city, is very much like Africa, it has 'tent cities' are similar to the huts outside Addis Ababa. San Fran is sort of an island of normality, but even SF has pop up tent cities and rampant poverty. New York and the North East are sort of normal though on a day to day basis. Most of the country is very violent, drug addiction and mental health issues are widespread, everyone is armed to the teeth, especially those off their tits on drugs.

[Deleted User]

cgcsb wrote: »

I don't think that's an accurate comment.

yes, it is.

cgcsb wrote: »

I've been to both. If you go to Las Vegas and wander just a little bit from the main strip, you won't be long about turning back. Same in Miami. LA, the second biggest city, is very much like Africa, it has 'tent cities' are similar to the huts outside Addis Ababa. San Fran is sort of an island of normality, but even SF has pop up tent cities and rampant poverty. New York and the North East are sort of normal though on a day to day basis. Most of the country is very violent, drug addiction and mental health issues are widespread, everyone is armed to the teeth, especially those off their tits on drugs.

so much like Dublin then.

ohnonotgmail

Aegir wrote: »

People aren't dieing from it though, because they have a good health care system in place.

Some are. Not every year mind but surely even 1 death from bubonic plague is not a good image for one of the most developed countries in the world.

Cina

Aegir wrote: »

yes, it is.

so much like Dublin then.

The US is far from a third world country like he says (by all metrics it's a very developed country) but if you think Dublin is comparable to most big US cities then you've obviously never been to them!

cgcsb

Aegir wrote: »

so much like Dublin then.

Lol, no nothing like that. If half of Dublin's population was prescribed opioids and given a semi automatic weapon, we'd be talking.

[Deleted User]

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

Some are. Not every year mind but surely even 1 death from bubonic plague is not a good image for one of the developed countries in the world.

short of culling all the wildlife over some pretty vast areas, I'm not sure how you wipe it out entirely.

Cina wrote: »

The US is far from a third world country like he says (by all metrics it's a very developed country) but if you think Dublin is comparable to most big US cities then you've obviously never been to them!

I was being facetious.

I think cgsb has been watching too many Marvel movies.

topper75

JJJackal wrote: »

What if the investors come from countries where alot of the migrants come from

Then they can be let in. And Brussels will have no say in it. UK will decide the criteria.
Brexit is merely leaving the EU. It is not a total migrant block.
You don't have to be an old fart to be aware that there was life before 1973 and that immigrants may have been allowed into Britain before that date.

ohnonotgmail

Aegir wrote: »

short of culling all the wildlife over some pretty vast areas, I'm not sure how you wipe it out entirely.

we seem to have managed it in europe. and i was mostly responding to your claim that nobody there dies from it because of their health care system. They do die from it. and they have an excellent health care system if you can afford to pay for it.

steddyeddy

Aegir wrote: »

People aren't dieing from it though, because they have a good health care system in place.

you've clearly never been to the US, or India.

Of course they're dying from it. The American system is appalling. I work in the US part of the time. You'll see people walking around with treatable illnesses because they can't afford healthcare. Even well off people become bankrupt after healthcare.

Valhallapt

A defining trait of most third world countries is inequality. UK inequality is some of the worse I’ve seen anywhere, whole towns of hopeless poverty then 5 miles down the road for leafy, plush quaint villages.

Brexit is a symptom of this inequality.

Is it third world? No. Is is the type of country Ireland should aspire to be more like? No.

Northern Ireland is one of the poorest parts of Northern Europe, they hide it well though, generally tidy well keep public spaces, a veneer of quality on their public services, the seem to tell themselves that they have it alright. But if you go though any comparable town in Poland/Latvia/Lithuania they people will have more disposable income in their pockets and more coffee shops/ restaurants in which to spend it, that’s true freedom. Economic freedom is a trait of first world countries.

The most scary part of all this, is that it appears as Ireland’s pace of growing inequality is picking up, we’re becoming a more unequal society...

DEFTLEFTHAND

Valhallapt wrote: »

A defining trait of most third world countries is inequality. UK inequality is some of the worse I’ve seen anywhere, whole towns of hopeless poverty then 5 miles down the road for leafy, plush quaint villages.

Brexit is a symptom of this inequality.

Is it third world? No. Is is the type of country Ireland should aspire to be more like? No.

Northern Ireland is one of the poorest parts of Northern Europe, they hide it well though, generally tidy well keep public spaces, a veneer of quality on their public services, the seem to tell themselves that they have it alright. But if you go though any comparable town in Poland/Latvia/Lithuania they people will have more disposable income in their pockets and more coffee shops/ restaurants in which to spend it, that’s true freedom. Economic freedom is a trait of first world countries.

The most scary part of all this, is that it appears as Ireland’s pace of growing inequality is picking up, we’re becoming a more unequal society...

They've achieved their Economic freedom.

They'll be fine going forward. Us, I'm not too sure about.

Capt'n Midnight

Danzy wrote: »

Britain is just the EU with good growth and kow unemployment.

Brexit hasn't happened yet and they can call it off at anytime.
Even so UK growth has slowed down since Brexit was announced.

In the long term it's cheaper to invest in new tech than in more workers. because productivity per worker goes up.
But since Brexit was announced investment in factories has fallen through the floor. Because it's cheaper to hire more short term workers because there's no capital investment tied up in them.

This is why they UK has low unemployment at the moment.

Many years ago Samsung setup a factory in Wales. The locals were shocked to find out it was because they were cheaper than Korean workers. Not third world but slipping a few places in the rankings.

mfceiling

Still never found out the hotel that was falling apart and had food shortages.

It was a Hilton...Not narrowed down to the specific one though.

lawred2

Sister lives over there and I don't get the impression from her of a deserted London with all sorts of businesses shutting down

However this Brexit can't be consequence free. If they are not in the midst of destroying their economy they soon will be

kowloon

Harry Palmr wrote: »

I expect a lot of money is being held back as businesses fear a meltdown post Brexit, thus creating the environment for a meltdown!

There's definitely a risk of a self fufilling prophecy situation.

I used to live south of London, I've been back to visit friends and not much has changed. Some jobs have been lost here and there.

cdgalwegian

That's one confusing thread title: Brexit hasn't happened, and 'third world' is so anachronistic. Interesting posts though. The OP's starting point is extremely narrow though, as other posters have pointed out.
What drew me to thread was the fact that I constantly say/bemoan that I think Ireland is a third world country (without referring to the anachronism of course).
I lived for a lot of years in London and Essex, and from keeping an eye on events there, and talking to Britons, 'imperial prestige', to use Fuaranach's expression, is 'wot won it', to use a Sun headline of old. Despite claims of media manipulation, the Britons that voted to Leave considered the high cost of Leaving to be worth it, to gain independence. Independence, of course, with the nonsense notion of easy deals. This was where the real manipulation, and naievity, occurred. If Brexit does go ahead, then 'true' independence will require a no-deal exit, which if it occurs, well.....ask a hundred economists, and you'll get a hundred different answers, as they say.
Britain is an economic dynamo, with decent enough social safety nets, but in addition, and more importantly, it is very flexible. A no-deal Brexit would be very tough going (obviously), especially as trade deals take a long time to be hammered out, but in the long run, it should get what most sensible no voters envisaged; a trade-off of lower living standards for full independence.