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Chapter 2 - Finding Nemo

Swashbuckler

2018 - Chapter One: The Day That Never Comes - Post 1 to 634

2019 - Chapter Two: Finding Nemo - Post 635 onwards

Original Post:
I've decided to set up one of these in the hope that every now and then someone will come along and in their good nature, answer one of my many questions about my training. I find I've been posting a lot of questions in the Random Running thread so maybe this is a better way of going about it.

Background
36 year old male. Been running for 7 years but only started properly focusing my training since January. Only learned what a tempo, LSR etc. were this year! Previous to that I just went out most days and ran 6 miles at as fast as I could manage. No direction or focus to my training. Had ran some half marathons and mixed in circuit training. But this year I really fell in love with running. Thanks to advice from people on here and chatting to some advanced runners I've met at many races this year I've manage to see significant improvements.

PB's;
5k - 18:22 - Parkrun (2017)
10k - 37:44 - Run Killarney (2017)
Half Marathon: 1:31:35 Charleville (2012). Most recent Half was in June - Half Thru the Heart which I did in 1:33. Extremely tough course and the distance was a little short.

Short to Medium term targets (over the next ~10 months);
5k - Sub 18
10k - Sub 37
Half Marathon - Sub 1:30

Long term targets/dreams;
5k - Sub 17
10k - Sub 35
Run my first Full Marathon (maybe by end of next year).
Run a really good Full Marathon.

Myself and my wife have a baby on the way so I'd say the training could be impacted for a while but I really hope I can keep it up to the same level.

I generally do two/three sessions a week (mix of intervals and tempo), one long run and the rest easy runs. Train 5-6 times a week with one day off.

I do all my Mon-Fri training within my one hour lunch break. LSR is either at the weekend or in the morning before work.

I know I should probably join a club. I would love to but we'll see how life changes once baby arrives. Even if I could do one session a week with a club I think it would be of benefit.

Last weeks training;
Mon: 7 miles steady/progressive starting at 7min/mile and finishing at 6:30min/mile. I'm thinking this run isn't of much benefit as it's in no mans land pacewise for me?
Tues: 5 x 1 mile intervals. Intervals at 5:50min/mile average with 3min recovery between.
Wednesday: 10k easy/recovery @ 7:30min/mile. Not sure if this should be slower but I read that it's bad to have easy and LSR paces the same i.e. too much running at the slow pace. The 7:30 pace felt easy.
Thursday: 15 mile LSR @ 8min/mile. Total time: 2 hours.
Friday: 4 mile recovery jog @ 8:50 min/mile.
Saturday: Parkrun 5k - 18:22.
Sunday: Rest

Probably overdid it a bit last week. Not sure to be honest but I feel good. I'm still learning. I'll be giving up the Parkruns in a couple of weeks for a while so I wanted to run a couple of them pretty hard to end up on a good note.

Any advice is greatly appreciated. I'm looking to improve and still relatively new to proper training so I'm willing to take any advice on board.

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Comments

Swashbuckler

Cheers K. Yeah definitely trying to get consistent 50mile+ weeks. Last three weeks have been consistent in that sense.

Enjoying it yeah albeit with the usual doubts of "is this the right session to be doing this week". Haha.

Theres also the knowledge that from September onwards I'll probably be off the racing grid for a while anyway so appreciating it all the more.

AuldManKing

nice work on that 5x1m session.

The recovery from these is interesting, given the pace they are run at.

In the past I've done 6x1m (a typical Daniels session) off 1 minute - and recently have done 4x5 minutes at 5.50 off 90 secs.
I reckoned that 90s was too small a recovery but felt that for the stage of season I was at - 90 secs should be where I'm at ('Should' vrs 'Actual' - a big difference) - the perceived wisdom of v02 workouts is that the recovery should be between 50%-90% of the length of the rep - so you're in a good time-slot there.

I need to balance my recoveries a bit better and not be so hard on myself!!

Swashbuckler

I hear ya. It's the one thing I doubted when setting the session. I recall doing some sessions at that pace last year. The 1k reps had 90s recovery. 1200m rep session had 2mins recovery. I figured 2.30 was sensible enough given I have considered my approach pretty aggressive lately. By the end of the session I think 2.30 was just about right.

Some of those Daniel's sessions look frightening on paper.

Duanington

Swashbuckler wrote: »

I hear ya. It's the one thing I doubted when setting the session. I recall doing some sessions at that pace last year. The 1k reps had 90s recovery. 1200m rep session had 2mins recovery. I figured 2.30 was sensible enough given I have considered my approach pretty aggressive lately. By the end of the session I think 2.30 was just about right.

Some of those Daniel's sessions look frightening on paper.

I find looking at the week before and the week ahead is a more balanced way to settle on recoveries.

I also look at how far out a target race is - is it a "key" session? One to simulate race conditions 2 weeks out from a race? Reduce the recoveries

Is it a general strength\tempo session with no real specifity? I tend to give a little more recovery to ensure form stays good, stride pattern stays consistent etc....which is all part of the reason for running the session anyway.

Swashbuckler

Duanington wrote:

I also look at how far out a target race is - is it a "key" session? One to simulate race conditions 2 weeks out from a race? Reduce the recoveries

On that, if you were doing a 10k race simulation type session how would you structure it? I've heard two very differing opinions on peaking for races, one of whom said longer splits are better eg mile splits like my session last week and another who said short, sharp splits are better eg. 400m off steady recoveries. Probably an oversimplified question as it's all about cumulative weeks etc but just curious on your thoughts.

skyblue46

You'll have to pardon my ignorance here but are the lengths of recoveries not a huge part in what the session achieves? Longer recoveries making you comfortable and easier at a pace and shorter recoveries aimed at increasing endurance primarily?

Swashbuckler

skyblue46 wrote:

You'll have to pardon my ignorance here but are the lengths of recoveries not a huge part in what the session achieves? Longer recoveries making you comfortable and easier at a pace and shorter recoveries aimed at increasing endurance primarily?

It's a good question. Typically when it has come to short recovery specific sessions I would say they have rarely been much longer than 1km reps. The 5x1M last week was really chosen to get me comfortable running at that pace. Shorter recoveries would've had me flagging and straining which I really wanted to avoid. My plan tomorrow is to have shorter 90s reps with reducing recoveries and trying to hold the recovery as steady as possible but prepared to jog if needed.

Duanington

Swashbuckler wrote: »

On that, if you were doing a 10k race simulation type session how would you structure it? I've heard two very differing opinions on peaking for races, one of whom said longer splits are better eg mile splits like my session last week and another who said short, sharp splits are better eg. 400m off steady recoveries. Probably an oversimplified question as it's all about cumulative weeks etc but just curious on your thoughts.

I suppose it comes down to the individual athlete really - someone may need more work at the sharper end and already have a really well developed threshold while someone else may have great turnover and leg speed but lack the bit of endurance to bring that out in a race.

For others, a combination might work well ( I suspect I fall into this category) - some threshold type longer reps, cutting down to faster, more "hurty" reps. Physically and mentally challenging.

I don't think there's one right answer here, I think it really depends on the individual needs

AuldManKing

Duanington wrote: »

I find looking at the week before and the week ahead is a more balanced way to settle on recoveries.

I also look at how far out a target race is - is it a "key" session? One to simulate race conditions 2 weeks out from a race? Reduce the recoveries

Is it a general strength\tempo session with no real specifity? I tend to give a little more recovery to ensure form stays good, stride pattern stays consistent etc....which is all part of the reason for running the session anyway.

For a tempo session, you need to keep the recoveries short anyway, but I agree with your point around being a 'key' session - reducing the recoveries and running at race pace is a good way to do this.

Skyblue: Recoveries differ for Race pace sessions (start high and reduce as you get nearer to race), Tempo sessions (need to be short to maintain blood lactate), Sharpening sessions (typically shorter & sharper pace) - V02 workouts are typically 50%-90% duration - Pure speed sessions have full recoveries.

AuldManKing

Duanington wrote: »

I suppose it comes down to the individual athlete really - someone may need more work at the sharper end and already have a really well developed threshold while someone else may have great turnover and leg speed but lack the bit of endurance to bring that out in a race.

For others, a combination might work well ( I suspect I fall into this category) - some threshold type longer reps, cutting down to faster, more "hurty" reps. Physically and mentally challenging.

I don't think there's one right answer here, I think it really depends on the individual needs

Fully agree with this - you need to find what works for you as not every training plan works for the individual.

OOnegative

Best of luck tomorrow evening, try not to elbow Mick to much!!! Run well!!

Swashbuckler

OOnegative wrote:

Best of luck tomorrow evening, try not to elbow Mick to much!!! Run well!!

Mick will be shoved aside. Front row centre. Cheers man.

Murph_D

All the best.

Swashbuckler

Tis a feckin day for the beach up here!

Singer

Swashbuckler wrote: »

Tis a feckin day for the beach up here!

No sandbagging

Have a great race.

OOnegative

Elbows didn’t work by looks of it, nice racing all the same P, very well done.

Swashbuckler

Now that's how you organize a race. Phenomenal. 36.23 chip time. Report will follow when I get a chance. Having some great family time up here. That's the best 10k I've been to in every aspect.

Swashbuckler

OOnegative wrote:

Elbows didnâ€™t work by looks of it, nice racing all the same P, very well done.

Believe it or not I got him on his cooldown.

skyblue46

Swashbuckler wrote: »

Now that's how you organize a race. Phenomenal. 36.23 chip time. Report will follow when I get a chance. Having some great family time up here. That's the best 10k I've been to in every aspect.

Looking forward to this report. It really is an amazingly well run event.

OOnegative

Swashbuckler wrote: »

Believe it or not I got him on his cooldown.

If DD was racing he would have gotten you a free pair of shades!!! Well done again P.

Swashbuckler

Dunshaughlin 10k Race Report

Dunshaughlin has been on my bucket list for a few years. Ever since I joined the Boards running community it was always the race (outside of DCM) that stood out to me in race reports. Given my love for the 10k it was always one I wanted to do and this was the year! At the beginning of the year I had a few races on my radar - Munster and County 4M, Adare and Charleville but Dunshaughlin was "the one". The rest were just bonus races. That being said I wasn't banking all on Dunshaughlin to determine if the year was a success or not. But all the same I wanted to put in a decent effort for this.

Giving Luke a break had meant the build up to this was a bit of a solo effort. In a way I'm glad. It forced me to think a lot about what are my strengths and weaknesses as a runner. More on that later. I put in a hard block. I know I've been neglecting my log recently so some people might not be up to speed on my training (get on Strava B or at least connect with me on Garmin!). It was an aggressive buildup with some tough sessions, filled with doubts as to whether I was "doing it right" and whether I was being overly aggressive on pace target. I had targeted 5.45-5.50 pace in a lot of the 10k specific stuff in the buildup. Given I couldn't manage that in the County 4M and GLR Relay I had my doubts but I was only coming back into shape then. In all honesty I felt great in the week running up to this. Legs came back really well through the mini "taper". It's not really a taper. Just a down week but a tuneup. Felt good albeit with some doubts over my ability to hold target pace for sub 36 through 10k.

I had asked the missus if herself and baba would join me for the weekend and we'd make a family weekend of it. Booked the Pillo Hotel in Ashbourne (a place I know only too well with work travels). We landed up Saturday afternoon. What a scorcher of a day. I was worried. Haha. I knew it was expected to cool as the day went on though. We spent the day in Tayto Park. Not ideal prep - long drive, sore ass, lots of walking and picking baba up but I didn't care. It was a great day and we really enjoyed it. Got back to the Pillo and some more little tasks to do before hitting the road for Dunshaughlin. Was a little rushed but got there in OK time. Tried to find S but no sign so headed for warmup and ran into one of Luke's coachees. Joined him for warmup and had a good chat. Not sure Luke realizes but he's coaching a lad who's aim is to beat him in DCM. If you're reading this you might want to throw a few dodgy sessions in his plan. Glad to have bumped into S on the warmup who was a little apprehensive about what lay ahead. Did some Drills and Strides and lined up. Conditions were perfect. Temp had cooled. All good.

Really liked the way they had "pens" for different target times. I found myself about four rows back. Not too far from some Olympians which was a novelty to say the least. Everything about this felt special. I felt nervous but really happy to be there. Gave myself one last pep talk. Told myself well done for getting to the start line in good shape. Brief pat on the back and now down to business. As always I remind myself that this will indeed hurt but the pain will be worth it regardless of the result.

Again, I liked the way there was no faffing about. A quick speech over the megaphone. Clearly from a lad who was very passionate about the race. Thought he expressed himself very well and got me pumped. Quick countdown and off we went.

I thought I had positioned myself fairly well. What you don't really get a feel for is just how many runners are in those front few rows. The start is wide (which is great) but four rows of that width converging is fairly significant. Trying to get position was fairly tricky. I've been there before though and best not to panic. An opening always comes. I did need to do a bit of dodging and shuffling as some of the groups were settling into a pace that was too slow for me. I can't remember exact points in the race so forgive me if I have some of the landmarks at wrong points. It took about a km for me to get into proper open space. I spent the first 2km passing quite a few people.

First km clocked at 3.36 (5.48/mile pace).
Pretty much bang on where I wanted to be and feeling relaxed with mega dry mouth.
Fantastic support passing through the town. Some guy on a megaphone calling out people's names and welcoming them to the race. Another lovely touch.
Second and third kms were standard enough. I was working but it was the right amount of working. It was what I would consider 10k effort.
Second and third kms clocked at 3.37/3.37 (5.49/mile pace). Pretty good. I had figured before the race that I'd need to be somewhere around 3.36/km.

Heres where the doubts started to kick in. From km 4 to 7 was really where I had to dig in a little and use my experience. The absolute best thing about this race is there is always some group around you working as hard as you are. That was a massive help. There was a few Trim AC lads just in front and I was focused on them (well I was focused on the internal hell but they were a good distraction).
Fourth and fifth kms clocked at 3.38 and 3.39 (5.51 and 5.53/mile pace).
From about the second km I had noticed my watch was beeping earlier and earlier before the road marker. By the fifth km it was beeping roughly 10 seconds before the halfway point. So given I was in or around where I needed to be it was hard to know if I was on track or not. To be honest I didn't really think about it too much. The pain was real and getting to the end was all that mattered.

Lots of things to think about at this point. This was really the key point of the race for me. Seeing those fourth and fifth km splits was concerning. I didn't feel like I could go any faster without risking ending up in the ditch at 8km. The possibility of those splits getting slower and slower was real. The internal dialogue really kicked in around halfway. You've been here before P. It's meant to feel like this. You don't train for it to be easy, you train so you can handle the suffering. I thought back (in my dazed race state) to the sessions I had done. How hard I had worked in some of them and convinced myself that, yes this is hellish but it's what I trained for. I can't turn around to the missus and my buddies at home and tell them I quit. Just keep going. Keep the legs turning over and see if you get a second (fourth?) wind. So on I went fully expecting to keep slowing but ademant I wouldn't go down without a fight. Also questioning if I ever want to race again. Haha
I can't remember at what point exactly but we hit a little bump in the road followed by a lovely downhill. I had recalled that the route map had a hill followed by a drop followed by a drag. Those were the main things to worry about on the course. Part of me hoped that bump was it. It wasn't. That being said the first proper hill was fine. It was short. By now I was pleased I had talked myself around. The downhill had come just at the right time for me.

Sixth and seventh kms clocked at 3.34/3.37 (5.45 and 5.49/mile pace).
I was back on track and super proud of myself. Haha. Not sure proud is the right word as all I could feel was pain but I definitely made a mental note and gave myself a mental pat on the back. I was over the worst of the negative thoughts by now. I knew the drag was coming though. Another really nice touch was seeing the names chalked on the road. At the time I didn't know what they were but assumed they were past winners. It was fairly motivating and very well placed right at a time when you need some inspiration. Kudos to the organizers for that. The drag was certainly that. I was still eyeing Trim AC lads up ahead ad had maintained touching distance. Got to the top of the drag in ok nick.
Eight and ninth kms clocked at 3.43/3.38 (5.59 and 5.50/mile).
By the 8th km I had given up doing the maths. My brain was barely able for 2+2. I figured, given my watch was beeping so far from the road markings that even if I had a watch pb I wasn't on for an official pb and that's all that matters. I took a glance at my watch after the ninth km beeped and saw I needed a spectacular last km for a pb. Haha.
Saw the road marker for 800m to go. As much as they feel like the longest 800m you'll ever do I genuinely appreciate seeing them in races. Not enough races have them. By now there are no huge heroics. Just push to the end. The profile says this is uphill but I swear I thought it was downhill? Optical illusion? The legs don't have a sprint in them. I had honestly paced the whole thing really well so there wasn't a quick finish in me. 400m to go. Amazing support from the locals. I wish all races were like this. Where's the feckin line. Longest 400m of my life!
My watch beeped about 11 seconds before the line.
Tenth km clocked at 3.34 (5.43/mile pace). 5.33 pace for the last 11 seconds. Haha.
Crossed the line at last!! Saw 36.2x on the clock in advance so I knew it wasn't a pb. Official chip time was 36.23. Not a pb but definitely a run to be proud of.

Took a few minutes to compose myself. Some lad tapped me on the back to say great running. I must have been his target. Nice of him. Really well organised finish line too. Another lad from Crusaders came over to say well done and fair play for travelling up from Limerick. Casual chat for a minute. Then he tells me he's just coming back after injury and ran 34.xx. Pb is 31.xx. Jaysus. These lads are ten a penny up in these parts of the country. Haha. Incredible really. Really says it all about the race that a 31.xx guy comes over to some randomer to say well done. I hung around for a bit hoping to see S but no sign so headed back to HQ for that super spread. Spent a few mins looking at the poster boards they had up of the fastest times and previous winners. Another nice touch. You really get a sense of history and occasion with Dunshaughlin 10k. It's not something I've experienced before. I really think it's a race everyone should do at least once. I've heard people say it's not a pb course. I'm not sure if I agree. It has a couple of stings but where else are you guaranteed a group to work with whether you're a 30min runner or a 60min runner. I loved it. Really really loved it. It's by far the best race I've been involved in. Maybe I have low standards, haha, but we don't get those kind of races in Limerick or surrounding counties apart from maybe a couple of exceptions. Ye are spoiled up this part of the country. Haha. Couldn't for the life of me find S and needed to get back to my heavily pregnant and hungry missus so hit the road. Snuck into the room with baba asleep in the corner and had a nice relaxing night until our inconsiderate neighbour's started drunkenly banging away at each other at 3.30am followed by loud conversation. Thankfully baba is a great sleeper. On the other hand I'm not and have been awake since.

So there you have it. Initially I was happy, then a little disappointed but upon reflection there are several reasons I should be happy.

Key takeaways;

The splits were probably the best I've done in a race. There was no major decline in pace. They were very consistent and I managed effort levels well.

Despite my dramatic descriptions of pain and suffering the form held more or less throughout. No straining or falling apart. I think I might sit down into my hips a bit when tiring which is good to note. I don't feel in bits like I did after limerick relay.

I'm convinced my Ennis pb was on a short course and now I'm effectively chasing an overoptimistic pb. It's fine though. Despite how it sounds my mindset hasn't moved away from continued improvement in running ability over time. Race times are not my gauge of success but it's still nice to run good times every now and then

This felt like a stronger run than my pb effort last year. Everything about it was more "solid". I'm tempted to say there's more to come but I said that after Ennis 15 months ago. I shouldn't forget Charleville I guess. But I definitely went a bit backwards towards the end of the year last year so I've come into this year lacking momentum. It's fine though. Sometimes life events get in the way of running progress. With baba no.2 on the way I fully expect I'll probably go into next year lacking momentum too. We'll see I guess.

Key concern;

And this is the interesting part I guess. Given I was responsible for my own training for this block it forced me to really think about me as a runner. It's often hard to tell during training where exactly your strengths and weaknesses are. Sometimes a race will put them out in front of you plain as day. After Dunshaughlin I'm struggling a bit to figure out exactly how to progress. I ran well. I got myself into 5.4x/mile for a 10k which is in or around pb shape. I held the pace reasonably well and didn't fall apart which tells me endurance is pretty good (not spectacular but pretty good). I know I can run fast. I don't think speed is a limiting factor in my performance. So if endurance is not too bad and speed is not too bad, how do you push on to the next level? Is it a matter of keeping patient and keep doing what you're doing and eventually when I'm 65 I'll be a spectacular runner? (tongue in cheek). That's the main niggle I have in my mind I guess. Where to next?

But I don't want to end on a negative. Dunshaughlin was super. I loved it. Everything about the organization was just as you would want it with several extra touches to make it all the more special. A stunning standard of runner and a pleasure to run with them.

As I finish up, baba has just woke. Thankfully the couple next door are asleep. Hopefully baba is in a playful mood and looking to make as much noise as possible. Might even throw on Peppa Pig at full volume for a while. Alright baba, time to walk the halls. Life is good.

healy1835

Nice report P. No harm with a bit of introspection after a race. You've acknowledged that you might have been a bit aggressive and shoehorned a couple of sessions in for this block. Plus you have to remember that it hasn't exactly been plain sailing for you since Charleville and you eased off in intensity because it was needed. For me this is just another step in the right direction.
You, like myself, have reached a level where we're (relatively) what one might call half decent runners and the gains are smaller now. You had a great performance in Charleville (inspired by myself I might add) and then you had a to take a couple of steps back. Now you're almost back to where you were. Can't give you any specifics as regards your training as we both know I'm not great at that sort of stuff

but you seem to be moving in the right direction, and if you get into HM pb shape this autumn then I'd be confident enough that the 10k PB will go as well in the process.

Bluesquare

Well done - enjoyed your report - made me examine my own effort . I really loved the race as well and liked the wide start and the fact that there was always people doing a similar effort around you . I couldn’t imagine moving at your pace but at a level where every second counts I’m not sure it’s an “honest ‘ course for pacing - while the there are no real hills to talk about there are lots of hidden inclines and declines.

Kellygirl

Brilliant report P. You sound so confident and strong and I’m delighted for you.

shotgunmcos

Thanks for the report good read and well done on a solid performance. The self talk is very healthy!

It's not complicated. You say with confidence that you feel you have the speed and endurance for 36mins?

Where is your speed and endurance for 35mins? If you can bang out 3:30 1k reps no probs, shorten recovery or progressively lengthen reps. I guess what I'm suggesting is train in the 35min ballpark! (As if it was that easy)

MY BAD

Excellent running and report!! Well done man.

AuldManKing

Great racing there, super stuff and a great read.

I get where you are coming from on the 'how to progress' part.
I've seen guys who were our level just move on so much in the past 18 months (Marc is 1 example - Evan is another) - their training is the same/similar as ours - I guess they just have different genes or fibers.

I was considering not doing DCM and spending a lot of time at 5k stuff (& faster) in an effort to really work on top end speed and 5k type endurance - trying to bring 5k's to under 5.30/mile pace that sort of stuff.
SGMC gives 1 way - by shortening recovery / lenghtening the reps

One thing I've taken from THE BOOK - and its rather simple. Is the area of Progression.
Daniels doesn't really have clear progressions that are too visible as the sessions are a bit nuts, but the sorts of progressions that I'm working on now are visible to me, that brings confidence in executing the session and seeing how the next week progresses that...and so on.

I'd say that if you pick a race in the distance and work on a plan that progresses the sessions (Intervals / Tempos / Long run) to a certain point prior to the race - then you've a great shot at executing a good race. Providing you dont go wandering around Tayto Park before hand.

Anyway - thanks for passing on the recording of the pair next door.....appreciated.

KSU

Swashbuckler wrote: »

Tried to find S but no sign so headed for warmup and ran into one of Luke's coachees. Joined him for warmup and had a good chat. Not sure Luke realizes but he's coaching a lad who's aim is to beat him in DCM. If you're reading this you might want to throw a few dodgy sessions in his plan.

At this rate I will definitely have my work cut out for me. His time last night was faster than I have ran in 2 years

With regards the training side of things I think it is definitely something that is weighing on your mind. Back yourself, you have been running long enough and learned enough since the days we started working together to know enough about effort and what works for you.

I think some of the doubts probably spring from mentalities instilled over the past 12 months. Training philosophies are never stagnant we continue to learn and grow, nobody (myself especially) has things figured out just because stuff is more aggressive now is not a bad thing as long as its not 100% aggressive 100% of the time. The one thing I will say is that changes in training can sometimes take immediate effect while other times can take a bit of time to bed in so you could well spring on from this and smash things 4-6 weeks down the line. The key is patience that is why it is crucial to focus on the process rather than the outcome. We are an impatient breed and want everything straight away but half the battle is consistency and the best way to do that is enjoying the day to day and have faith the results will come rather than chopping and changing for the sake of it in order to crack the secret.

AuldManKing wrote: »

I get where you are coming from on the 'how to progress' part.
I've seen guys who were our level just move on so much in the past 18 months (Marc is 1 example - Evan is another) - their training is the same/similar as ours - I guess they just have different genes or fibers.

I was considering not doing DCM and spending a lot of time at 5k stuff (& faster) in an effort to really work on top end speed and 5k type endurance - trying to bring 5k's to under 5.30/mile pace that sort of stuff.
SGMC gives 1 way - by shortening recovery / lenghtening the reps

One thing I've taken from THE BOOK - and its rather simple. Is the area of Progression.
Daniels doesn't really have clear progressions that are too visible as the sessions are a bit nuts, but the sorts of progressions that I'm working on now are visible to me, that brings confidence in executing the session and seeing how the next week progresses that...and so on.

While I get where the lads are coming from regarding the train like a 35 min guy personally I am not really a fan of this. Effort is key we should always be training to current fitness levels. The progress is made by stringing this together week after week, month after month (and yes sometimes year after year) and getting more controlled in that. As corny as it sounds you want to aspire to a zen type stage of training so that by the time races come around you can hover at current PB pace for as long as you need to before kicking on and utilizing the gained fitness. Economy of effort is how you improve as most of us have the top end capacity to go beyond our wildest dreams but its how long it takes us to get to that point (it's only going one way if you reach that at 3k in a 10k race) that determines our race performances.

Progression happens at different rates for different people for a host of reasons (training may look similar but personal background and how a human adapts vary widely) this is why it is important to trust in the approach you have no matter what the approach is because you need almost a blinkered confidence (as long as it is based on common sense and not delusion) that what you are doing will improve you.

Take M for example when he came to me first he told me what he wanted to run come 2020 and said he didn't care what he ran in mean time as long as it was moving in the right direction. His jumps admittedly have been even beyond my wildest dreams at this stage but it has helped give him confidence in the process that can be hard at times when you plateau (sometimes that requires change and other times it is just patience)

(sorry for the tangent)

Swashbuckler

KSU wrote:

The key is patience that is why it is crucial to focus on the process rather than the outcome. We are an impatient breed and want everything straight away but half the battle is consistency and the best way to do that is enjoying the day to day and have faith the results will come rather than chopping and changing for the sake of it in order to crack the secret.

KSU wrote:

can be hard at times when you plateau (sometimes that requires change and other times it is just patience)

Great post L and thanks for the input. I get everything your saying and I've quoted these parts specifically.

I get what you mean about patience and having a blinkered confidence in your approach. I think you know me well enough after the last couple of years to know I'm not after shortcuts. The dilemma and doubts for me come from this - how do you know if your approach is right or not? I know plenty of people with blinkered confidence in their approach and the approach is just plain wrong. Who's to say my approach is not just plain wrong? I could have blinkered confidence in an approach that could just lead me down a dead end of zero progress. I know that's an extreme but I figure any good runner should try to figure out what works for them and I can't say I've figured that out...... Yet..... Hence me questioning whether it is a matter of patience or a change in approach. how do you determine if a change in approach is needed?
I'd be happy to run nothing but threshold runs for three years if I knew it was what I needed and would make me take a big jump. I'd be happy to be patient if I knew the approach was probably right and would bring me on. It's those doubts that make it hard.
It's very easy to be consistently wrong!

As an aside Jesus christ, M has made some progress. Incredible stuff.

Swashbuckler

healy1835 wrote:

HM pb shape this autumn then I'd be confident enough that the 10k PB will go as well in the process.

All going well I'll be in nappy changing shape come Autumn!

Bluesquare wrote:

Well done - enjoyed your report - made me examine my own effort . I really loved the race as well and liked the wide start and the fact that there was always people doing a similar effort around you . I couldnâ€™t imagine moving at your pace but at a level where every second counts Iâ€™m not sure itâ€™s an â€œhonest â€˜ course for pacing - while the there are no real hills to talk about there are lots of hidden inclines and declines.

Cheers for that. I have to say, running in packs definitely hid those inclines and declines.

Kellygirl wrote:

Brilliant report P. You sound so confident and strong and Iâ€™m delighted for you.

Cheers K. Can't say I thought that but I guess you're probably right. Confidence has grown. Apart from planning my training. Haha.

shotgunmcos wrote:

Where is your speed and endurance for 35mins? If you can bang out 3:30 1k reps no probs, shorten recovery or progressively lengthen reps. I guess what I'm suggesting is train in the 35min ballpark! (As if it was that easy)

Yeah I hear you. I'm not sure it's that simple though. Maybe I overthink it but training planning for me is very complicated. I don't think you can keep progressing sessions endlessly. When should you step back, when should you go aggressive, should you shift the balance to more tempo threshold stuff, or speed stuff. Like I said, I over think these things. Haha.

Mellow Yellow 26.2 wrote:

Excellent running and report!! Well done man.

Cheers man. Happy to see your progress in the last while. Would be happy to hit the roads with you before the end of the year.

AuldManKing wrote:

Anyway - thanks for passing on the recording of the pair next door.....appreciated.

You are more than welcome. Happy to say Baba was in a boisterous mood this morning and I was seriously encouraging her to ramp it up.